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Thread: Kratom - Experienced - This Plant Zapped Away Methadone W/D

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    Kratom - Experienced - This Plant Zapped Away Methadone W/D 
    #1
    Greenlighter msFancyPants's Avatar
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    A little background:

    I'm a 29-year old female living in the US.

    ADDICTION HISTORY: I have an off and on active opiate addiction of about 15 years (and more on the "on" side than "off".) By opiates, I mean any and all of them- started off as vicodin, then went to percocets, and on to oxycontin, heroin, and eventually the methadone monster (I was taking 100/mg a day in my methadone clinic.)

    EXPERIENCE/ TOLERANCE: I also have quite a bit of experience with other substances, mostly hallucinogens and empathogens such as MDMA, mescaline, mushrooms, ketamine, and DMT. I am a moderate user of alcohol, though not recently, most likely because I was experiencing symptoms of withdrawal that killed my desire to drink booze.

    OTHER BACKGROUND: I recently moved from NYC to Upstate New York, thinking that the clinic in this area could at the very least give me a guest dose until they could take me on as a full-time patient. To my dismay (and horror) the local clinic here had a waiting list of six to twelve months, which meant that my choices were to a) move back to the city, b) go to a rehab and detox, or c) come off of methadone cold turkey. Being that I didn't really need to go to rehab, and that moving back to the city JUST to stay on or taper off slowly of methadone was a very pathetic prospect, my choice was limited to coming off cold turkey.

    This idea scared the shit out of me, having been through methadone withdrawals in the past and knowing that they last much longer and are stronger in intensity than heroin or other opiates, so before I started having really bad withdrawals (it usually takes three to five days off of methadone to start experiencing acute symptoms for me personally, most likely as the half-life of this drug is especially long) I decided to do some in-depth research on some natural or over-the-counter remedies for at-home detox. Expecting to not find much other than some beefed-up versions of The Thomas Recipe I came across a (surprisingly) large amount of articles, experiences, trip reports, etcetera, containing info about kratom and opiate withdrawals, with more people advocating mytragynine than not for this purpose. I decided to give this a try so ordered 6 oz. of powdered "premium" kratom (not extracts or "super" strains.)

    4 days later, and ridiculously ill, with symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, muscle aches, I receieved my order of kratom (this was the POWDERED leaf, standard Bali) and begun my journey into the Land of No Opiate Withdrawals. An account of my first experience with this wonderful plant.

    PREPARATION: 10pm-- I mix 28 grams of kratom into a pot of 4 cups of H2O, using a wire whisk, continously stirring and bring the sludge to a gentle boil, then turn it down to simmer for 15 minutes (stirring every few minutes.) I add about 2/3 cup of sugar to the hot mix, let it cool for a few minutes, and divvy the water with the plant material still in it (stirring as I pour) into 4 glasses (to measure 4 doses of 7 grams.)

    THE TRIP: 10:30pm-- I begin to drink the mixture from one of the four glasses (plant and all, still stirring as I chugged) and found it quite bitter, so added a little milk, which made it much more palatable.)

    10:40pn-- My nausea is subsiding, and anxiety level seems to be much lower. Could be placebo at this level.

    11:00pm-- Nausea and churning of stomach definitely gone, almost 100%. Symptoms of Restless Leg Syndrome seems to have dissipated. My limbs feel a little more heavy, in a good way. My mood has gone from despaired to content. I wouldn't say I am experiencing euphoria or a "high" but I liken the feeling to getting my methadone after missing a dose of it one day.

    11:30pm-- I have energy to do things for the first time since I stopped my methadone. I get up and begin to clean the house, doing dishes, and listening to music. The music is enjoyable, and I find myself wishing I had company around.

    12:00pm-- The initial energy burst I got seems to have tapered off, but I now feel relaxed, content, and have almost NO symptoms of withdrawal from the methadone at this point.

    12:25am-- I feel like I can actually fall asleep for the first time in days, so I take another 7 gram dose of kratom so that it lasts me through the night (I have read that mytragynine has a very short half-life) and proceed to lay down.

    12:40am-- I feel myself fade off to sleep-- no issue whatsover.

    THE NEXT MORNING-- I wake at aproximately 8:30am with some very mild anxiety and fatigue, but after dosing again with the kratom get energy and anti-anxiety effects almost immediately.

    CONCLUSION-- For me, kratom is extremely effective as an opiate withdrawal remedy when used in the right doses and frequently ( 2-3 times a day) as its effects do not seem to last as long as methadone or bupenorphine. I plan to use this as a long-term taper (several months) and possibly in place of methadone maintenance. I will post a follow-up in a month or two on how the kratom taper or maintenance is working for me!
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    #2
    This is excellent - thank you for sharing! There is a lot of discussion (primarily in the OD and BDD forums) about kratom but we need more detailed reports like this here so that people know how useful this substance is for those struggling with opioid addiction.

    I would suggest (and this is largely out of personal preference against drinking hot sand water) that you purchase gel caps if you have the means because it makes dosing so much easier and less disgusting. When I don't have gel caps, I do a variation of toss and wash where I get liquid in my mouth, tilt my head back and pour a gram or so in at a time and then quickly swallow. If you do it properly, you don't feel or taste it at all and it's still less time-consuming than making tea. As far as I know, there is no need to heat it to make it (more) active, so if you're going to consume it whole, the tea making isn't necessary. With that said... some people enjoy the process so if that's the case, then by all means!

    How far into withdrawals were you when you dosed? I have a lot of experience with Bali powder and while 7 grams can produce substantial opioidergic effects/withdrawal relief, I'm surprised it helped so much for someone tolerant to 100mg of methadone.... but of course any relief will feel amazing though!

    If you ever do need relief from withdrawal in the future, can't access methadone and detox is out, keep in mind a simple trip to a physician can be beneficial as well. This will almost always produce a script for clonidine and depending on the physician, possibly muscle relaxants, hypnotics, benzodiazepines, etc. Oftentimes addicts are paranoid about admitting their use to physicians because they think they'll be forever labelled as such but HIPAA laws regulate information-sharing and unless you give written consent to having your records sent to your next physician, they won't know. I usually just recommend people go to an ER if they can afford it or a free clinic otherwise which are accessible most places.

    Over the counter loperamide in large doses is another option that many fine VERY useful as well. Search around here for more information on that.

    Sorry for rambling - thanks again for the very helpful report!
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    #3
    Bluelighter Seattle_Stranger's Avatar
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    Glad it worked out so well for you. Kratom is nothing short of amazing.

    Careful though, because it comes with it's own set of addictive qualities. Many believe it has some SSRI-like effects in addition to the opioid-agonistic effects, which in itself can have withdrawal symptoms. Personally, I started using kratom after I quit poppy pods and am admittedly pretty addicted to it. I find it hard to go more than 2 days without it, however, the w/d symptoms are minor and seem to mostly be psychological. It's not much more than a strong craving, maybe some anxiety and depression, but that all dissipates in just a few days.
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    #4
    ^ I've read about NRI/noradrenergic effects but I'm not sure about serotonergic.
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    #5
    Greenlighter msFancyPants's Avatar
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    Thanks much , guys. To answer a few things:

    I, too, was surprised at the efficacy of this plant coming off of suck a large amount of methadone. I started using the kratom 4 days after my last dose of methadone. In the past I have reached sort of a peak of w/d symptoms from methadone at about 10 to 15 days, and the ACUTE symptoms don't really go away for 25 to 45. I was having symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, muscle aches, diarrhea, SERIOUS RLS, chills, and really bad anxiety, and I literally didn't sleep for 36 hours straight this time. Not an hour after I took my first dose of kratom, I would say that the vomiting had totally ceased, I know longer had chills, the RLS was pretty much gone, and my mood was much better. I was also able to fall asleep much more easily. All in all I'd say my condition improved by about 85%.

    Its entirely possible that because BEFORE I took it I was having very acute symptoms and therefore getting any REAL relief from this hell seemed like I was feeling completely better. In other words, fully admitting that this could have been in part, placebo effect. But placebo is still something, I guess! (AND MOST OF THIS WAS DEFINITELY NOT A PLACEBO BUT VERY REAL.)

    A quick follow up on kratoms' efficacy since I initially wrote this: Kratom definitely does not last very long as far as treating w/d, lasting at about 4 hours on its own. Therefore on the second night of my kratom use I woke again in the middle of the night with dopesickness. I wound up having to get up and make another cup of tea to go back to sleep. So today I have tried to take Tagamet 1/2 hour before taking the kratom, and it works very well to not so much potentiate the intensity of kratom but to increase the duration of its effects. I went a full 9 hours before starting to feel the w/d symptoms again! So a much better improvement. I am getting ready to go to bed in a little bit, so am trying to wait until I literally lay down before taking my last dose of kratom, and have also taken another dose of Tagamet, so hopefully I can get through a full night without waking!

    Tehe, as far as e.r. docs and primary care physicians: I have most def gone to them for help with withdrawal and did so not long after my last dose of methadone and before my first dose of kratom and I was told the following lines of BS, and this isn't the first time I've heard these things from the medical profession:

    "Oh, you're already 3 days from your last dose of methadone, which is a long time to go without it. You have certainly felt the worst of its withdrawals at this point, so you'll only start to feel better at this point."
    (Eh, I personally don't even start to feel any acute physical w/d from methadone until about 2 or 3 days after the last dose, and we all know how long and in what intensity w/d from long-acting opiates ACTUALLY cause!)

    2) "After 72 hours, the methadone has cleared your body, so the w/d symptoms you are feeling are only psychological."
    (Vomiting bile to the point of anorexia, fainting, tremors, RLS, stomach ulcers, losing 15-20 pounds in a few weeks all PSYCHOLOGICAL? Wow, the mind truly IS a powerful thing. If it can do all of that, then I can probably teach myself to levitate with the power of my mind!!! Not to mention: methadone doesn't clear the body for 7-15 days depending on the person, how much and how long you're taking it!)

    I guess I have never had good luck with the medical field for anything, and I study/ WORK in a medical-type field myself! Maybe because I do have some medical knowledge I expect too much from them or something. Or maybe can you reccomend, Cane2, a particular type of doc (e.g. psychiatrist, addiction specialist, etc.) that might be easier to approach then others? Or maybe what sort of approach to them that you've taken in the past to get good results? Maybe I come across as bitchy to them , haha!

    Seattle Stranger: Thanks for the concern. I am aware that kratom can cause both an opiate withdrawal-like syndrome with it and actually read quite a few personal accounts of this here on BL, and also on Erowid. It also seems that it takes a bit longer for most to catch a kratom habit, and that while the w/d's from it are very real, they are also much short lived and somewhat less intense that most opiates (more likened to coming off a small to moderate poppy pod habit in comparison to coming off of IV-heroin, bupes, or methadone. So yeah, I plan for now to stabilize on the kratom, and then start to taper after the methadone has had time to completely clear the body. I am also being very careful to monitor exactly how much kratom I'm using, how long I've been using it, and to see if my tolerance seems to be increasing quickly or not. At the time I am on a strict schedule of kratom: Yesterday and today I took 7 grams around 11 a.m., 7 grams at 6pm, and am getting ready to take a 9 gram dose for bed.

    I read that many opiate addicts take 10, 15, or more grams at once to cover w/d symptoms, but I have not found the need for this so far. I think some people use this thinking they'll get a little buzz from it on top of helping with w/d, but I am not using it expecting any euphoria-- just improvement in illness.

    I am glad to know that this was a well-written and potentially helpful article!
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    #6
    Greenlighter msFancyPants's Avatar
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    Oh, meant to touch on the neurotransmitter topic really quick (know I was rambling away as I went). This is what I understand about kratom in this regard: It does primarily affect the mu-receptors, thus the opiate-like effects and similar w/d syndrome. It does also work on the noradrenergic receptors. I have also read that there may or may not be other alkaloid content in kratom other than mytragynine that are responsible to some of the other more unique effects of kratom (such as why a mu-opioid agonist also has such a ceiling effect for respiratory depression, thus no real reports of death from kratom alone.) So it is possible that there are unidentified alkaloids which work on the serotonin receptors, which makes sense given the way this plant feels at the 'dome.

    Also, from what I understand, because a chemical works primarily on one or certain receptors (acting as the "key" at the synapses) doesn't mean that the effects of THESE neurotransmitters don't affect others.

    Take tramadol, for instance. A weak opioid agonist, it also indirectly causes serotonin release to some degree (and mostly due to its MORE direct effects on NRI, the NRI stimulating the serotonin, etc. sort of like a domino-effect almost.) Its more complicated than that, but is more or less a good representation. And when some of these neurotransmitters are more responsible for INDIRECT release of others-- instead of the initially ingested chemical (in this case the tramadol)-- the effects will vary greatly from person to person. For instance, with one person being overstimulated with the serotonin after taking tramadol in such a way that the seizure threshold is lowered, and serotonergic toxicity symptoms present, and in another person, being barely affected at all, and presents as heavily sedated; nodding out.

    I think this might be the case with kratom. Possibly the adrenergic effects can cause stimulation of serotonin in some people, but not so much in others? I don't know-- does this make sense since this is known to be the case with other drugs?

    Either way, I am SUPER sensitive to anything serotonin-producing, and have had moderate to severe serotonergia (aka serotonin syndrome) with tons of pharmies including most SSRI's, SNRI's, tramadol, and MDMA once after a mild overdose. I don't, so far, have any of these types of effects from kratom, but if I do will stop using it and won't give it the time of day so won't have to worry about w'd in any case, lol!

    Okay, seriously going to stop rambling!! Night night, dears.
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    #7
    Excellent report. Very thorough. Nice to see that the Kratom is working well for you. From what I gather, Kratom is much better for alleviating withdrawal symptoms than it is for getting high. It is good to have the option out there for those who have a desire to quit now rather than quit according to when they can get accepted to a clinic.
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    #8
    Bluelighter Seattle_Stranger's Avatar
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    Great read, and still very glad to hear you're doing well.

    At this point, I'm about a year into using kratom heavily. I started using about anywhere from 10-20g of it, once or twice a week, attempting to achieve poppy pod-like effects. Obviously, that resulted in nothing but lots of puke. However when I employed the "less is much, much more" theory, I realized that kratom not only can be quite enjoyable at less than half the dosage I was using, but also wouldn't have as much of an impact on my overall health if I used less. So, I started using less of it, but more often. Once I found my sweet spot (10g in OJ, w/ 400mg cimetidine and a sandwich) and kratom started working WAY too well for me, I just started using it more and more often, eventually graduating to every other day, and now I find myself binging on it here and there for days at a time. I'm currently planning to taper down, and already have started using less than my peak usage.

    The moral of my story? It's still addictive. How addictive? Not very, because although I would be REALLY upset, I don't feel like it would be the end of the world if I suddenly couldn't have any more kratom. It would be comparable to a bad breakup at this point. I'd be upset and depressed for a while, but I wouldn't get sick...

    I have taken 4-5 day long breaks here and there over the course of the past year, and aside from strong cravings and the anxiety that results from such cravings, I didn't have any of the classic w/d symptoms you speak of like diarrhea, RLS, shivers, weight loss, etc..

    ...however....

    Here's something you may find interesting: I sort of feel like taking cimetidine every time plays some role in maintenance with this plant. If I dose on kratom without taking cimetidine, not only do I find it to be a weaker experience, but it's felt much more in the body than in the brain, which then results in more bodily withdrawal symptoms when it wears off like aches, body fatigue, sweats, shivers.. I have definitely experienced this with kratom after binging without cimetidine. However, with cimetidine every time, the experiences are VERY heady/euphoric and seems to lack ANY body withdrawal, which is quite nice thinking back to what it felt like when my body was missing it's poppy pods. RLS, cold sweats, shivers and all that fun stuff just doesn't happen to me anymore since I religiously started using cimetidine.

    Take that for what you will. I could be completely full of shit (pun intended).

    I could 'experiment' and just not take any for a week and see what happens, but, to be completely honest, I just don't want to.
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    #9
    Bluelighter Seattle_Stranger's Avatar
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    http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/5...40#post9803240

    Here's my trip reports comparing experiences with and without Tagamet.
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    #10
    ^ excellent add.

    Goddamn, there is some great discussion in here. We might have to add this to the OD directory or promote it elsewhere.
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    #11
    Bluelighter Seattle_Stranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cane2theLeft View Post
    ^ excellent add.

    Goddamn, there is some great discussion in here. We might have to add this to the OD directory or promote it elsewhere.
    ...as everyone suddenly stops posting.
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    #12
    Greenlighter msFancyPants's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seattle_Stranger View Post
    Here's something you may find interesting: I sort of feel like taking cimetidine every time plays some role in maintenance with this plant. If I dose on kratom without taking cimetidine, not only do I find it to be a weaker experience, but it's felt much more in the body than in the brain, which then results in more bodily withdrawal symptoms when it wears off like aches, body fatigue, sweats, shivers.. I have definitely experienced this with kratom after binging without cimetidine. However, with cimetidine every time, the experiences are VERY heady/euphoric and seems to lack ANY body withdrawal, which is quite nice thinking back to what it felt like when my body was missing it's poppy pods. RLS, cold sweats, shivers and all that fun stuff just doesn't happen to me anymore since I religiously started using cimetidine.
    After my own little experience without then with the cimetidine, then read this as well as the trip reports... well, I am taking Tagamet with my kratom every time now, too... (and it is working for 8-10 hour stretches as opposed to 4 to 6 hours!!! as well as somewhat in intensity!) And yeah, I am sort of using it as maintenance for the time being-- in 3 weeks (so to give me time to continue to stabilize on the mytragynine) I am going to start a sllooooowwww taper from kratom, as opiate w/d causes terrible psychiatric PAWS for me, and I am NOT ready to deal with that yet!!! I may be switching from one drug to another, but the side effects are minimal/ non-existent in comparison to the 'Done. So I don't have any real feelings of guilt about it! I am NOT one of those people who believes you just HAVE to go through it and feel like complete hell in order to REALLY kick opiates. I don't HAVE to suffer, so I'm won't!

    Hmmm-- I sound really defensive and don't even have to be defending myself on this thread. Something to look into... though my ex and I did get into an argument earlier about the whole using kratom instead of "just kicking" thing, and think the ill feelings just haven't left my system yet.

    DOH! My roommate accidentally drank a couple doses of the pre-made tea I had in the fridge the other day (i had it REALLY sweet with stevia, but still-- its sort of gross shit, ya' know, so I am truly convinced that he thought it was mushroom tea or something that *would and did* get him high... though he said he thought it was regular iced tea. Yeah right. Who gets through 3 cups of kratom tea thinking its BLACK tea???

    Anyhow, my point in mentioning this little "accident": After downing the tea initially he became quite ill (vomiting), just on the three doses, but after I satdown and told him about the kratom and why I had it in the first place, he was interested in "doing it right" do today he took just one dose, and claims that the only difference was that he WASN'T sick to his stomach. In other words, the "more or less" rule seems to have applied with him as well, as he said he was equally as high as taking the 3 doses "accidentally".
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    #13
    Greenlighter msFancyPants's Avatar
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    The other point in my mentioning my roommate drinking my kratom-- well, I ran out for a day, and had nothing in my system for 24 hours and thugh the methadone w/d did come back, they seemed to have tapered off quite a bit since right before I started taking the kratom... and as far as cravings for the kratom go, I really didn't have any other than something to stop the methadone w/d. Most definitely will find kratom easier to kick then other drugs I've been addicted to it the past!
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    #14
    I have an ounce of capsuled thai kratom. Last experience with it was a stimulant effect. The ounce made 34 capsules so they are slightly under a gram. I took 2 capsules before to test the effects and it was a stim effect kind of like yohimbe. I am in WD at the moment from methadone. I want to try the kratom but am afraid of the stimulant effect. As most people would agree, the last thing I want is a stim effect while withdrawing. It is like a panic attack on steroids. I read to get the opiate like effects you need to take higher doses. I am afraid of increasing the stimulant effect with a higher dose.

    Advice?
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    #15
    Let me rephrase the question so that it isn't as needy. Has anyone experienced the transition of it going from a stim to an opiate type or WD relief by upping the dose?
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    #16
    Greenlighter msFancyPants's Avatar
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    ^ You would think that the stimulant effect WOULD be ill-advised in w/d, but in my own experience I have found that in normal doses (5-8 grams) of kratom the stimulant effects are an improvement from w/d, are more mental than physical (as in there is an increase in mental acuity and energy much needed for depression and other PAWS symptoms) but that the body becomes more calm (symptoms of RLS and other restless seem to dissapear) but not in a "lazy" kind of way.

    Sometimes, for the first 15 or 20 minutes there is slight jitteriness with the kratom, but it seems to subside very quickly and doesn't seem to cause any added anxiety with the w/d, and if anything it tends to make anxiety go away. If you were on a high dose of methadone, the kratom may or may not TOTALLY override the w/d, but there will be very noticeable improvements. In my case, the w/d symptoms were barely noticeable with the kratom until kratom wears off.

    I don't even think you need to take more kratom in order to avoid stimulation, and overall, no, kratom has not made w/d worse for me because of stimulation, quite the opposite, in fact. And this is coming from a person who can't drink coffee without feeling overstimulated! (Thus my love for CNS depressants!)
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    #17
    Kratom is fascinating and amazing and I would love to study it on a molecular level. I use about 2-4 g of kratom per day, and I find it has an effect similar to coffee at these low doses without the jitterry side effects. Also, I have found no tolerance, or addiction at these low doses, I can stop for days in a row and have readmany times that it helps w/ withdrawal in higher amnts... Yea, it's great, hope they don't make it illegal, like they do with everything else that's worth it.
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    #18
    I am 28 year old that has been doing opiates since i was 21. It started with the occasional tab or percocet then it graduated to 30's and heroin, up to 15 30's a day at my worst. As of the last few weeks I had a beautiful girl who has completely changed my life and ive decided that im fed up with being held down by some opiate. some days i havent been able to go see her due to being sick. Ive tried methadone and suboxone but yuor just trading one drug for another. I cant be a good example to daughter. THANK GOD FOR KRATOM!!! After going through 2 days of just being sick and not being able to work, cant eat, cant sleep, i took 5 grams of Bali Extract and put it in gel capsules. within an hour i felt completely normal with even a happy motivated feeling. Ive made it through day 4 with the last 2 days of taking kratum and not being sick. It also saves me from having to pay for rehab or expensive medicines that just trade addictions. FOR THOSE WHO HAVE TRIED AND TRIED AND TRIED TO GET OFF OF ALL THAT OPIATE SHIT, GIVE KRATUM A SHOT!!! Buy the EXTRACT as its the strongest type and start with 2 or 3 grams and see what happens. step up as needed! IM NOT A DOCTOR!!! JUST A FELLOW (FORMER) SLAVE TO OPIATES WHO FOUND SOMETHING THAT WORKS FOR ME AND MIGHT FOR YOU!!
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