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    Chasing pills off foil 
    #1
    Hi there.

    Here in London ON, we're trying out a program to try to encourage to avoid or shift away from injection towards chasing off foil.

    I'm currently working on some instructions to include with the foil, but I've only been able to find instructions dealing with chasing heroin, while in this area, the drugs of choice are more usually prescription opiates and other pills (oxys, Hydromorph Contin, ritalin, Dialaudid, Wellbutrin, percocet, etc...), so I want to focus the instruction on chasing pills more specifically.

    I've been reading the site for a while and it's been very helpful in my work as an outreach worker. I figure folks here are the experts, so I wanted to run what I have so far past you to see if there's anything I need to add, or any thin i need to take our because i'm misinformed and about to spread blatant falsehoods. It seems pretty straight forward, but I'm worried I may be missing something.

    Here's roughly what I have so far:

    1. Run a lighter over the foil to burn off any vegetable oil left from the manufacturing process

    2. remove coating/outer shell

    3. crush up pill/beads

    4. crease the foil to hold the powder, dull side up

    5. place a small amount of the powder on the dull side of the foil

    6. have your pipe/tube/ whatever ready to inhale the smoke and gradually heat the underside of the foil

    7. repeat 5 and 6 until you get where you want to be.

    Please revise and critique the above merciless.

    Also, I need to know if there are any of the pills I mentioned above that simply can't be smoked or for which smoking would just be a complete waste of time and money... Finally, if any of you have any tips for actually capturing the smoke with the pipe, that would also be helpful. Swim tried it out with an aspirin to see how it works, but dammed if swim could actually inhale any of the smoke before it dissipated in the air...

    Thanks in advance for your help!
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    #2
    sorry, but that's the most idiotic thing anyone can do.

    instead of trying to get people to move from injecting to chasing, you should focus on injection harm reduction, e.g. micron-filters. focus on getting micron-filters being handed out to junkies, and on getting the message out as far as possible. that's real harm reduction.

    i mean, come on... chasing pills is even more dangerous than injecting for your body. it's so unhealthy, it's ridiculous. why would anyone recommend chasing instead of injecting (wiht micron-filter!) to a junkie?

    even without micron-filters, i think that chasing is extremely unhealthy. and i mean really really fricken unhealthy.

    the only and best thing you could do is buy micron-filters and hand them out. maybe a micron-filter exchange after that. but at first you have to get the opioid users to know about micron-filters and their huge advantages in terms of harm reduction and safer-injecting.

    injecting pills and drugs in common (i would't say that micron filters are only for pills, they work great with heroin, cocaine and other injectable drugs aswell and i highly recommend using them for that reason!) is not that dangerous when the solution being injected is micron-filteres with a 0,22Ám micron wheel filter.

    please, don't tell junkies to chase their pills!
    that's not harm reduction, it's the opposite. with heroin base, it's the other way round. with heroin base, yes, i would try to tell some junkies to try out chasing the heroin. but even then it's not healthy. i think injecting heroin is not that dangerous. chasing harms the lungs. maybe not as much as smoking cigarrettes, but it's definitely harmful. and if you could get some people into micron-filtering and they wheel-filter their heroin/pills, they would be pretty darn safe.

    micron-filtering rocks!!! wheel filters ftw!!!
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    #3
    Bluelighter MemphisX3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LondonHRWorker View Post
    Hi there.

    Here in London ON, we're trying out a program to try to encourage to avoid or shift away from injection towards chasing off foil.

    I'm currently working on some instructions to include with the foil, but I've only been able to find instructions dealing with chasing heroin, while in this area, the drugs of choice are more usually prescription opiates and other pills (oxys, Hydromorph Contin, ritalin, Dialaudid, Wellbutrin, percocet, etc...), so I want to focus the instruction on chasing pills more specifically.

    I've been reading the site for a while and it's been very helpful in my work as an outreach worker. I figure folks here are the experts, so I wanted to run what I have so far past you to see if there's anything I need to add, or any thin i need to take our because i'm misinformed and about to spread blatant falsehoods. It seems pretty straight forward, but I'm worried I may be missing something.

    Here's roughly what I have so far:

    1. Run a lighter over the foil to burn off any vegetable oil left from the manufacturing process

    2. remove coating/outer shell

    3. crush up pill/beads

    4. crease the foil to hold the powder, dull side up

    5. place a small amount of the powder on the dull side of the foil

    6. have your pipe/tube/ whatever ready to inhale the smoke and gradually heat the underside of the foil

    7. repeat 5 and 6 until you get where you want to be.

    Please revise and critique the above merciless.

    Also, I need to know if there are any of the pills I mentioned above that simply can't be smoked or for which smoking would just be a complete waste of time and money... Finally, if any of you have any tips for actually capturing the smoke with the pipe, that would also be helpful. Swim tried it out with an aspirin to see how it works, but dammed if swim could actually inhale any of the smoke before it dissipated in the air... Thanks in advance for your help!

    o_O
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    #4
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    Swim tried it out with an aspirin to see how it works, but dammed if swim could actually inhale any of the smoke before it dissipated in the air...
    If you're really an HR worker, why are you using SWIM? We don't use that here either way.

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    #5
    Bluelight Crew Vader's Avatar
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    Please revise and critique the above merciless.
    You are obviously not an HR worker, I don't think they use "SWIM" or chase aspirin off foil tbh. Chasing pills is terrible for you, they're full of inactive substances that were never intended to be smoked. ssl is right, the focus ought to be on safer injection, not chasing pills.

    Also, who the fuck is injecting Wellbutrin?
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    #6
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    Maybe change your focus to plugging instead of injecting.
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    #7
    Bluelight Crew Vader's Avatar
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    ^It's just not gonna go over with your average junkie though, is it?
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    #8
    lol i remember making a thread about chasing pills off foil awhile ago it got deleted tho, i thought this one prolly woulda bin by now too actualy lol

    edit: honistly tho id only advise smoking oxycontin off foil anything else is jus terrible. dillys somwhat work but still pretty bad and the smoke seems toxic as fuck.
    Last edited by ocpheend; 04-04-2011 at 21:26. Reason: im forgetfull lol
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    #9
    Sorry about cutting up posts to respond to different points, It's just easier for me.


    Quote Originally Posted by sweetstufflover View Post
    sorry, but that's the most idiotic thing anyone can do.
    instead of trying to get people to move from injecting to chasing, you should focus on injection harm reduction, e.g. micron-filters. focus on getting micron-filters being handed out to junkies, and on getting the message out as far as possible. that's real harm reduction.

    i mean, come on... chasing pills is even more dangerous than injecting for your body. it's so unhealthy, it's ridiculous. why would anyone recommend chasing instead of injecting (wiht micron-filter!) to a junkie?

    the only and best thing you could do is buy micron-filters and hand them out. maybe a micron-filter exchange after that. but at first you have to get the opioid users to know about micron-filters and their huge advantages in terms of harm reduction and safer-injecting.
    Micron Filters simply aren't an option for us due to how we get our supples. In Ontario, all exchanges, including the one that supplies us, get their supplies through the Ontario Harm Reduction Distribution Program. OHRDP simply does not carry micron filters. To the best of my knowledge, they don't supply luer lock syringes in 1cc either. And for what ever reason, ppl around here generally don't like anything other than 1ccs. Even if we could get luer lock syringes, buying enough micron filters to distribute on a consistent basis would devastate our budget. So from a practical standpoint, it's a no-go. Right now the best we can do is cotton dental filters.

    In addition to the fact that I just can't get them, impurities in the mix aren't the only concern here and the folks I'm dealing with aren't people who can go home and take their time with a shot. I'm dealing with folks who are shooting in back-allys, by the tracks and the river and in shelter washrooms, where they could have anyone walk up on them while they're trying to fix. Needless to say, steps get skipped. For example, if someone is rushing a shot and skips swabbing the site (or just does it poorly), bacteria on the skin can get pushed into the blood stream, and blood infections suck.

    As I mentioned above, impurities in the mix aren't the only danger we're trying to address.

    Despite our best efforts, sharing and reusing equipment is still a huge problem here. For example, In the shelters, most washrooms have SHARPS containers. They are regularly broken into by people who need a rig. Same thing happened when we tried leaving SHARPS containers at an open air shooting gallery by the tracks... Micron filters don't solve that. Hell, I can't even get enough cookers to distribute them 1:1 with syringes any more. Even when I could, people would still save their washes to use later or sell off to someone else...


    Smoking significantly reduces the risk of an overdose. Micron-filters don't. Apparently, it's a lot easier to get to the dose you need without over-shooting when you smoke a bit at a time.

    Micron-filters don't prevent misses or vein blow-outs from happening.

    Smoking, especially chasing, virtually reduces the risks of HIV/AIDS, HCV, blood poisoning, cotton fever, endocarditis, blindness from Candida fungus, abscesses, etc, to zero. Micron filtering may do a pretty good job with some of these things, but not nearly as good a job as taking syringes out of the equation. Regardless, I can't get micron filters...

    If I could offer it as an option, I would. But encouraging people to change their ROA would still be important as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by sweetstufflover View Post
    even without micron-filters, i think that chasing is extremely unhealthy. and i mean really really fricken unhealthy.
    [snip]
    please, don't tell junkies to chase their pills!
    that's not harm reduction, it's the opposite. with heroin base, it's the other way round. with heroin base, yes, i would try to tell some junkies to try out chasing the heroin. but even then it's not healthy. i think injecting heroin is not that dangerous. chasing harms the lungs. maybe not as much as smoking cigarrettes, but it's definitely harmful. and if you could get some people into micron-filtering and they wheel-filter their heroin/pills, they would be pretty darn safe.

    micron-filtering rocks!!! wheel filters ftw!!!
    No one is claiming chasing is healthy, but it's a trade off. The status quo right now, is that even with filtering through a dental filter, a lot of that gunk is going directly into people's veins. And the fact is that the people who we're chasing that came to us with this idea before we considered it are still a lot healthier then folks who have been injecting.


    Quote Originally Posted by Yerg View Post
    You are obviously not an HR worker,
    Incorrect. Also not really relevant at all to my question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yerg View Post
    I don't think they use "SWIM"...
    My bad for using a term from another board.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yerg View Post
    ...or chase aspirin off foil tbh.
    Well, SWIM also taught themselves to find a vein and get a good flag by using rigs full of sterile water. I guess they're just a learn-by-doing kind of guy. And if they're going to be explaining to someone how to do something, they need to know how to do it too (especially if they're going to come back to me to complain about how they wasted a fix following SWIM's directions).

    Quote Originally Posted by Yerg View Post
    .
    Chasing pills is terrible for you, they're full of inactive substances that were never intended to be smoked. ssl is right, the focus ought to be on safer injection, not chasing pills.
    Well, those substances were never intended to be injected directly into your veins either, and they can do a lot more damage there tbh. Not to mention all the other injection-related harms listed above. But as I mentioned, it's a trade off. Crack is also full of substances that generally shouldn't be smoked, but we still give out crack pipes because injecting it is more dangerous. Not to mention all the other benefits of removing the syringe from the equation listed above. Hell, smoking pot, tobacco, heroine or anything is terrible for you, but injecting substances full of impurities directly into your blood stream while bypassing some pretty important bottlenecks of your immune system so is much worse. Of course, none of that really matters if you OD, which you're a whole lot less likely to do while chasing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yerg View Post
    .
    Also, who the fuck is injecting Wellbutrin?
    I know, right? Regardless it still happens... And is often followed by a seizure according to one guy that did it a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tommyboy View Post
    Maybe change your focus to plugging instead of injecting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yerg View Post
    ^It's just not gonna go over with your average junkie though, is it?
    ^^exactally. But thanks for actually being constructive.

    @ocpheend
    If you managed to get any info to your question, I'd really appreciate it if you could PM me with what you were able to get.

    Any-hoo, I've noticed that most of the treads I've read on here start out with a bunch of replies along the lines of "sorry, but that's the most idiotic thing anyone can do", before some actually comes along and answers the question, so I'm still hopeful.

    regardless, thank you all for your input.
    Last edited by LondonHRWorker; 05-04-2011 at 02:02.
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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by LondonHRWorker View Post

    Also, I need to know if there are any of the pills I mentioned above that simply can't be smoked or for which smoking would just be a complete waste of time and money... Finally, if any of you have any tips for actually capturing the smoke with the pipe, that would also be helpful. Swim tried it out with an aspirin to see how it works, but dammed if swim could actually inhale any of the smoke before it dissipated in the air...

    Thanks in advance for your help!
    yeah the brand name oxycontins are not worth smoking. all the hype you may have heard regarding smoking oxy revolves around the generic oxy ir's from the states aka roxicodone. we dont have them here though. unfortunately, thats probably ruling out the majority of the iv users you are going for.
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    #11
    i know kids that chase 30mg oxys off foil all day..roxicodone.. ive done it too and its a good way to do it if your trying to stop IV, it also tastes good to be honest, like marshmellows

    i stopped snorting roxies to smoke them, and like the method a lot better, a more mellow-nodding out type of high, and pills seem to last you longer when you can smoke half a roxi 30 at a time and feel good
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    #12
    Bluelighter DavidStayzFadedd's Avatar
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    roxiz off foil, just crush it on foil, drop one drop of water rt on tha crushed powder, add about 1 to 2 thirds of another 30 mg pill on the water/oxy/foil.... let it dry out for 5 or ten and smoke, this works a tiny bit better than just chasing them normally or smoking tha powder but either way is good, when chasing rozis u need a lighter u can turn the flame up on, to get it sliding, unless u wanna smoke powder which is also good.... i love the little light blue M 30Z ahh and tha tiny little Az oxycodone 30 mg are bitchin railed popped or smoked,
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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidStayzFadedd View Post
    roxiz off foil, just crush it on foil, drop one drop of water rt on tha crushed powder, add about 1 to 2 thirds of another 30 mg pill on the water/oxy/foil.... let it dry out for 5 or ten and smoke, this works a tiny bit better than just chasing them normally or smoking tha powder but either way is good, when chasing rozis u need a lighter u can turn the flame up on, to get it sliding, unless u wanna smoke powder which is also good.... i love the little light blue M 30Z ahh and tha tiny little Az oxycodone 30 mg are bitchin railed popped or smoked,
    Az's?????? or do you mean the A 215's
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    #14
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    -Don't smoke pills, end of story.

    There isn't any real "harm reduction" in telling people to smoke pills in the first place...

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    #15
    Bluelight Crew muvolution's Avatar
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    I would try to swing it in the direction of needless syringes for plugging.

    One other thought I had is that IF it was possible to get refillable inhaler cartridges - a mix of fluid suspended with compressed gas similar to albuterol or Primatene inhalers, where it atomizes the spray, then a drug user could prep and filter the solution similar to how they would for shooting, but draw it up into the inhaler/ atomizer, and inhale that solution. Thoughts?
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    #16
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    smoking pills will destroy your lungs just as fast, or even faster, than injecting pills. nuff said.
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    #17
    well for harm reduction I would suggest teaching cold water extraction and, if possible, ordering some micron filters from a supplier.

    rather than smoking oxys I would advise them that if the REALLY can't bear the thought of swallowing them they should snort them or plug them. other pills won't work as well as canadian oxy though.
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    #18
    If the budget is a problem, I think that needs to be your focus.

    Alternatives within your budget that don't involve a needle do not necessarily constitute progress.

    I realize this isn't all that helpful but.. then again, neither is chasing pills.

    (But cheers for making the effort if you're really looking to help the community.)
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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by JimJonesBallin View Post
    yeah the brand name oxycontins are not worth smoking. all the hype you may have heard regarding smoking oxy revolves around the generic oxy ir's from the states aka roxicodone. we dont have them here though. unfortunately, thats probably ruling out the majority of the iv users you are going for.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eyes On the Roll View Post
    i know kids that chase 30mg oxys off foil all day..roxicodone.. ive done it too and its a good way to do it if your trying to stop IV, it also tastes good to be honest, like marshmellows

    i stopped snorting roxies to smoke them, and like the method a lot better, a more mellow-nodding out type of high, and pills seem to last you longer when you can smoke half a roxi 30 at a time and feel good
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidStayzFadedd View Post
    roxiz off foil, just crush it on foil, drop one drop of water rt on tha crushed powder, add about 1 to 2 thirds of another 30 mg pill on the water/oxy/foil.... let it dry out for 5 or ten and smoke, this works a tiny bit better than just chasing them normally or smoking tha powder but either way is good, when chasing rozis u need a lighter u can turn the flame up on, to get it sliding, unless u wanna smoke powder which is also good.... i love the little light blue M 30Z ahh and tha tiny little Az oxycodone 30 mg are bitchin railed popped or smoked,
    Thank you. These were helpful.

    Quote Originally Posted by GBM View Post
    <snip>[/U][/B]
    Whatevs.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeighborhoodThreat View Post
    -Don't smoke pills, end of story.

    There isn't any real "harm reduction" in telling people to smoke pills in the first place...
    When the only alternative people feel they have is injection, yes there is.

    Quote Originally Posted by muvolution View Post
    I would try to swing it in the direction of needless syringes for plugging.

    One other thought I had is that IF it was possible to get refillable inhaler cartridges - a mix of fluid suspended with compressed gas similar to albuterol or Primatene inhalers, where it atomizes the spray, then a drug user could prep and filter the solution similar to how they would for shooting, but draw it up into the inhaler/ atomizer, and inhale that solution. Thoughts?
    Plugging just isn't going to be an option for the folks I'm dealing with. The only thing these guys are going to plug is a package if they think they're going to be going to jail.

    The inhaler idea is something I'll def look into down the road. But it doesn't seem feasible in the short term

    Quote Originally Posted by etard7007 View Post
    smoking pills will destroy your lungs just as fast, or even faster, than injecting pills. nuff said.
    Well, obviously. Injection has nothing to do with the lungs. But the reality is that the potential harms of injection vastly outweigh the harms of inhalation. Yes, a smokers cough sucks. A fatal overdose, HIV, HCV, Blood poisoning, endocarditis, they suck more.

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. mudd View Post
    well for harm reduction I would suggest teaching cold water extraction and, if possible, ordering some micron filters from a supplier.

    rather than smoking oxys I would advise them that if the REALLY can't bear the thought of swallowing them they should snort them or plug them. other pills won't work as well as canadian oxy though.
    We give out snort kits, no one really want's them. As I've mentioned, micron filters aren't really an option due to our supply and budget situation and the realities of the drug use of the people I'm dealing with. Cold water extraction is defiantly not an option, as I'm mostly dealing with homeless addicts who are generally using outdoors, shelters, abandoned buildings or in public washrooms. But thank you for the suggestion.
    Last edited by amapola; 06-04-2011 at 10:41.
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    #20
    Bluelight Crew belarki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LondonHRWorker View Post
    Well, obviously. Injection has nothing to do with the lungs. But the reality is that the potential harms of injection vastly outweigh the harms of inhalation. Yes, a smokers cough sucks. A fatal overdose, HIV, HCV, Blood poisoning, endocarditis, they suck more.
    Long term damage from injection of pills has a lot to do with the lungs as that is ultimately where the non-actives that aren't filtered will accumulate...

    Anyway I can appreciate what you're trying to do but think you're setting yourself up for failure. As noted smoking most prescription opiates just isn't a viable option for getting high... either snorting or plugging are far more effective and less harmful.

    Edit: I guess I should add that if the target users are injecting pills without safe practices already (micron filters, sterile water, fits etc), are homeless, injecting in public, and the dangers of HIV/Hep C etc haven't dissuaded them from such use, then they're obviously not that concerned with harm minimisation/reduction. I would wager a greater priority for them would be getting as high as possible from whatever cash they can scrounge together. Smoking pills will not acheive this. I'm sorry if that's grim and an over-simplification of the issue but you've chosen a tough one to tackle.
    Last edited by belarki; 06-04-2011 at 07:35.
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    #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by LondonHRWorker View Post


    Well, obviously. Injection has nothing to do with the lungs. But the reality is that the potential harms of injection vastly outweigh the harms of inhalation. Yes, a smokers cough sucks. A fatal overdose, HIV, HCV, Blood poisoning, endocarditis, they suck more.
    Are you serious? Injection has EVERYTHING to do with the lungs!!!

    Just like you mention endocarditis, injection of pills is bad because bacteria and binders/fillers and inactive ingredients get into the circulatory system. Correct?

    Well, the lungs are part of the circulatory system as well. The way oxygen enters your body is by passing the membrane of alveoli in the lungs, into capillaries, through the circulatory system and eventually are distributed to cells. Well, they have many MANY of these capillaries that are so small that they love to trap all the particles that are injected into the body. Inactive ingredients such as microcrystalline cellulose and talc get stuck and build up in the lungs over time.

    This causes many problems and can lead to a lung transplant, among other things. So it affects the lungs just like it can affect the heart.

    SMOKING pills destroys the lungs also obviously. It is not like smoking weed or heroin. Inhaling the wax, binders/fillers and so on is HORRIBLE for the lungs. It WILL eventually destroy them just like injection. Just as the stuff in pills is very harmful to inject, they are the kinds of things you DON'T want to be smoking.

    And plus heating the pills destroys the oxycodone or whatever they are smoking in the process. It's a waste. Have them snort or plug it! Those routes of administration will yield a much higher BA and get them much higher.

    Yes injection leads to HIV, Hep C, etc., so you should advice against injection. However, you should supply clean needles and at least ADVISE to buy micron filters, even if you cant afford them. Warn them of the risks.

    But again, don't tell them to smoke pills. Tell them to plug it, most opiates get you very high this way. Or simply advise insufflation.

    EDIT: Haha the post above by belarki is primarily the same as my post, oh well.
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    #22
    Bluelight Crew amapola's Avatar
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    Welcome to Bluelight LondonHRWorker!

    As you can see our members have been well versed in how to get the most out of their pills in as safe a manner as possible. Unfortunately as you have said not everyone is willing or able to gain access to the proper materials and follow safe injection habits so we have to ask what then will be the best way to reduce harm to those people.

    You seem to have settled on smoking as the best candidate for ROA as a replacement for IVing. I have to say that this is not going to take with any junkies unless purely for the placebo social stigma "I'm smoking my drugz" effect. The reasons for this are: the bioavailability of smoked pills is quite low, there is no rush akin to IVing, and of course there is still damage occurring as others have outlined. A regular user who tries smoking his usual dose instead of banging it will probably feel nothing but a slight abatement of withdrawal if applicable and will be unlikely to try it again.

    You can only give people so much information before eventually it is up to them to make use of it, but there is nothing wrong with offering the supplies to help them do so. That being said stocking pill smoking kits isn't really a viable alternative. If injection and rectal dosing are out then the best bet is insufflation for water soluble (eg. opiates and amps) and sublingual before swallowing for insoluble (eg. benzos). These are both minimally invasive ROAs with better B.A. than smoking.

    I understand that these methods may not be popular, but I strongly feel your time would be better spent promoting them (with simple facts and pie-charts) than acquiring and pushing pill smoking kits.

    edit: Eg. You can compare the time of high versus potency and other simple concepts.
    Last edited by amapola; 06-04-2011 at 11:34.
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    #23
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    Injection has nothing to do with the lungs.
    Honestly, you could really learn a lot from this site. It must be difficult to reduce the harms of drug use if you don't know what they are. Please, stick around, you'd be amazed how much you can learn and how quickly.
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    #24
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    You can lead a horse to water, but if that water doesn't get the horse as high and fucked up as the water it had before, you can't make him drink.
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    #25
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    Lol iv welbutrin?
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