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    d-Amphetamines & Dopamine/Serotonin 
    #1
    Greenlighter BrokenMind's Avatar
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    Unhappy
    this is my first post on this website, so i apologize if this is the wrong place for my inquiry. anyway, ill keep this short and sweet (for the most part).

    i used to binge on amphetamines on a daily basis (Adderall), taking as much as 200mg in between 100mg doses all in one week. i wasnt paying enough attention to the toll it was having, but more towards the fun, and opportunies this magical pill provided me with. anyway, i quit amphetamines altogether after a slow decline from complete euphoria to dysphoria over the course of a few months.

    this affect had me feeling extremely anti-social on the drug, when before i'd be able to talk to the goddamn president without a stutter or flinch. then it affected every other drug high possible; cannabis, mdma, cocaine, pain killers, etc. etc. and now, 3-4 years later, am in a constant state of depression and anxiety despite my regular intake of a popular SSRI (Paxil).

    ANYWAY:
    my question is, ive dont a lot of research about adderall and the effect it has on the brain (inb4 bad sources)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphetamine#Dopamine
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamin...ibitor#Effects
    and found out that serotonin, as per usual with any type of drug use, is heavily affected by amphetamines, but also dopamine, a neurotransmitter when low or depleted over time can cause depression, lack of ambition, etc. all of which i'm now experiencing.

    so, since my brain (3-4 years) is a bit too late to start taking supplements like 5-htp and potassium to help obtain my natural state of balance, would taking an SDRI (selective-DOPAMINE x x) along with an SSRI likely, if at all return some sort of chemical balance?

    any light shed on this would be great, because a few months prior to my research i was set on a theory of simply 'losing my mind' and that there was no fix. give me some hope, guys.
    PLEASE! D:

    thanks.
    -BrM
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    #2
    Bluelighter Smyth's Avatar
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    I'm not sure why you choose to write with that crazy font. But anyway, I was not of the opinion that amphetamine has direct effects on the 5HT system. It appears to function solely as a catecholaminergic as far as I am concerned. Further substitution into the aromatic nucleus is required for there to be 5-HT activity such as that seen for 4-FA or MDMA etc.

    Just experiment which compounds are right for you to restore proper brain balance. I put alot of faith into SNDRI compounds but none of these have reached the market place. Consider experimenting with tranylcypromine or phenelzine.
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    #3
    Bluelighter mgmt&mdma's Avatar
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    its never too late to start taking supplements
    amphetamines dont use up too much serotonin if i remember correctly. i believe they work primarily with dopamine and epinephrine.

    how long have you been on paxil?

    for me, the best recovery plan is eating healthily and exersizing regularly. i highly doubt you'll need an SDRI, and you cant mix 5HTP with SSRI's.

    hope this helps
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    #4
    For most drug-induced brain damage, it appears that recovery is typically achieved within 1-2 years.
    For stimulant/dopamine abusers, it can take up to 4 years in some cases.

    These estimates are based upon drug abstinence.
    Depending on the extent of your cocaine/mdma use, they may have contributed to your problem.

    If you have been on the Paxil for much of the last 4 years, it is also incriminated.
    Among those of us in recovery from MDMA, it is agreed that SSRIs are a BAD idea.
    Dosing regiments always go up, and almost everyone has withdrawal if they EVER stop using SSRIs. Sexual side-effects are common, and for a small portion of the population they are long-lasting/permanent.

    The science of neurology is in its infancy, so doctors are going to be limited in what they can do to help you. I strongly suggest you taper of the Paxil slowly, with your doctor's participation.

    If you must take something, consider a dopamine inhibitor, like wellbutrin. It just makes more sense.

    Or do it the old-fashioned way - lots of exercise.
    Supplements are great, too, but exercise does more than anything else.

    Working out increases blood flow to the brain. It does this so effectively that, after a few months, you will pop up more capillaries in response!
    It will also cause a powerful release of dopamine...thats right, your body will make its own anti-depressants.

    More than this....exercise causes an increases in BDNF.
    Brain Derived Neutrophic Factor is a protein that stimulates the release of STEM CELLS into key areas of the brain.
    This includes the hippocampus, the cortex, and the basal forebrain.
    These are just the regions where we have proven stem cells are active, there may be others.

    With all types of brain injury from strokes to gunshots....the rehabilitation process ALWAYS includes physical exercise. Lots of it.

    For supplements: fish oil improves the mylenation around nerves in the brain.
    Tumeric extract is a powerful anti-inflammatory and is believed by some to be the ONLY supplement that induces neuro-genesis. Combine it with black pepper and it is much more bio-available.

    Vitamins, especally b-vitamins, are critical to the production of neurotransmitters.
    Take lecithin, which supports the production of neurotransmitters.
    Piracetam is a great supplement that makes your brain cells more permeable. It should contribute much more than Paxil ever did...

    But none of these supplements will equal what exercise can do.
    You may not even feel capable of doing any exercise, but you have to.
    Start out simple...10 minutes of moderate weight-lifting and running.
    The key thing is to repeat, daily.

    You have already said the Paxil isn't helping. So stop using it - it may be holding back your recovery potential.

    Good luck.
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    #5
    Bluelighter mgmt&mdma's Avatar
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    ^^you learn something new everyday
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    #6
    Greenlighter BrokenMind's Avatar
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    first off, thanks all for the prompt, genuine responses. and i apologize in advance for the lack of organization when it comes to improperly quoting. its late.
    Quote Originally Posted by Smyth View Post
    I'm not sure why you choose to write with that crazy font. But anyway, I was not of the opinion that amphetamine has direct effects on the 5HT system. It appears to function solely as a catecholaminergic as far as I am concerned. Further substitution into the aromatic nucleus is required for there to be 5-HT activity such as that seen for 4-FA or MDMA etc.

    Just experiment which compounds are right for you to restore proper brain balance. I put alot of faith into SNDRI compounds but none of these have reached the market place. Consider experimenting with tranylcypromine or phenelzine.
    sorry if my font annoys you, just always liked it.;/ soz. anyway, i agree with the potential of the SNDRIs for extreme cases of depression and such, but in hindsight, my drug use has me believing i'm doing quite fine in the pinephrine department, therefore an SNDRI might be more harmful than good or am i wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by mgmt&mdma View Post
    its never too late to start taking supplements
    amphetamines dont use up too much serotonin if i remember correctly. i believe they work primarily with dopamine and epinephrine.

    how long have you been on paxil?

    for me, the best recovery plan is eating healthily and exersizing regularly. i highly doubt you'll need an SDRI, and you cant mix 5HTP with SSRI's.

    hope this helps
    even so, i did binge on ex tabs for a while, taking two-four at a time was normal, but didnt come close to the amount of adderall i took. so its very my serotonin and dopamine levels took are in the dumps compared to nore.

    ive been on paxil for a good 2 months-ish and yes my doctor shared 5-htp negates the effect of SSRIs or some shit, and claims it will not help in my case despite the numerous amounts of MDMA abusers saying this helps their brain rehab. should i drop the paxil and pick up a regular exercise schedule along while frequently feeding my brain numerous amounts of supplements? if so, which?


    Quote Originally Posted by First Bad Comedown View Post
    For most drug-induced brain damage, it appears that recovery is typically achieved within 1-2 years.
    For stimulant/dopamine abusers, it can take up to 4 years in some cases.

    These estimates are based upon drug abstinence.
    Depending on the extent of your cocaine/mdma use, they may have contributed to your problem.

    If you have been on the Paxil for much of the last 4 years, it is also incriminated.
    Among those of us in recovery from MDMA, it is agreed that SSRIs are a BAD idea.
    Dosing regiments always go up, and almost everyone has withdrawal if they EVER stop using SSRIs. Sexual side-effects are common, and for a small portion of the population they are long-lasting/permanent.

    The science of neurology is in its infancy, so doctors are going to be limited in what they can do to help you. I strongly suggest you taper of the Paxil slowly, with your doctor's participation.

    If you must take something, consider a dopamine inhibitor, like wellbutrin. It just makes more sense.

    Or do it the old-fashioned way - lots of exercise.
    Supplements are great, too, but exercise does more than anything else.

    Working out increases blood flow to the brain. It does this so effectively that, after a few months, you will pop up more capillaries in response!
    It will also cause a powerful release of dopamine...thats right, your body will make its own anti-depressants.

    More than this....exercise causes an increases in BDNF.
    Brain Derived Neutrophic Factor is a protein that stimulates the release of STEM CELLS into key areas of the brain.
    This includes the hippocampus, the cortex, and the basal forebrain.
    These are just the regions where we have proven stem cells are active, there may be others.

    With all types of brain injury from strokes to gunshots....the rehabilitation process ALWAYS includes physical exercise. Lots of it.

    For supplements: fish oil improves the mylenation around nerves in the brain.
    Tumeric extract is a powerful anti-inflammatory and is believed by some to be the ONLY supplement that induces neuro-genesis. Combine it with black pepper and it is much more bio-available.

    Vitamins, especally b-vitamins, are critical to the production of neurotransmitters.
    Take lecithin, which supports the production of neurotransmitters.
    Piracetam is a great supplement that makes your brain cells more permeable. It should contribute much more than Paxil ever did...

    But none of these supplements will equal what exercise can do.
    You may not even feel capable of doing any exercise, but you have to.
    Start out simple...10 minutes of moderate weight-lifting and running.
    The key thing is to repeat, daily.

    You have already said the Paxil isn't helping. So stop using it - it may be holding back your recovery potential.

    Good luck.
    i appreciate your time and concern, and it was in fact a good read. i used to exercise regularly purely for reasons surrounding aesthetics and confidence, and was not aware it had such an effect.

    do you recommend the Wellbutrin in exchange for my current Paxil script? ive only been on for 2 months, remaining at the starting dose of 20mg so no problems tapering off.

    the reason i'm so interested in these DRIs is because i read somewhere that after taking certain drugs for so long, your brain realizes these chemicals are being overloaded so bad, that it stop producing them naturally since youre getting the needed serotonin, etc. from other sources. therefore, in theory, can i really obtain my natural state through a simple regiment of weight-lifting, supplements and vitamins?

    sorry for the wall of text, i'm just extremely naive in this department of anatomy, and am very skeptical if a full recovery can be made at all.
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    #7
    Bluelighter mgmt&mdma's Avatar
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    ive been on paxil for a good 2 months-ish and yes my doctor shared 5-htp negates the effect of SSRIs or some shit, and claims it will not help in my case despite the numerous amounts of MDMA abusers saying this helps their brain rehab. should i drop the paxil and pick up a regular exercise schedule along while frequently feeding my brain numerous amounts of supplements? if so, which?
    the 5HTP helps the mdma users because they have low serotonin levels. it will not help you because your on an SSRI. i took 5htp for about a week and IMO its just about as good as being on an SSRI when it comes do depression (im on celexa)

    im not sure if you should drop the paxil, its completely up to you. exersizing regularly would be a good idea regaurdless of what medication your on though. theres a whole list of supplements you can take in EcstasyDiscussion.
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    #8
    5-HTP only helps those with moderate/minor comedowns after MDMA use.
    It may help restore serotonin levels a little more quickly.
    For those experiencing severe symptoms, more serotonin is not what is needed.
    What is needed, is up-regulation of countless lost receptors in the network.
    This will take time, and adding 5-HTP can cause an increase in anxiety.

    If you 'binged' on MDMA, I assume you took it days in a row.
    This type of repeated dosing has been proven to cause great alterations in the 'brain-gut' circuitry of many animals. Adderall can cause damage to the dopamine system after extended abuse, but MDMA can damage the serotonin system in VERY few repeated doses.

    Depending on the extent of your binges, they may be largely responsible for this long-term change. If you were using Adderall at the same time, you may have potentiated the toxic effects of the MDMA. Research has proven that METH combined with MDMA will increase the damage to serotonin receptors. Both METH and adderall are dopamine stimulants. By the way, so is exercise.

    The Paxil may have only just begun to take effect.
    If it does start to work, the fear is that you will simply not want to come off of it, ever. One day soon, the dose will have to be increased.

    I encourage avoiding SSRIs during MDMA recovery for a good reason - it causes down-regulation of SERT receptors too!
    However, due to the fact that you have only begun using them after 4 years, it may not interfere with recovery at this point.

    I still encourage you to try another route - taper off the paxil and give Piracetam a try. While it is not a cure either, it has no affinity for any receptors and poses no risk. It may also show you that your pathways are still functional, without resorting to SSRIs. If you find that Piracetam makes you feel better, it is a real sign of eventual recovery. In this case, using SSRIs would set you back...

    Question - have you really been abstinent during these four years?
    If you have done any drugs like MDMA or adderall during this period of time, you have delayed your recovery. Even smoking weed on a regular basis may have set you back. If this is so, you simply need more time.

    If you have been abstinent for four whole years, perhaps it is time to consider pharmaceutical intervention. But I highly recommend putting it off until you try supplements, Piracetam, and lots of exercise!

    Honestly, I don't see how you have survived your hell this long without exercise...

    If Adderall was the cause of most of the damage, then a dopamine inhibitor would likely be more effective than an SSRI. They are also known to have fewer/less severe side-effects.

    Look up St. John's Wort.
    It has been shown to elevate dopamine preferentially in the prefrontal cortex and the hippocampus. The PFC is of utmost significance for you.

    SJW has been shown to be AS effective as SSRIs, with a fraction of the side-effects. It has been difficult to understand, because it has effects on multiple neuro-transmitter systems. Somehow, it seems to target dopamine in the PFC. It causes a very modest elevation of serotonin there, too.
    Just be careful - SJW does not mix with a LOT of medications. It can cause Serotonin Syndrome, something you do NOT want. Do NOT take it with paxil.

    Let me know if you have any more questions...
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    #9
    Greenlighter BrokenMind's Avatar
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    what concerns me the most here is that youre entirely confident that whatever i do, i need to spend years trying out this and if that fails, another couple years with a different regiment til i find something that works for me.

    what about l-tyrosine which eventually breaks down into some sort of prerequisite to the production of dopamine? (if i read correctly)
    do you know anything about this, or is that another thing like 5-htp that is for more mild cases?

    also, Piracetam (on wiki) does not have any known studies listed for treating any branch of anxiety, depression or deep emotional issues. im not even completely comprehending wtf it does.

    yeah, ive been abstinent for the entire 4 years, except for ONE adderall trip of 40mg. (and yes, it might have delayed recovery, but my old doses were 100+) so i cant imagine it having any effect on my brain in comparison to my glory days.
    what about alcohol? could that delay my trek towards equilibrium at all?

    and lastly since i dont want to keep you imprisoned in this thread, can you do me a solid and list some, if you can, ALL of the possibly beneficial vitamins and supplements for the recovery of neurotransmitters and precursors?
    actually that sounds dumb, any chance you have a link with a list like that for simplicity's sake?

    ha, thanks again
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    #10
    Bluelighter rakketakke's Avatar
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    9) Leyton M, aan het Rot M, Booij L, Baker GB, Young SN, Benkelfat C
    Mood-elevating effects of d-amphetamine and incentive salience: the effect of acute dopamine precursor depletion.
    J Psychiatry Neurosci. 2007 Mar;32(2):129-36.
    OBJECTIVE: Midbrain dopamine transmission is thought to regulate responses to rewarding drugs and drug-paired stimuli; however, the exact contribution, particularly in humans, remains unclear. In the present study, we tested whether decreasing dopamine synthesis, as produced by acute phenylalanine/tyrosine depletion (APTD), would alter responses to the stimulant drug, d-amphetamine. METHODS: On 3 separate days, 14 healthy men received d-amphetamine (0.3 mg/kg, given orally) plus a nutritionally balanced amino acid mixture, the phenylalanine/tyrosine-deficient mixture or the phenylalanine/tyrosine-deficient mixture followed by the immediate dopamine precursor, L-DOPA (Sinemet, 2 x 100 mg/25 mg). Responses to these treatments were assessed with visual analog scales, the Profile of Mood States, and a computerized Go/No-Go task. RESULTS: d-Amphetamine elicited its prototypical subjective effects, but these were not altered by APTD. In comparison, APTD significantly increased commission errors on the Go/No-Go task and did so uniquely in conditions where subjects were rewarded for making correct responses; this effect of APTD was prevented by L-DOPA. CONCLUSIONS: Together these results support the hypothesis that, in healthy men, dopamine is not closely linked to euphorogenic effects of abused substances but does affect the salience of reward-related cues and the ability to respond to them preferentially.
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    #11
    Bluelighter mgmt&mdma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrokenMind View Post
    what concerns me the most here is that youre entirely confident that whatever i do, i need to spend years trying out this and if that fails, another couple years with a different regiment til i find something that works for me.

    what about l-tyrosine which eventually breaks down into some sort of prerequisite to the production of dopamine? (if i read correctly)
    do you know anything about this, or is that another thing like 5-htp that is for more mild cases?
    youre correct, tyrosine converts into dopamine. and yup pretty much, theyre just the same thing for different neurotransmitters.

    also, Piracetam (on wiki) does not have any known studies listed for treating any branch of anxiety, depression or deep emotional issues. im not even completely comprehending wtf it does.
    yeah i couldnt find any legit evidence as to how/what it does to the brain but all i know is that ive heard some amazing reviews

    yeah, ive been abstinent for the entire 4 years, except for ONE adderall trip of 40mg. (and yes, it might have delayed recovery, but my old doses were 100+) so i cant imagine it having any effect on my brain in comparison to my glory days.
    what about alcohol? could that delay my trek towards equilibrium at all?
    of course it is! a little red wine here and there is good for you but if your drinking like hard liquor every weekend then its deffinitley setting you back

    and lastly since i dont want to keep you imprisoned in this thread, can you do me a solid and list some, if you can, ALL of the possibly beneficial vitamins and supplements for the recovery of neurotransmitters and precursors?
    actually that sounds dumb, any chance you have a link with a list like that for simplicity's sake?
    5HTP-->serotonin
    L-tyrosine,L-phenylanine,L-dopa-->dopamine

    ha, thanks again
    (my answers are in bold, i just did it that way cuz it was easier for me haha)

    all the B-vitamins are going to be very beneficial when it comes to brain chemistry. especially vitamin B6 & B12. maybe you should check out HealthyLiving, theres tons of threads about supplements n all that good stuff
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    #12
    Although I referred to the 4 years you have been waiting, I did not actually suggest that you take 'years' longer before starting medication.

    If it really has been that long, and you haven't been using meds, perhaps it is time to consider alternatives. However, I strongly suggest Piracetam - not because it will fix you, but it can let you know if the pathways are close enough. Some have claimed that it causes growth of new nerve cells, but it is more likely that it increases the flow of neurotranmistters across cell membranes.

    If this didn't work, after a month or three, I would consider a dopamine agonist.
    I believe that serotonergic damage causes much of its harm through disabling dopamine pathways. In response, your brain over-produces it to compensate.
    This is theory, but not unsubstantiated - serotonin is the great modulator of other systems.

    Taking an SSRI may be necessary, but should be the last resort.
    St. John's Wort should come before either of these, in my opinion.
    Just make sure you aren't mixing it with any other anti-depressants.

    I am impressed that you have been abstinent for four years!
    One use of adderall would not set you back.
    The same does not hold true for MDMA or other serotonin drugs, for the readers out there.

    You got all the basics in regards to neurotransmitter precursors.

    B-Vitamins are another great suggestion.
    Note: they are often destroyed by stomach acids, which is why some people get injections. You can take 'sublingual' liquid drops under your tongue, and hold for 90 seconds. You can feel it having a localized effect, too. Don't worry, it tastes really good.

    Lecithin is awesome. It has choline, inositol, b-vitamins and lots of other good stuff in it. Read about it - lots of bang for your buck.

    Add fish oil and piracetam....and you have a great brain-coctail.
    Don't forget tumeric extract with black pepper.

    This list is full of winners.
    It contains the most credible and potent options, in my opinion.

    But ALL of these will pale in comparison to what exercise can do in terms of blood flow and BDNF.

    Good luck.
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    #13
    Consider Taking moderate doses of fish oil, 500mg-1,000mg of EPA+DHA daily. 500-1,000mg is the total EPA+DHA content NOT the tottal weight of the fish oil its self. For instance a 500mg fish oil capsule may only have 200mg total EPA+DHA (estimate) Read the label.

    It has been shown to if taken regularly for extended periods of time (it will take weeks and months before effects show) that it can help regulate dopamine transmission along with re-enforcing brain cell membranes. Ask your doctor before taking it though, as it may interact with blood thinners (asprin, warfarin, ect.)

    That along with a multi-vitamin, time, and maybe some psychological therapy you should have good results.
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