Z-drugs vs. benzos (your Ambien vs. Benzo Thread is in this one now)

[gaga11]

I don't know much about valerian, but I don't think ambien acts in the same way as valerian.

It's not a totally weak hypnotic, but its effective for mild insomnia.

Valerian isn't effective for insomnia at all.

Despite the above mentioned studies finding valerian ineffective as an alternative for benzodiazepines, valerian is used for sleeping disorders, restlessness and anxiety, and as a muscle relaxant. Valerian often seems only to work when taken over longer periods (several weeks), though many users find that it takes effect immediately.[citation needed] Some studies have demonstrated that valerian extracts interact with the GABA receptors. Valerian is also used traditionally to treat gastrointestinal pain and irritable bowel syndrome. However, long term safety studies are absent.
wikipedia

 

[K'd-OUT-in-AZ]

Ambien is not less addictive than benzodiazepines because it has no muscle relaxant or anxiolytic properties. Barbiturates like secobarbital and pentobarbital didn't have ANY muscle relaxant properties and very moderate anxiolytic properties. The alpha1 subtype of the GABA(A) receptor modulates reinforcing behavior - which is why hypnotic benzos are typically more addictive than anxiolytic benzos. It's just that zolpidem's activity at the alpha1 subunit is weak - making it ineffective for moderate to severe insomnia and only good for mild insomnia.

Yes the barbiturates have muscle relaxant qualities, its non selective to the GABA-A receptor which means it has affinity to all the alpha subunits, including alpha2-3, not just the alpha 1 subunit. This means it does have muscle relaxant properties, maybe mild, but it does. And from personal experience I'll say that they very much do. They make me feel real comfortable and relax my muscles nicely & get rid of the aches before I hit the bed. They also have anxiolytic properties, they aren't mild. These barbiturates were also prescribed for anxiety, not just for sleep. They calm you down very well, decrease nervousness and inhibition. Barbiturates have all the same qualities as benzodiazepines just to different degrees. Both prescribed for anxiety and insomnia. Ambien doesn't have these qualities making it not as recreational.

 

[Anonabyss]

Zolpidem absolutely is anxiolytic, binding to all of the same receptors as benzodiazepines. What makes it better as a sleep aid is that it's duration is considerably shorter than most benzodiazepines, exposing you to the drug for a much shorter percentage of your day. Likewise, you develop less of a tolerance and dependence on the chemical. If you were to take enough ambien to be high all the time, you would be just as addicted as if you took enough xanax or valium or klonopin to be high all the time.

 

[K'd-OUT-in-AZ]

Zolpidem absolutely is anxiolytic, binding to all of the same receptors as benzodiazepines. What makes it better as a sleep aid is that it's duration is considerably shorter than most benzodiazepines, exposing you to the drug for a much shorter percentage of your day. Likewise, you develop less of a tolerance and dependence on the chemical. If you were to take enough ambien to be high all the time, you would be just as addicted as if you took enough xanax or valium or klonopin to be high all the time.

No it does not! Ambien binds to the same receptor but Ambien is a "selective" nonbenzodiazepine. It only binds to the alpha1 subunit, none of the rest.

 

[gaga11]

sounds quite shitty if im gonna be physically dependant on something o might as well enjoy it but thats just me.. and i wonder whats the df between benzo withdrawal and z drugs

 

[K'd-OUT-in-AZ]

sounds quite shitty if im gonna be physically dependant on something o might as well enjoy it but thats just me.. and i wonder whats the df between benzo withdrawal and z drugs

Z-Drugs are supposed to have similar withdrawals but milder. You can't suffer from seizures either because it doesn't have any of the anticonvulsant properties that benzodiazepines do. If a drug doesn't have anticonvulsant properties then it can't carry risks of seizures when taken off. But I don't think its just the anticonvulsant properties that make benzodiazepines carry the chance of seizures. It must be one of the other alpha subunits that Ambien doesn't have affinity to. Possibly the a6 subunit, there has been some literature suggesting the a6 subunit produces some of anticonvulsant effects.

 

[kokaino]

Yes the barbiturates have muscle relaxant qualities, its non selective to the GABA-A receptor which means it has affinity to all the alpha subunits, including alpha2-3, not just the alpha 1 subunit. This means it does have muscle relaxant properties, maybe mild, but it does. And from personal experience I'll say that they very much do. They make me feel real comfortable and relax my muscles nicely & get rid of the aches before I hit the bed. They also have anxiolytic properties, they aren't mild. These barbiturates were also prescribed for anxiety, not just for sleep. They calm you down very well, decrease nervousness and inhibition. Barbiturates have all the same qualities as benzodiazepines just to different degrees. Both prescribed for anxiety and insomnia. Ambien doesn't have these qualities making it not as recreational.

Yes, I know Ambien doesn't have any of those qualities that's why it sucks. It is selective to the alpha1 subtype and even there it has mild activity. Did you also know that there are more "receptors" within the alpha1 receptor? Ambien is very selective in which one it binds too - it's why it has those hallucinogenic effects that other potent alpha1 binding benzos don't have. The Alpha1 subtype mediates sedation, respiratory depression, sleep, ataxia, motor-impairment, amnesia, anti-convulsive activity, and reinforcing behavior.

I know what barbs were prescribed for and I know how they work. What barbs have you used, phenobarbital - butalbital? Just because a drug makes you nice and relaxed and comfy, it doesn't mean its relaxed your muscles. Come on, you should know that! 8)

No they don't. You're very simple minded - just because they have similar effects to benzos doesn't mean they binded to the exact same receptors. That's why the benzo receptors are called "BZD receptors". Barbs worked in a different manner to achieve similar effects (they were mostly hypnotics and anticonvulsants, anyway) - if they worked the same way as benzos, there would've been no need for benzos and they would've had the same high therapeutic index that benzos do. But they don't. I dare you to find me one source stating that barbs had muscle relaxant effects. If they have muscle relaxant effects, it would be very minor (amount to nothing) and it would be a very select few.

Even in when used for euthanasia they have to use muscle relaxants because barbs don't have that property:

Thiopental is used intravenously for the purposes of euthanasia. The Belgians and the Dutch have created a protocol that recommends sodium thiopental as the ideal agent to induce coma, followed by pancuronium bromide. Intravenous administration is the most reliable and rapid way to accomplish euthanasia and therefore can be safely recommended. A coma is first induced by intravenous administration of 20 mg/kg thiopental sodium (Nesdonal) in a small volume (10 ml physiological saline). Then, a triple dose of a non-depolarizing skeletal muscle relaxant is given, such as 20 mg pancuronium bromide (Pavulon) or 20 mg vecuronium bromide (Norcuron). The muscle relaxant should be given intravenously to ensure optimal availability but pancuronium bromide may be administered intramuscularly at an increased dosage level of 40 mg.

 

[Pegasus]

Zolpidem absolutely is anxiolytic, binding to all of the same receptors as benzodiazepines. What makes it better as a sleep aid is that it's duration is considerably shorter than most benzodiazepines, exposing you to the drug for a much shorter percentage of your day. Likewise, you develop less of a tolerance and dependence on the chemical. If you were to take enough ambien to be high all the time, you would be just as addicted as if you took enough xanax or valium or klonopin to be high all the time.

Ideal half-life for sleep is longer than zolpidem's, it ideally would be 6-7 hours (like eszopiclone)...

 

[K'd-OUT-in-AZ]

Yes, I know Ambien doesn't have any of those qualities that's why it sucks. It is selective to the alpha1 subtype and even there it has mild activity. Did you also know that there are more "receptors" within the alpha1 receptor? Ambien is very selective in which one it binds too - it's why it has those hallucinogenic effects that other potent alpha1 binding benzos don't have. The Alpha1 subtype mediates sedation, respiratory depression, sleep, ataxia, motor-impairment, amnesia, anti-convulsive activity, and reinforcing behavior.

I know what barbs were prescribed for and I know how they work. What barbs have you used, phenobarbital - butalbital? Just because a drug makes you nice and relaxed and comfy, it doesn't mean its relaxed your muscles. Come on, you should know that! 8)

No they don't. You're very simple minded - just because they have similar effects to benzos doesn't mean they binded to the exact same receptors. That's why the benzo receptors are called "BZD receptors". Barbs worked in a different manner to achieve similar effects (they were mostly hypnotics and anticonvulsants, anyway) - if they worked the same way as benzos, there would've been no need for benzos and they would've had the same high therapeutic index that benzos do. But they don't. I dare you to find me one source stating that barbs had muscle relaxant effects. If they have muscle relaxant effects, it would be very minor (amount to nothing) and it would be a very select few.

Even in when used for euthanasia they have to use muscle relaxants because barbs don't have that property:

When did I say that I think because babriturates make me nice and relaxed and comfy, it doesn't mean its relaxed your muscles. I quote: "They make me feel real comfortable and relax my muscles nicely & get rid of the aches before I hit the bed" Come, on you should be able to read 8)

Just because they aren't prescribed for muscle pain doesn't mean they don't have muscle relaxant qualities. And I was not referring to phenobarbital or butalbital I was referring to the two you brought up - Barbiturates "like secobarbital and pentobarbital" What the fuck is wrong with your memory. Too many barbs?

And what are you talking about other receptors in the alpha1 subunit? The alpha1 is a subunit of a receptor. I would like some literature on that one. Honestly curious.

And for quoting sources on muscle relaxant properties, I don't need to, I have personal experience. And it relives my muscle pain quite well. That's my source. If I feel it then I know it. I've lived with muscle pain for what seems forever and like I said, although mildly, it does work.

 

[K'd-OUT-in-AZ]

Due to its selective binding, Zolpidem has very weak anxiolytic, myorelaxant and anticonvulsant properties but very strong hypnotic properties. Zolpidem binds with high affinity and acts as a full agonist at the α1 containing GABAA receptors, about 10-fold lower affinity for those containing the α2 - and α3 - GABAA receptor subunits, and with no appreciable affinity for α5 subunit containing receptors.

 

[doppelganga196]

Redosing Zopiclone?

How may hours should you wait before you can redose zopiclone?

I took 15 mg earlier to relieve really bad stressful etc as i'm down to just one (1) last emergency 5 mg diazepam.

In your opinion, hopefully expert opinion, how long should i wait between doses?

 

[Anonabyss]

The α1 subunit is responsible for anxiolysis, much like α2 and α3. Selectivity for this subunit simply introduces more motor function impairment than α2 or α3 agonism, making Zolpidem no less effective, but far less practical of an anxiolytic medication.

 

[Anonabyss]

No it does not! Ambien binds to the same receptor but Ambien is a "selective" nonbenzodiazepine. It only binds to the alpha1 subunit, none of the rest.

Which modulates anxiolysis as any of the rest. The only issue with an α1 selective anxiolysis is increased impairment. You could argue that the fact that it only acts on one receptor gives it a lower ceiling, however reaching full receptor activation is well beyond doses needed to induce a comatose state. Even if that ceiling were within a dose range anyone might use, upping the dose beyond it will continue to increase the α2 and α3 activity the Zolpidem does have, and still at the same rate of increase as there was for α1 activity prior to hitting the ceiling.

Ideal half-life for sleep is longer than zolpidem's, it ideally would be 6-7 hours (like eszopiclone)...

Not for those of us that have difficulty falling asleep but no difficulty staying asleep. For me, even ambien is pushing it, I definitely have a hard time getting up in the morning. I would consider a drug like Zaleplon a far better sleep aid. If I were to design one of these drugs though, I'd probably integrate a combination of chemicals like Zopiclone and Zaleplon, so it hits hard at first but maintains a moderate to low dose into the morning. Likewise, if I had to pick only one drug, I feel like Zolpidem is a good intermediate. I suppose the real answer is that it all depends on the patient.

 

[Pegasus]

^What I meant is that when a sleeping drug is designed, 6 - 7 hours is the ideal half-life. I understand if a shorter half-life works for you, though!

 

[NeighborhoodThreat]

There were two threads about "Z-drug vs. benzo" that started on the same day and were both having healthy discussion so I went ahead and merged them.

Please PM me if you have any questions

 

[debaser]

The half-life is 7 hours.

 

[kokaino]

When did I say that I think because babriturates make me nice and relaxed and comfy, it doesn't mean its relaxed your muscles. I quote: "They make me feel real comfortable and relax my muscles nicely & get rid of the aches before I hit the bed" Come, on you should be able to read 8)

Just because they aren't prescribed for muscle pain doesn't mean they don't have muscle relaxant qualities. And I was not referring to phenobarbital or butalbital I was referring to the two you brought up - Barbiturates "like secobarbital and pentobarbital" What the fuck is wrong with your memory. Too many barbs?

And what are you talking about other receptors in the alpha1 subunit? The alpha1 is a subunit of a receptor. I would like some literature on that one. Honestly curious.

And for quoting sources on muscle relaxant properties, I don't need to, I have personal experience. And it relives my muscle pain quite well. That's my source. If I feel it then I know it. I've lived with muscle pain for what seems forever and like I said, although mildly, it does work.

I'm not regular poster anymore - I'm a moderator and I'm supposed to set an example, so I am not going to argue this with you any longer. You know the very basics - it's quite obvious. But I'll let you "win" this since you know more about this subject than someone with a Bachelors of Science in Medical Laboratory Technology (with a toxicology specialty).

First of all, I'll be very blunt - I'm ALWAYS very suspicious of anyone younger than 45-50 years old talking about they've done secobarbital or pentobarbital or amobarbital or any of those kinds of heavily regulated barbs. I'm not saying you're lying - but I'm suspicious of anyone younger than the ages I gave of their claim of having doing these barbs.

Your knowledge on the GABA(A) receptors are very basic (you know the α subunits and what they do, but you don't know deeper knowledge on the subtypes of these receptors).

I asked you to bring forth a source that barbiturates were good muscle relaxants and you give me your "own personal experience". How very scientific.

Like I said, I'll let you "win" this "debate". I'm not going to argue with you, it's obvious you only know the basics. Go and research allosteric regulation, enzyme kinetics, protein, protein ligands, and DNA.

 

[amapola]

I'd guess before bed but what do you want to use it for?

OD >>> BDD

 

[NeighborhoodThreat]

doppelganga196, as there is an active and helpful Z-drug dosing/comparison with benzodiazepines thread in BDD, I merged your thread into it. Please PM me back with any questions.

 

[Pegasus]

The half-life is 7 hours.

Zolpidem? It's 2-3 hours.