up to 300 μg
up to 450 μg
up to 600 μg
up to 900 μg
up to 1200 μg
a dose higher than 1200 μg
I was actually thinking about making a thread asking if there was a thread on this. I will have the chance to test it out soon and am fairly excited. I think I only read one report on it? Can't even remember properly. What would everyones thoughts on a proper starter dose would be? The only reference i've even seen is the Wiki article that states its active at 400-650 ug insufflated. Also the lone TR. Many people were discussing using the new HPBC method of administering the NBOMe's a poster on here has been studying. Any thoughts on this? Hope to see this thread get some posts going!
Last edited by Help?!?!; 11-08-2011 at 05:11.
No worries - I'm sure this thread will be filling up with all kinds of questions and reports soon enough
I think honestly the only poster who has commented on this so far has been Erny - everyone else is going to be a pioneer.
yeah, i'm unaware of anything aside from erny's TR. Hopefully i'll be able to get my hands on some in a couple weeks as well
I wouldn't start with more than 100-200µg just to be safe, as there's next to no info on this at all. I'd imagine potency will be similar to the other halogenated 25x-NBOMe's though.
As far as the complexation of nbome's with hydroxy-propyl-beta-cyclodextrin, I am certain that when complexed, you go from 50% to 95% buccal absorption in my experience. 95% absorption of hydrophobic drugs complexed to HPBCD has been reported in studies by Dr. Joseph Pitha on sublingually applied HPBCD-complexed testosterone (quite hydrophobic just like the nbome molecules) whereas normally, only 40% or so absorption of testosterone base powder is achieved without complexation, HPBCD complexation causes quite a dramatic jump in absorption and effectiveness in 20 minutes time. Studies can be found on-line and in the links I give in the big and dandy 25c thread.
Have posted instructions on how this is done in the big and dandy 25c-nbome thread and also the small and fancy 25i-nbome thread. In my experience, HPBCD complexed nbome applied to upper gum in the form of a 1.75" x 5/16" wide filter paper strip (the rectangle blotter cut from #103 filter paper) does indeed achieve the exact same potency as the same amount applied nasally, so yes, buccally applied HPBCD-complexed nbome is equipotent to non-complexed nasally applied nbome. I've seen the "beta-cyclodextrin" version of this stuff on auction sites, but perhaps maybe someday, someone will offer the hydroxy-propyl version of this. It's possible that beta-cyclodextrin would work just about as well as hydroxy-propyl-beta-cyclodextrin but I have no idea as I only use the hydroxy-propyl version. Swim got his HPBCD powder many years ago from a sports company that went out of business shortly after the pro-hormone ban of the Bush years. There are actually a couple places (outside of auction sites ) that directly have Hydroxypropyl Beta Cyclodextrin. In any case, there are hundreds of research papers on the science of HPBCD, "Trappsol" and other fancy sounding brand names are currently used for the stuff these days it seems.
How long/well does HPBCD store? Apparently very well, after almost 7 years, the HPBCD was stored in the original plastic screw lid container it came in, still as good/fresh as the day it was opened. No special storage conditions needed, just keep in a cool dark & dry place at room temperature.
Last edited by tregar; 11-08-2011 at 17:02.
I am very glad to hear you believe buccal vs insufflation to be nearly identical in potency. I would have to assume this is just an educated guess though correct? It does however seem to be pretty accurate. I will test this for myself when I receive 25B and HPBCD. I also noticed many popular auction sites had BCD. Its BA is ridiculously lowered compared to HPBCD according to the internet. There are a few places where HPBCD can be acquired today though so no worries. Fairly excited to try it out and see how well it really works.
Thanks for the comments Help?!?!. Yes, that's very true, there are a few places where HPBCD can be gotten directly with a little searching with no hassles, as for example the "sports supplements" companies are able to get it no problems. I quoted the general research paper from Joseph Pitha in the 25c-nbome big and dandy thread on the 95% absorption of sublingual testosterone base in 20 minutes. Testosterone is extremely hydrophobic with a solubility in water of something like 0.039mg per ml, practically in-soluble, however, when complexed to HPBCD, it becomes 100% water soluble. Guess what else is very hydrophobic (water-fearing)?, yes, that's right the nbome's, especially 25i-nbome. HPBCD can be thought of as like a "molecular condomn" that traps drug molecules in it's donut-shaped hole so that they can be delivered directly to surfaces of the mucosal cavities in the mouth with high effectiveness. At last, there is a healthy role for sugar molecules to play other than destroying our health and well-being my contributing to diabetes and sugar/glucose regulation problems, fat storage, insulin surges, etc, LOL. Yes, the HPBCD-complexed molecule is so effective bucally that I will never use nasal methods again, it works that well imho.
In most cases, only one molecule is included in the cavity of HPBCD. In the case of some low molecular weight guests, more than one molecule of guest might fit into the cavity. In the case of some high molecular weight molecules, more than one molecule of cyclodextrin might bind to the guest. Only a portion of the molecule must fit into the cavity to form a complex. As a result, a one-to-one molar ratio is not always achieved, especially with high or low molecular weight guests and some prelimiary complex formation and analysis is needed to determine relative amounts of cyclodextrin and guest to be added for complexation.1. Water
HPBCD is very soluble in water. Substitution of the hydroxyl groups of the BCD disrupts the network of hydrogen bonding around the rim of the BCD. As a result of disruption of the hydrogen-bonding network, the hydroxyl groups interact much more strongly with water resulting in increased solubility compared to BCD. Solubilities of HPBCD are typically listed at >60% at amnbient temperature. As the concentraion becomes higher, viscosity begins to increase and solubility determinations become difficult to perform due to slow filtration rates and at very high solids levels, slow dissolution because of high viscosities making mixing difficult.
HPBCD is more soluble in solvents than BCD, but extensive work has not been done to characterize the solubility of HPBCD in solvents. The table below shows the solubility in selected alcohols.
95% ethanol 225g/100ml
solubility of HPBCD in ethanol-water mixtures:
0% ethanol concentration: 360g/100ml
20% ethanol concentration: 340g/100ml
40% ethanol concentration: 320g/100ml
60% ethanol concentration: 295g/100ml
80% ethanol concentration: 265g/100ml
95% ethanol concentration: 225g/100ml
Hydroxyproply Beta Cyclodextrin (HPCD) (CAS #94035-02-6) is a partially substituted poly (hydroxypropyl) ether of beta cyclodextrin (BCD). The empiracal formula is: (C42 H70-n035). (C3 H7 O)n it contains not less than 10.0 percent and not more than 45.0 percent hydroxypropoxy(-OCH2CHOHCH3) groups. The structure is shown below where
R represents either hydrogen or a hydroxypropoxy group.
R=CH2CH(OH)CH3 or H
The solubility of HPBCD is quite high, exceeding 600mg/ml in water, and exceeding 225mg/ml in 95% etoh. Viscosity is not an issue in concentrations below 55%
The molecular weight of HPBCD is 1375.36
The molecular weight of NBome-2c-I is 427.277
The molecular weight of testosterone is 288.42 (95% sublingual absorption achieved in 20 minutes when complexed to HPBCD according to published research (Pitha, Joseph). This figure falls to 50% or less when it is not complexed to HPBCD and applied sublingually over the same 20 minute period.
Dazed (on HPBCD-complexed hormones):
The conventional penetration enhancers like alcohols or polyethylene glycol act by disrupting the lipid layers of membranes.(3) That is a big source of irritation from the old formula, and this irritation can thus be avoided by the use of CD’s (cyclodextrins). Another advantage is, once administered, the steroid is rapidly absorbed sublingually. Nearly 95% of the steroid will be absorbed within 20 minutes. This also causes the need for multiple doses throughout the day.
Last edited by tregar; 11-08-2011 at 19:34.
I've also had my eye on this for a while and wondered quietly why so little info is available. So, i came across the Ettrup-paper which has been mentioned in a few other threads. It looks like 25B-NBOMe is way better at crossing the BBB than 25I-NBOMe and 25C-NBOMe (or any of the other drugs tested). Also the binding affinity is better as is the receptor activation. So, I'm guessing that using tregars ROA (nice work btw) the dose should be about half or less than 25I-NBOMe
The doses are in the 200-1000 mcg range like those of the others NBOMes with halogens. Many find 700 mcg to be suitably enough, some claim it is a little too much.
I personally do not like this chem, it is not as rewarding as D or I or C. Just a potent PEA-psychedelic with DOB undertones. It may also have pronounced bodyload. And many people complained about vasoconstriction being too strong for them to like it.
Would you say that this is becoming more widely available? I'm not trying to source but Im quite interested in it.
I've yet to see this offered by a "mainstream" vendor where it didn't turn out to be a scam or a failure.
This compound is far superior to 2ce imo/ime.
It was such a euphoric blast
here is some information i acquired
Active from 1mg. Over 4mg it is rather strong.
This works for 5-8h in 1-3mg range over this it can lasts after 8-10h
This dissolves well in ethanol if you want to make blotter
and also well in water if you want to make liquid dropper.
Works sublingual (under tongue)or insufflated (sniff) way.
because the chem is decaying in stomach
1 - 2 mg
2- 3 mg
+ 5 mg
the agent is 99% pure
but it was cut with about 50% dextrose
be careful apparently some 25b-nbome that has been going around has been cut with dextrose "about 50%"...
Last edited by swansongold; 21-11-2011 at 21:24.
I'd repeat if you don't remember: 2C-B-NBOMe is the most common NBOMe-PEA in Russia and is the one that is the most explored. I probably took too much of it as well as DOB before, and I am wery familliar with theirs effects. To the point where I don't know what much to say about them, such 4-bromine substituted PEAs are a sort of archetypycal thing to me.
2 mg of pure substance is my common dose, 3 mg is a heavy dose. I was able to feel it at 0,1 mg i/m. For the majority of population 0,5 mg is a common dose, 0,7 mg is a strong dose, and 1 mg is a heavy one.
lol that must be the same vendor i got mine from
didnt think it being cut with dextrose would be a big issue tho
The Russians get all the cool drugs. 25B *and* Krokodil?! Amazing!
How is krokodil amazing?????
I have 10mg of 25B-NBOME in 5mL of water, how do I go about taking this effectively?
Get an oral syringe without the needle part, for example one that can contain 1 ml. They are sold for giving babies and pets medicine. Then you are able to measure the volume that corresponds to the wanted dose, squirt it in your mouth and hold it under your tongue for as long as you can without swallowing what's in your mouth.
You may also squirt the solution into your nose but be careful to only do this in small parts so that it will not drip down the back of your sinuses into your throat because it is then again swallowed and basically lost since it does not work well (or hardly if at all) orally. Better to do small bits of liquid and give it a few minutes to absorb before putting in more than doing too much at once. Also check the 25C-NBOMe thread for example where people describe the volume a typical nose can tolerate without getting an excess that drips.
Squirting it up your a-hole is also an option but often not considered acceptable. I myself have plugged 2C-B in the past with success but on the other hand don't particularly feel enthoused about it. But I'm obviously not prude about it either.
So there you go, a number of options actually.
Also, if you are unable to get syringes but do have access to a scale and small vials or mini containers for holding small volumes of liquid you can weigh your solution since if it is water it will be almost exactly 1 g per 1 ml (to be exact 1.01 g if there were no cuts).
Remember! This is a very potent and relatively not well researched compound so don't start at a full active dose but test with a fraction of it first and slowly build your way up. Experiment as responsibly as you can!
Regarding the 50% dextrose cut, that sounds pretty silly. I cut my 25X-NBX compounds with mannitol myself so I actually find it a fine idea, but I use ratios like 1:40 or 1:50 because that has actual purpose. 50% is bullshit right?
P.S. about krokodil even though it seems like it was a joke or sarcasm the drug itself actually doesn't seem bad at all to me. I'm even interested in making a little for myself using a proper way instead of the unsafe methods street junkies use. Because the impurities / toxic reagents from those bad methods are actually what cause the horrible problems. Just fyi let's not forget that.
So if its cut with 50% dextrose would that interfere with a complexing agent?
Also what would be the expected metabolic fate of the N-(2-MeO)-benzyl moiety?
25B is an interesting substance. Prior to this I have only been familiar with the archetypal psychedelics so I am unable to give a comparative analysis against other rc's in this class. I worked up my dosage in 500ug increments over the course of several hours begining with 500ug and ending with 3mg. I believe my material has been diluted by the supplier in order to make dosage calculation easier but I have no honest idea what the percentage of dilution is. They claim their purity is 99.98% but this doesn't take in to account any fillers that were used. My dosage was in accordance to manufacturers recomendation and seems to be correct for the effects they described. !!!WARNING: If someone else obtains this substance they MUST work up their own dosage and not use my dosage as a referance point!!! Visually this substance is akin to indole tryptamines like psilocybin. I'm not going to give my experience any Shulgin + rating because I never used that to describe my experiences before I knew who Shulgin was and I see no reason to start now. 3mg(?) of 25B feels like 3gr of dried mushroom or 100ug of LSD to me. Mental clarity is good and doesn't have the confused looping of mushrooms but it doesn't have the crystal clarity and insight of LSD either. Overall I would say there is no change in my thought patterns, the substance at this level of dose is mostly visual with some physical effects like increased body temperature and slight digital tremor, both of which are normal for me with LSD and neither seem to be worrisome with 25B at this dosage. No vasoconstriction has been noted at this dose. My bowles feel a bit loose but that may just be the 7-11 burrito I had earlier and not be related to this substance. All in all I would say there is nothing remarkable about 25B other than the fact that it is legal and people are giving away free samples over the internet. It's a brave new world ain't it?! If I had to sum it up in words I would call 25B the "cheap beer" version of LSD. If LSD-25 was chilled Dom Perignon then 25B would be a room temperature Budweiser that was left open overnight. 25B is visually entertaining but lacking any real magic. This would be good for people that either don't want to or maybe shouldn't go to the places that "old school" psychedelics can send someone.
Last edited by Fossil_Diver; 28-02-2012 at 21:28.