• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

MXE and opiate receptor affinity

I have a strong feeling that, like ketamine, MXE's purported "opioid" effects are only present at abnormally high doses and do not contribute to the recreational "flavour" of the drug.

Someone I respect as much as you from another forum said concerning this:

Methoxetamine is an opioid prodrug. If the methoxy is deprotected (a small bit is in the body) then 10-20mg will wipe out anyone - even someone with a habit. If the =O is para then 1-2mg does it!!!


BTW if the structure doesn't remind you of an opioid then look at the work of Daniel Lednicer:



4-Amino-4-arylcyclohexanones and Their Derivatives, a Novel Class of Analgesics. 1. Modification of the Aryl Ring
Daniel Lednicer, Philip F. VonVoigtlander and D. Edward Emmert

The Upjohn Company, Research Laboratories, Kalamazoo, Michigan 49001. Received August 7, 1979

J. Med. Chem 1980, 23, p424-430

He's proven to be quite knowledgeable on a very many other things, so I put more stock into this than I usually would from just anybody. (Note however, he's saying "If the methoxy is deprotected" 10-20mg of that, not Methoxetamine, will. But only that "a small bit is" metabolized from MXE in vivo.)
 
^^^ NMDA antagonists have been shown to prevent tolerance and prevent withdrawal when coadministered with opioids.
 
I bought MXE because I read on here about its opioid like effects and I believe it was you laCster who mentioned it along with others. I wouldn't say I get that feeling too much, but my pain does go down significantly so for that I am grateful. I do believe it is also why I like to use it so much even tho its bad for a person to use on any type of regular basis. Or thought to be anyway. My anxiety also drops dramatically at the low doses. I know this isn't much of a contribution but I thought I'd share how it makes me feel in reference to the opiate feeling.
 
I've noticed a lot of the people who mention they did not get any opioid effects from MXE have taken rather large doses.

With Ketamine I found it to be the opposite - I have only once noticed opioid like effects from Ketamine and they were when I consumed a gram within a few minutes, bordering on the line between a great experience and unconsciousness - leaving Ketamine's opioid effects relatively inaccessible.

However with MXE I have experienced significant opioid effects with just 15mg sublingually, what seems to be a rather low dose, and I actually noticed less of these effects when I raised my dose to 35mg, though this may have been a tolerance issue so I can't be 100% sure.

This leads me to suspect, and this is purely speculation (but I figured maybe someone a little more experienced with pharmacology etc might be able to say if I'm talking rubbish or not) - that MXE has far more potent opioid action than Ketamine, and that the Dopamine Reuptake Inhibition action of MXE interferes with it's opiate action somewhat, seemingly reducing the effects when one takes too much and is over-stimulated. I initially believed it might have been the dissociation interfering, but if that were the case, it wouldn't make sense that Ketamine's opioid effects appear only at higher doses, and MXE's seemingly only at lower doses.

Having never combined opioids and stimulants I don't know if users of these combinations tend to notice a similar blending of the effects that results in the experience feeling less stimulating but also less groggy - a sort of brew of effects as I seem to be experiencing with MXE. Any comments?
 
Fuuuuck this topic again. There has been no evidence that methoxetamine has any effect on the MOR. And plenty of evidence that it doesn't........SAR wise, no withdrawal upon protracted use, and no effect when naloxone is administered. And surely no one is going to argue that it has a higher affinity for the MOR than naloxone? Then again, judging how often this dead horse is beaten, someone probably will.......;)

Cheers
 
There has been no evidence that methoxetamine has any effect on the MOR. And plenty of evidence that it doesn't........SAR wise, no withdrawal upon protracted use, and no effect when naloxone is administered.

These are my sentiment on the issue too, but until journal papers are published with some Ki's then all the dreamers will keep dreaming.
 
Does MXE lower opiate tolerance?

I'm a little confused by MXE. I've read it is an opiate and read that it isn't. Ketamine is known for, among other things, lowering tolerance to opiates. Does MXE do the same or the opposite? If MXE is an opiate itself, then anyone taking it in hopes of lowering opiate tolerance would be doing the opposite...actually increasing there tolerance. Does anyone know or have a clear answer to this? Does MXE lower opiate tolerance?
 
Mea culpa, it was F&B and then later I that suggested it might have opioid activity, but I don't think it was ever confirmed and now everyone suspects it has none.
 
I think that problem is more people who read such learned speculation but change "might have" to "has" in their heads. IIRC, doesn't 3-oh-pcp have significant opioid affinity? it's not an unreasonable inference to expect similar of methoxetamine.

ebola
 
I'm a big fan of combining dissociatives with opiates (I'm opiate dependent)- the synergy of the two substances is absolutely incredible, like pressing the pause button on reality (which is also why I'm hopelessly addicted to it).

In my experience there is a massive difference between taking ketamine/opiates and taking methoxetamine/opiates- while a mixture of ketamine/morphine will provide the Mu/NMDA activity that I'm looking for, the ketamine seems to do little to potentiate the opiates, the effects simply blend. Methoxetamine is a completely different ballgame- while you do still enjoy that Mu/NMDA 'signature' (which is probably why I'm such a big fan of methadone- dextromethadone is an NMDA antagonist) the methoxetamine strongly potentiates the opiates- I can take half my usual dose of morphine with metoxetamine and yet I will nod twice as hard.

So methoxetamine does have some influence over your opiate receptors- it is, hands down, the strongest potentiator I've ever experienced. In fact, most supposed potentiators (for instance, antihistamines) don't actually seem to potentiate your dose, they just make you a bit more drowsy- MXE actually makes 40mg of morphine feel like 80mg, overlaid with NMDA antagonism. But it definately does not excert any 'true' opiate effects, in the sense that it will not stop me going into withdrawal, neither does it seem to 'put off' the withdrawals for a few hours (as benzos seem to- if I take morphine before I go to bed I'll wake up sick, if I take morphine & temazepam before I go to bed I'll wake up ok, then go into withdrawal and hour or two after I get up).

It's definately a strange one. Lets hope someone decides to do some proper research into this fascinating compound.
 
Very interesting Limonov...
Do you find it lowers your opiate tolerance the way ketamine would? How much MXE do you take to potentiate your opiate? Do you just take a low dose of MXE with your opiate?

I think this is very interesting if it does in fact allow an opiate dependent person to lower their dose and perhaps will help greatly with detoxing from opiates. Sorry for all the questions but with all the opiate dependent people out there, it seems this MAY be of great use in allowing them to lower tolerance and not be so dependant on high amounts of opiates to function.
 
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Very interesting Limonov...
Do you find it lowers your opiate tolerance the way ketamine would? How much MXE do you take to potentiate your opiate? Do you just take a low dose of MXE with your opiate?

I think this is very interesting if it does in fact allow an opiate dependent person to lower their dose and perhaps will help greatly with detoxing from opiates. Sorry for all the questions but with all the opiate dependent people out there, it seems this MAY be of great use in allowing them to lower tolerance and not be so dependant on high amounts of opiates to function.

I never really found that Ketamine lowered my opiate tolerance- it may have slowed the rate that my tolerance increased, but my tolerance has only really gone in one direction ;)- so I'm not sure if I can make a comparision. I'm fairly sceptical of the whole 'NMDA Antagonists lower your opiate tolerance' thing, I think that the truth about that whole theory is that over time it is possible to taper down in a fairly comfortable fashion by decreasing your dose of opiates and 'boosting' their effects with NMDA anatagonists.

How much MXE I would take would vary, most of the time I would take 50-150mg (plugged, my normal dose of MXE) with opiates (plugged a hell of a lot of methoxetamine/o-desmethyltramadol cocktails). However, this is was more because of my taste for opiates/MXE than because it was necessary- it seemed to work as a potentiator with significantly lower doses 5-15mg plugged (5mg plugged being the threshold dose for me).

MXE may be of some value when it comes to detoxing, however due to its ability to cause mania I think that it would be entirely unsuitable during acute withdrawal- manic thinking and a complete inability to sleep would probably not be the best thing during withdrawals. I imagine that it would be possible to use MXE to assist in tapering- you could even do it as some form of 'replacement' (first day 90% opiates/10% MXE, third day 75% opiates/25% MXE).

Maybe I should attempt to use MXE to help me taper, I don't think it could do any harm.
 
I never really found that Ketamine lowered my opiate tolerance- it may have slowed the rate that my tolerance increased, but my tolerance has only really gone in one direction ;)-

Semantics. Lowered "quicker" possibly then, because cessation of opiate administration, i.e. not doing opiates, lowers opiate tolerance. :p
 
Maybe I should attempt to use MXE to help me taper, I don't think it could do any harm.

tl;dr just saw this line and had to say something:

Using MXE to taper off anything is a bad idea IMO just because it can be very fiendish once you start and I have found out the hard way that it does not help with opiate w/d's at all. I am too tired to read your whole post tho. Sorry. :)
 
interesting... i had found that a shitty batch of MXE held my suboxone WDs at bay for about 6 hrs and then i needed to redose. the redosing could've been psychological though.
 
The first few times I used MXE I experienced effects that, If one to describe them to someone else, would sound like they were describing an opiate... analgesia, a pleasant body numbness, relaxation, a warmth in the limbs like a gentle massage etc. Despite the similarity in the effects, they were in every way, qualitively different to an opiate. It's easy to see how someone who is perhaps not very experienced with an opate high couid mistake this for μ activity. This opiate like effect seems to disappear quite quickly with tolerance, even faster than MXE's stimulating effects. At least with the DRI stim effect, absence for a couple weeks is enough to feel it again. But other than those first few experiences, I've only gotten the opiate-like effects when having abstained for a couple months or more, and then tolerance going right back up again with one dose!


I have to agree with limonov with MXE's ability to potentiate opiates!. I'm a huge fan of poppy pods and prefer them to even pure morphine due the gentle stimulation and motivational effects, and sheer versatility of the high. I first started with pods when I had next to no opiate tolerance, just a couple experiences with tramadol, with codeine, and few disappointing experiments with kratom. MXE hit the market shortly after and although I'ver never been particularly interested in dissociatives, I was interested in the tolerance prevention of NMDA antagonists.

Initially, my tolerance grew fairly rapidly from needing 2 large gigantheum pods to get fairly high to needing 4-5. This was from using roughly bi-weekly for about a month. I then started taking threshold doses of MXE every time I used the pods. The first thing I noticed about this combination was the intensity of the mental euphoria. I wouldn't necessarily say it potentiated the high as a whole, but rather focused mostly on a particular element of it that felt predominantely dopaminergic in nature,. I felt particularly confident, sociable and surprisingly energetic. This was more than just the DRI effect of the MXE too, as it felt much more like the stimulant effect of poppy pods than of MXE. Over time the potentiation seemed to become somewhat more wholesome, rather than predominantely stimulating

I continued using pods an average of twice a week for a good few months, taking threshold doses of MXE every time. In that time my dose went from 4-5 pods to 6-8 for a fairly strong dose. At some point I ran out of MXE and just didn't bother with it any more... silly really. I carried on usig the pods and my tolerance went through the roof! A few months later, having even taken a month or so out to try and let my tolerance drop and limiting myself to once a week, I was taking 10-12 pods to get high. At this point I started using the MXE again, but It was nowhere near as effective as it once was at preventing tolerance.

I assume that its effectiveness at preventing tolerance is dependant upon doses used, so the higher the opiate dose, the more NMDA antagonist required to counter the increase in tolerance. Unfortunately, there is only so high you can go with the MXE dose. Whilst threshold doses potentiate some aspects of the high, dissociative doses will ruin an otherwise amazing opiate experience. The dissociative mental effects of the MXE overpower the subtle, yet all compasing, warm, peaceful mental effects of the opiate. I've been using pods now, taking a couple 1-2 month breaks for 16 or so months and require about 15 pods. I've struck a nice balance of occaisional use with MXE, with the odd break that seems to keep tolerance fairly steady, although still on the increase. I've not had any in about 2 months, and probably won't get any more for another month at least. It'll be interesting to see how my tolerance is doing after this fairly long break.

Oh, and MXE (and probably other NMDA antagonists) don't appear to actually lower tolerance, only prevent it. Or at least Slow it down. Other folk may find it's even more effective than I depending on their opiate of choice. Thanks to enzyme saturation, the pod high lasts an incredibly long time with a peak lasting around 6 hours (although highly dose dependant) followed by a slow decline in effects in which you can still feel a definate opiate effect more than 24 hours later. Since you'll likely enter a long, noddy sleep for 12+ hours following the initial peak, you'll not be redosiing on the MXE for some time. Pods are notorious for causing tolerance to sktrocket due to the incredible amount of time it can take to clear the morphine from ones system.


Lengthy reply, but I'm sure some folk will find it useful.
 
I am not too familiar with MXEs receptor profile, but it clearly has a stronger mu effect than ketamine. I have been using MXE once or twice a week to allow me to go up to 8 hr of sleep. Since summer when I got off suboxone and took up kratom, I cannot sleep more than 5hr because the fucking goddamn stupid kratom shakes and RLS wake me up, reliably.

MXE, as much as I don't care for the 'high' it offers, does allow me a full 8hr sleep than I need. I use 20mg for this purpose a couple times a week always around 9pm. If I take it any later, it keeps me up all night. I hate kratom and MXE and this whole mess but all I seem to be able to do is post at Bluelight about it.
 
I don't understand how you can equate getting 8 hours of sleep with having mu-agonism, or even stronger mu-agonism than ketamine. There are some studies out there that show ketamine works as a therapeutic tool for RLS and it clearly doesn't have much if any noticeable opioid effects. It's well known that NMDA-antagonists like ketamine decrease the required dose of mu-opioid agonists for equal analgesic properties as a higher dose of the opioid alone, but that doesn't mean this is the mu agonism at work. Some of the best opioid drugs used for severe RLS have NMDA-antagonist properties (tramadol, methadone, levorphanol, propoxyphene), giving speculative evidence that the NMDA-antagonism may be a pharmacological benefit to the opioid for treatment, or that nmda-antagonism alone like with ketamine could be enough to treat RLS symptoms. My neurologist has told me that propoxyphene was one of the better RLS opioid drugs when he could script it (better than non-nmda-antagonist opioids like hydrocodone), and being that propoxyphene is a shitty opioid, there must be once again some evidence that even having NMDA-antagonism alone can be enough to help produce a better nights sleep.

I really don't see any proof at all the MXE has any relevant mu-opioid agonism that would produce anything discernible to a human that could be called mu-opioid effects/opiate like pharmacodynamics. Seems like people just want to fantasize about combining the wonders of mu opioid agonism and nmda-antagonism dissociative into one drug. The mind is a powerful thing and can create something you feel validates a rationalization to assume so.
 
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