• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

I Like to Draw Pictures of Random Molecules

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All the ligating sites are lone-pair of tertiary N, im not sure if large radioactive elements are too "soft"

What likes N are only like Co, Ni, Cu, Zn, Pd, Ag....

Others like Li, Na, K, Mg, Ca, Fe, etc doesnt like N so much, they are way too "hard"
While commonly radioactives like Th, U, Np or like are too "soft", they more like S or As or alike
 
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Drawing pictures of random molecules is indeed very important......But guys why do u drawa metylenodioxy ring on everything besides regular cocaine. I posted this earlier with no responses but I'm seriously wondering why noone ver did this( I even checked wikipedia page tropane anologues). Could someone with some experience speak up...pls?
 
^ read the 1st post in this thread why methylenedioxy goes everywhere (and also my second post of MDbuckyball for answer
 
Well I read them and it does not answear my question about why noone bother for mdcoke
 
http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/196430-Cocaine-like-analogues-of-MDMA-or-methylone

Apart from that, if it's just for silliness there is really no logic or rule to which compound has been drawn and which has not.

Where do you even want the MD?

Like this?

Methyl%20(1R%2C2R%2C3S%2C5S)-3-(3%2C4-methylenedioxybenzoyloxy)-8-methyl-8-azabicyclo%5B3.2.1%5Doctane-2-carboxylate.png
 
Maybe? I guess as much opposite to the primary substitution as it gets. What would be the effects?
Does anyone consider this interesting?
Like imagine super short acting mdma with an unimaginable rush?
Mephedrone on steroids?
Does such assumptions make any sense?
I know that with chain extended cathinones adding the MD does not make much diffrence(alfa-pvp/mdpv) so how about coke?
Just posting ideas guys I'm an udergraduate atm.
 
First SAR rule of all: SAR does not carry over from one sort of drug to a relatively unrelated other drug. There is no reason why they would respond in the same way to a subtitution unless you know that they bind to a receptor in some same way spatially.
Remember the primitive lock and key analogy for drugs in receptors and realize which drugs actually act on which receptors and whether it actually makes sense to try and make a key that fits well in all.

Unfortunately even drugs that seem related in certain ways may turn out to bind upside down to a receptor compared to each other... this again would ruin any plans you might have had to make a hybrid that bridges the 'gap'. What you need is two drugs that behave similarly and even bind similarly, so that you can enhance that binding with a well-placed chemical group. There is often little tolerance for what sort of group must be or can be placed somewhere to make a drug better... ahh if it were only that easy right? No drug designers really put the art in 'the art of science' i guess... although that stuff *can* be simulated and calculated etc..

So hybridizing two drugs is really very rare and afaik only tends to happen sometimes with drugs that share *some* pharmacology and even then it is a tradeoff: you are basically making one type of drug worse at something by trying to turn it more into another one.
Think of breeding animals... you got your liger for example, but there are quickly limits you encounter trying to breed two types of animals that aren't that related like a parrot and a crocodile, and even if you could do that - it would be a lottery winner if it would then have a fighting chance in nature let alone if it can survive in the local environment where you want to keep it as a pet (you sadist bastard). Not too good an analogy [what about genetic engineering / modification for example?] well that is screwing with the chemistry at a another level.. with drugs you are already at that deepest level.

MDMA is not super related to cocaine, it's an empathogen and acts promiscuously on triple monoamines in various ways including as releaser while cocaine is a reuptake inhibitor with a preference for dopamine.

Since cocaine doesn't act as releaser that way, you can't really enhance that hypothetical activity to make it more MDMA-like, at least not simply that way...

There are 4'-subtituted analogues: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cocaine_analogues#para-substituted_benzoylmethylecgonines
And looking at these my best guess would be that the above molecule may retain some activity as DRI although possibly not very good.. but who knows it is not enough info to really go on..

This looks more like a supercharged coke:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salicylmethylecgonine

But hey it wouldn't be the first coke analogue that sounds amazing on paper but sucks ass according to people who try it - like worse than inactive the way I read it.

Talk to nagelfar, he has been posting cocaine analogues like a coke-fuelled message posting rabbit, but I don't know if he has relevant info on this topic. Just wait here for everyone else to chime in too though.

Also: if you check out the way cocaine docks into DAT for example, you can sort of check out what amino acid residues are around that para position, what might be a better way to hang on to the cocaine molecule, where there is tolerance for substitution etc.

I don't know how e.g. MDPV docks but apparently that part of the drug is not involved with critical parts of it binding and activation. If it doesn't really matter much, as you put it, then on the other hand you also don't have much potential to supercharge your molecule with a modification and 'put it on steroids'.
 
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Wow dude thanks! It's super interesting. If u don't mind may I ask what do u study/studied and does medicinal chemistry aims for that kinda stuff as disuscussed here? But that was off topic a little bit, I only wanted to add that cocaine(being a stimulant) does not primarily acts on dopamine. Instead it acts primarily on norepinehrine than dopamine than serotonin with a ratio of 7:4:3 where higher number means more affinity. Btw it's a feature that all drugs considered as stimulants/euphoric stimulants share like METH. Anyway thanks for ur answer, it's very elaborate.
 
It might be great. It might not be. The only way anyone can know for sure is to make it and try it, which is dangerous (the trying it part), difficult (the synth part), and possibly illegal (?).
 
Ah right.. yes the affinity for NET is stronger.. the dopaminergic activity is thought to be relatively very important though, DAT is more studied and the profile in general for the monoamines / catecholamines determines the sort of effect. The balance is important, at least IMO, I don't like drugs that are quite norepinephrinergic...

I studied chemistry but dropped out, the way it looks now ADD played a serious role but no idea what it would have been like without that. Considering how I function now, I like to think that I could have finished it fine but who even cares. One of my best friends (even before college) did Drug Design... I still have his quite nice Medicinal Chem book.

I haven't been seriously active in any of these fields for quite some years though, there are guys here who instead are on the top of their game and they definitely should have the final word.

Coke is one of the drugs I dislike most apart from shunning ones entirely like deliriants.
 
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Cyclodrones:

beta-keto arylcyclohexylamines (bk-ACHs)

bk-PCP

phenyl-(1-piperidin-1-ylcyclohexyl)methanone.png


Not what you may think: they have NO NMDAr activity (pretty much zero) !!.. but pure stims more like PVPs .. here is the MXE congener

bk-MXE:
%5B1-(methylamino)cyclohexyl%5D-(3-methoxyphenyl)methanone.png

look like hexedrone with the hexyl cyclized .. or alfa-alfa disubstituted cathinones with the dimethyl cyclized via a Pr group
 
It's not illegal to draw or propose structures by the way. It's illegal to manufacture banned drugs, but banning the drug doesn't ban the literature discussion of it!

Isn't is called "aiding and abetting".. if you design, draw, suggest a synthesis route for a potentially illegal substances and somebody go ahead manufacture and distribute it and get busted in the process: you go to jail !
 
Two important things:
- Synthesis discussion is not allowed here and definitely not supporting a manufacturing scheme with such discussion.
- Who really is to say which compounds are potentially illegal, that is quite difficult to prove in court IMO. Close analogues and the analogue law... then yes sure of course. But fuck the 'you could have known it would become illegal' argument. It's already enough of a minefield. Nobody can guess what is going on in the minds of lawmakers and honestly I don't really want to. Let them pass laws and not suggest hypothetical ones you cannot even break hypothetically or help someone else break hypothetically.. 8(

Aiding and abetting applies to supporting perpetration of a crime. What's going on here is suggestion only of novel routes to follow - in terms of design only - but definitely not something like a map to perpetrate a crime entirely like successful and profitable synthesis of a compound entirely indicated as a scheduled substance. Let alone the international nature of the forum, of course we wouldn't explicitly endorse or support something clearly illegal somewhere but this is all a fresh and grey area and internationally speaking it will be even greyer. Grey... not crime.

Oh and actually another thing on top: if this would be aiding and abetting, where would one draw the line with legit research articles which also describe 'potentially' illegal substances or even fully illegal substances? All we're doing here is conducting intellectual discussions. I even hardly think it needs a disclaimer to say that when people abuse this information to break the law it's not our fault. Nothing at all says that this forum or thread is set up for that exact purpose, unsurprisingly because that is not what it is set up for.

in my honest post. :)

(if someone were to chime in and say: I want to make compound X or Y from this thread, can you please instruct me in detail how to do that exactly... then it would quickly become a whole different matter.)
 
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if you design, draw, suggest a synthesis route for a potentially illegal substances and somebody go ahead manufacture and distribute it and get busted in the process: you go to jail !

Where I'm from, you can publish all the synthesis information you want, you just can't actually do the synthesis without the correct paperwork. If someone wants to break the law by manufacturing drugs without a permit to do so, the blame for doing so falls squarely on them. Neither whomever published the synthesis, nor the person who sold the clandestine chemist his glassware, nor the landlord who leased the building, nor the company who made the chemist's lab coat are responsible in the slightest... it's the person or persons using the flasks and chemicals to make the drugs that are breaking the law. It's because the chemists who do the synthesis are usually government-associated or audited by the gov't and have special licenses to work with controlled substances and precursors legally. Or, you can always do the chemistry and publish whatever you want if you find a new, as-yet-unbanned drug or class of drugs... almost every illegal drug is banned well after they have been made and distributed for a few years, rather than immediately at the time of discovery. There was actually a period in time that fentanyl analogs were not explicitly illegal...

If publishing drug synthesis could lead to legal liability you'd see a whole bunch of ex-pharma chemists in jail (from everywhere... Allan & Hanburys, Parke-Davis, Pfizer, National Institutes of Health/NIH, etc), John Huffman (inventor of JWH-xxx series cannabinoids), Albert Hoffman, the Shulgins, etc. I mean, half of the new "research chemical" drugs are cribbed from the patent literature, usually with a whole synthesis right there on the same page... so there's a pretty strong case to say that even if you're actually doing illegal chemistry with no regard for the law, you can publish whatever you'd like. If you're doing bad things you'll end up arrested. There's no law against incriminating yourself. ... :)
 
You're absolutely right: the law applies to the "manufacture, selling, possession, possession with intent to sell or consume the controlled substances and/or its salts, analogs, isomers thereof (in countries where there is analog laws). It applies only to the person(s) actually making, consuming or trading (not conceiving!). Kind of reassuring.. It would have been one heck of a Police State to lock people up for imagining and drawing a molecule. The reason I edited a post I made earlier on possible MPHs that I was musing about was that I was kind of concerned about designing or discussing in particular phenidates and/or analogs. Because lately for some reasons this particular class has come under the target of law: 2-3 days ago, UK just banned Ethyl Phenidate (following the methyl, isopropyl,..etc), Canada did the same with half a dozen phenidates 3 weeks ago, US feds are in the process of passing new synthetics law in a month or so...So I suppose better get away from this class.. actually I wonder why phenidates: could the pharma makers of Ritalin loosing market shares to the RC competition?!?.. who knows?
^^ re: synthesis route: I am talking in general not necessarily on BL.. of course talk abt synthetic methods is off limits even tho instinctively the first thing that come to my mind when I see a random molecules drawn is: "geez, 4 chiral centers, how da heck you make that!??"
 
I like reading about this kind of discussion, kinda makes me want to earn an advanced degree in organic chemistry, and feel like a wizard making potions.
Makes me want to go back into a lab.
 
Usually with chiral centers they use left vs right hands to explain things, with 4 chiral centers you would need a human centipede to explain... which, fun fact, is why the mad doctor in the movie (you know, the 'eat shit and die' one) wanted to make em.

Some reactions involve an intermediate step where basically one of the 4 substitutions of a chiral center leaves and is replaced by another (sometimes in one fell swoop, depending). This can scramble your chirality when that intermediate loses its chirality if the leaving group leaves in a separate step and when there is just no preference for the new group to bind from the back or the front. So I think you need the type of reaction where the new group comes from one side, for various possible reasons.

The planning strategy is also amazing (well in general for more or less complex molecules IMO) and I guess like solving a Rubik's cube: by protecting and deprotecting reactive groups - preferably making groups not reactive anymore as in the end-product asap when possible - and looking ahead all the way to the end and each step making sense because they anticipate the other steps.

Not sure if that's quite right, posted cause curious to see if it is. I definitely didn't advance to synthesis of 4 chiral center type compounds, and it seems unlikely that a lab would bother to make it unless economically viable or worth it for some particularly reason. If potent enough one could imagine that they would not bother to make it entirely enantiomerically pure but only narrow it down a bit if that saves so many resources that it is still plenty efficient.
 
Enantiomers are difficult to separate, but as the number of chiral centers per molecule increases (for example, diastereomers), the widely differing physical properties of the resultant mixture's molecules usually make them a snap to separate out.
 
Enantiomers aren't actually that difficult to separate, nature has given us all sorts of high-e.e. chiral compounds we can use to make separation media and do derivatizations with to produce disastereomers. (e.g. react a DL-alcohol with L-(O-acetyl)lactyl chloride to make (D,L) and (L,L) pairs which have differing physical properties... or use sparteine to sep. chiral carboxylates, or camphorsulphonic acid to do amines, etc)

And we also have enzymatic reactions that can produce compounds in high yield and ee, if you know where to look to get the right enzymes....
 
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