• 🇳🇿 🇲🇲 🇯🇵 🇨🇳 🇦🇺 🇦🇶 🇮🇳
    Australian & Asian
    Drug Discussion


    Welcome Guest!
    Posting Rules Bluelight Rules
  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

My nanna can't tell an amphetamine from a methamphetamine!

From Goodman and Gillman’s - The Pharmacological basis of theraputics
AMPHETAMINE
"Amphetamine (racemic beta-phenylisopropylamine) has powerful CNS stimulation actions in addition to the peripheral alpha and beta actions common to indirectly acting sympathomimetic drugs...."
METHAMPHETAMINE
"Methamphetamine is closely related .... It’s pharmacological actions are similar to those of amphetamine, but exhibits a different ratio between central and peripheral actions. Small doses have prominent central stimulant effects without significant peripheral actions; somewhat larger doses produce a sustained rise in systolic and diastolic blood pressure, due to mainly cardiac stimulation....."
"...Dose of methamphetamine was recommended at 2.5-5mg, 3 x daily"
"Methamphetamine is principally used for its central effects which are more pronounced than those of amphetamine".
---------------------------------------------
My personal observations; meth is longer acting, amph. is more ‘whooshy’ as it comes on (the hair on the back of your neck etc), but also makes your skin crawl a bit like ephedrine. These are just my observations - made some time ago - and like any subjective assessment, are open to criticism. And I only assumed what I was being told was the truth i.e. that each substance was in fact what it was claimed to be.
 
Methamphetamine vs Amphetamine
Amphetamine and methamphetamine are very similar in effect. Methamphetamine is more potent and more euphoric, and IMO lasts *slightly* (a couple hours) longer. Also, the body high is slightly better with methamphetamine. I sometimes experience a mild buzzing/stinging sensation on the surface of my skin on a amphetamine comedown, and never have I found this with meth. Nonetheless, the differences between the two drugs are minimal.
Some tidbits:
METH
* "... less potent in inhibiting NMDA- and glycine-induced cultured cell death." [1]
*More potent anorexic (i.e. appetite-suppressant) effect.
*11% more potent at inhibiting dopamine reuptake. [2]
*"...methamphetamine increases central serotonin (5-HT) levels more markedly than other psychomotor stimulants such as amphetamine or cocaine." [3]
[1]Yeh GC, Chen JC, Tsai HC, Wu HH, Lin CY, Hsu PC, Peng YC. Amphetamine inhibits the N-methyl-D-aspartate receptor-mediated responses by directly interacting with the receptor/channel complex. J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 2002 Mar;300(3):1008-16.
[2]Gifford AN, Park MH, Kash TL, Herman LM, Park EH, Gatley SJ, Volkow ND. Effect of amphetamine-induced dopamine release on radiotracer binding to D1 and D2 receptors in rat brain striatal slices. Naunyn Schmiedebergs Arch Pharmacol. 2000 Nov;362(4-5):413-8.
[3] Munzar P, Laufert MD, Kutkat SW, Novakova J, Goldberg SR. Effects of various serotonin agonists, antagonists, and uptake inhibitors on the discriminative stimulus effects of methamphetamine in rats. J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 1999 Oct;291(1):239-50.
 
Thanks fairnymph, good references. You wouldn’t happen to have any references for impurities found in MDMA by any chance? I have a report on the HBr method done by Sydney University, and some forensic stuff from Canada that’s poorly detailed, so anything at all would be most helpful.
Apologies if I have spelled your name wrong in the past, I know I've corrected it once or twice before posting. Of course we at this end knew what nymph you meant, although you gotta admit, being moderator for sex/ love/ relationships had us wondering for a just a moment ;)
 
phase_dancer:
I couldn't find much on MDMA impurities other than the following:
3,4-Methylenedioxymethylamphetamine (MDMA) was prepared by three synthetic routes. Analytical data from thin-layer chromatography, gas chromatography and gas chromatography-mass spectrometry of the precursors (safrole and isosafrole), intermediates (isosafrole glycol, piperonylmethylketone, N-formyl-3,4-methylenedioxymethylamphetamine, N-formyl-3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine and 1-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)-2-bromopropane), reaction by-products and the product MDMA were obtained. Further analyses of MDMA using other techniques including 1H- and 13C-nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy, X-ray diffraction, infrared spectroscopy, ultraviolet spectroscopy and high performance liquid chromatography were also carried out. The results were then used as reference data for the identification of MDMA in case samples and also to establish the route of synthesis of illicitly prepared MDMA by the study of trace impurities.
Renton RJ, Cowie JS, Oon MC. A study of the precursors, intermediates and reaction by-products in the synthesis of 3,4-methylenedioxymethylamphetamine and its application to forensic drug analysis. Forensic Sci Int. 1993 Aug;60(3):189-202.
I found another interesting study: Bohn M, Bohn G, Blaschke G. Synthesis markers in illegally manufactured 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine and 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine.
Int J Legal Med. 1993;106(1):19-23. -- but unfortunately Stanford does not carry this publication so I couldn't find out the '12 impurities commonly found' that the article mentions in the abstract. :\
Another unaccessible, yet interesting-looking article:
Verweij AM, Sprong AG. [Contamination in illegal amphetamine. Contaminants resulting from the synthesis of 3,4-(methylenedioxy)amphetamine (MDA) via condensation between nitroethane and piperonal]. Arch Kriminol. 1992 Jul-Aug;190(1-2):24-8.
Thanks for noting the spelling (and true meaning!) of my name...spread the word! ;)
 
You're truly a gem :) Thanks so much fairnymph, I should be able to get (order) those through my Uni.
Ultimately, I would like to see an FAQ or something similar that details by substance, all impurities found, and their properties. Not only can I see this being a strong deterrent to using unknown & untested sources, but also a warning for would be cooks who may be intending to produce MDMA a certain way because of ease or component availability.
Oops…remembered I’ve got an exam this afternoon, better get back to study…thanks again fairnymph.
 
This thread is fucking awesome! :D
Massive props to everyone that's taken the time to do some research and post their knowledge in here, it truely is one of the best threads I've ever seen on bluelight... :)
Not only that, but even with all the government anti-drug properganda that's been pushed into my face over the years, it's this thread that has made me stop and think for a sec. And nobody for a second has said in here that drugs are bad. Facts speak louder than opinions sometimes... :)
Keep it up guys!
 
i agree Pleo...its great to see our favourite meth whores uniting to give something back!
;) ;)
 
My nanna is an ungrateful meth whore of course but I would just like to add my thanks to everyone!
As noted above there isn't much firsthand info available on the difference in effects, ie pharmacology, but the info above is very useful. However, to summarise, several people are confirming my original impression that amphetamine is shorter-acting but gives more of a rush than meth. Sophisticated testing would be able to tell a user exactly what variety of drug they have, but it would be difficult to tell precisely just by using and experiencing the effects.
It's probably too much to hope for, but I am still interested to know if anyone has info on the drug known as ice in Australia, firsthand or otherwise. (About a year ago some of our lovely sensationalists in the police and media were suggesting that ice was becoming a worse "epidemic" than heroin, I think more so in Queensland than here in Sydney. 8) I've seen no evidence since to back this up.)
Some posters above have suggested that ice is a totally different drug, unrelated to the amphetamine/methamphetamine but until proven wrong I am still of the belief that this applies to ice in the US, and that what is sold as ice in Australia is a very pure methamphetamine. (My nanna is hoping that someone will prove me wrong. I don't care, as long as someone can prove something!)
Now excuse me, I have a weekend to attend to!
:D :D :D
[ 21 June 2002: Message edited by: D&AWg ]
 
Fairnymph m'dear the above are excellent links on 4-mar/ice! :) I'm not sure how closely related (if at all) ice is to methamphetamine in terms of chemical structure. (I *should* understand by now but my synapses are not computing!) However, my take from those threads is that pharmacologically they certainly seem, if not identical, at least similar enough to be comparable in effects.
The trip reports tally with what I've heard anecdotally from a few users of ice here in Sydney. However, some time ago I also had a dealer show me what he said was ice side by side with what he said was crystal meth, ie methampetamine - and I could not tell the difference just from looking. He said he could. Well... whatever.
Both substances looked almost identical to the images on the erowid link above, which would presumably show substances manufactured in the US - ie like little shards or crystals that were opaque to clear.
This stuff has not been available in Sydney, at least in the various circles I move in, for this entire year.
More recently I have been shown stuff sold as "crystal meth" here in Sydney which looked quite different, more like fine-grained washing powder, yellowish-white in colour. Users reported that the effects were like "mellow speed" and those who tried to smoke it said that it left a lot of burnt black residue, had a harsh bitter taste and did not yield as much smoke as they were used to. Whether this just means that it had more impurities or whether it was a different variety of methamphetamine I couldn't say.
[ 25 June 2002: Message edited by: D&AWg ]
 
Here is the structure of 4-MAR.
As u can see it does not bear much resemblance to the amphetamines at all. (see page one)
Personally i think this is rarer than most people think and most 'ice' is crystallised methamphetamine.
The only time i will believe a person is if they have tested something sold as ice with an EZ test and it doesnt go orange. I dont know what 4-MAR goes, but if it doesnt go orange its not meth.
There is a primary amine present so i am guessing it will react with robadope. There is another amine present also but technically this is tertiary; however in the salt form it may be secondary; so presuming the prescence of both amines does not interfere with one another simons will also react! What a test result hey; pretty definitive for 4-MAR if of course this is correct.
4_methylaminorex_2d.gif

The actual picture of the crystals on erowid is almost identical to what was everywhere in perth a year ago; it was rumoured that this stuff did not test orange.
This is the only potential possibility i would have come across 4-MAR before and i would agree with some of the reports in fairnymph's links: that it was not overly euphoric or 'rushy'; or at least not as much as regular poorly produced "speed". It keeps u up for a very long time and very very switched on; i do support its claim to being this 'smart drug' if the dose is kept down. The clarity of thinking and insight is uncanny. Dose goes up however = WIRED and imo i think this has something to do with blood pressure.
I found that i didnt go berzerk whilst dancing etc as i expected to but rather spent most of the night analysing the ornings and contemplating if they were structurally sound. And i HATE engineering.
Personally looking at its structure and considering pseudoephedrine does nothing to dopamine, why should this? If it is a significant dopamine agonist then its proof of the enourmous impact on activity the -OH group (such as in pseudoephedrine) has to amphetamine related drugs.
From erowid: "4-methylaminorex (also called "Ice") is a potent norepinephrine modulator. Anecdotally, it is said to help concentration and thinking - a sort of "make-you-smarter" drug, with a minor speed-like component to it...4-methylaminorex is highly regarded by some for its use as a tool when writing or working on long projects.
Both 4-methylaminorex and Methamphetamine share the slang name "ice". The name "ice" may have originated with 4-methylaminorex because of the white appearance of pure crystals, as opposed to the clear crystals of Methamphetamine which gave meth the name "glass".'
MAPS: The 4-methyl aminorex experience resembles a low dose of MDMA in that it helps alleviate anxiety. 4-methyl aminorex enhances that aspect of intellectual work that questions, probes and explores the unknown. Some users are reporting that it helps remove 'writer's block'."
-- MAPS Bulletin, Vol 6, No 2
Now they of course are not always right but i considered this to be a sound theory considering the abscence of typical amphetamine/dopamine euphoria, the significant blood pressure side effect, the structure resembling norepinephrine more than dopamine, and the fact that i always though norepinephrine was the 'smart', 'attentive' neurotransmitter. I could be wrong on all of this of course as i am no pharmacologist.
In any event I dont think anyone can be sure for certain exactly what 4-MAR does in the brain relative to the amphetamines and MDMA.
[ 26 June 2002: Message edited by: Biscuit ]
[ 27 June 2002: Message edited by: Biscuit ]
 
I agree with Biscuits description of the effects, people were describing very similar effects from some 'meth' that came through about two months ago. It tested clear with Marquis and Mandelin reagents, and people were saying that it felt very strong.
BigTrancer :)
 
Big Trancer: where was this meth circulating - Sydney/Melbourne/Perth...? (No need to be more specific than that - just want a feel for what's going around in different regions.)
 
soooo..... who wants to be the first to put all of this fantastic info into FAQ-form?
 
D&AWg --
I'm not sure how closely related (if at all) ice is to methamphetamine in terms of chemical structure.
Note that there is an ADD medication by the brand name Cylert (this is in the US at least) that contains the drug pemoline which is also a oxozaline (shit, sp?) like 4-MAR. Apparently it is less abusable than amphetamine and ritalin, but it is very rarely prescribed and I'm not sure why that is the case.
However, my take from those threads is that pharmacologically they certainly seem, if not identical, at least similar enough to be comparable in effects.
Yes, pretty much...other than the whole 'rushy' bit. Personally I think this is due to norepinephrine (i.e. meth is rushy b/c of NE release/reuptake).
Both substances looked almost identical to the images on the erowid link above, which would presumably show substances manufactured in the US - ie like little shards or crystals that were opaque to clear.
The 4-MAR that I have seen looks a little whiter, even in shard form, than meth. That is the only visual difference I am aware of, though, and it is not large enough that I would trust myself to tell the two drugs apart. The best way to distinguish between the two is based on smell/taste (this is presuming there are no strong solvent residues which would interfere) -- 4-MAR has a strong chemical smell that hits you in the face, while meth does not smell very strongly. 4-MAR also tastes nastier/more bitter/more chemical-ly.
More recently I have been shown stuff sold as "crystal meth" here in Sydney which looked quite different, more like fine-grained washing powder, yellowish-white in colour. Users reported that the effects were like "mellow speed" and those who tried to smoke it said that it left a lot of burnt black residue, had a harsh bitter taste and did not yield as much smoke as they were used to.
That sounds exactly like 4-MAR. I'd almost bet on it. The powdery appearance or whatnot I would simply disregard, it's so hard to judge anything in powder form.
Biscuit --
Personally i think this is rarer than most people think and most 'ice' is crystallised methamphetamine.
I concur.
The only time i will believe a person is if they have tested something sold as ice with an EZ test and it doesnt go orange. I dont know what 4-MAR goes, but if it doesnt go orange its not meth.
With marquis reagent 4-MAR very very slowly turns an extremely pale shade of peachy orange. It does not produce the fast turn to vivid orange seen with meth.
The clarity of thinking and insight is uncanny.
Truly!
Dose goes up however = WIRED and imo i think this has something to do with blood pressure.
I agree. I had some fierce heart pounding (as did my bf) coming down from 4-MAR and I do not get that with meth or other amphetamines. And I only noticed this the second time I did ice, and I did more that time.
Personally looking at its structure and considering pseudoephedrine does nothing to dopamine, why should this? If it is a significant dopamine agonist then its proof of the enourmous impact on activity the -OH group (such as in pseudoephedrine) has to amphetamine related drugs.
"All isomers elevated the extracellular levels of both dopamine and 5-HT, with the exception of trans-4R,5R." (Kankaanpaa A, Ellermaa S, Meririnne E, Hirsjarvi P, Seppala T. Acute neurochemical and behavioral effects of stereoisomers of 4-methylaminorex in relation to brain drug concentrations. J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 2002 Feb;300(2):450-9.)
and
"Evidence for increased dopamine activity resulting from 4-methylaminorex administration included dramatic but temporary rises in the levels of nigral neurotensin, dynorphin A and substance P following multiple drug administration." (Hanson GR, Bunker CF, Johnson M, Bush L, Gibb JW. Response of monoaminergic and neuropeptide systems to 4-methylaminorex: a new stimulant of abuse. Eur J Pharmacol. 1992 Aug 6;218(2-3):287-93.)
and
"Taken together, our results suggest that 4-MAX may increase several locomotor behaviors by inducing neuronal DA release, which subsequently interacts with dopaminergic receptors." (Batsche K, Ashby CR Jr, Lee C, Schwartz J, Wang RY. The behavioral effects of the stereoisomers of 4-methylaminorex, a psychostimulant, in the rat. J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 1994 Jun;269(3):1029-39.)
And basically, if you read through the literature, you note that all the studies comment on serotonergic and dopaminergic but NOT noradrenergic effects! Thus my theory that NE=rushy, and NE= the main difference (in addition to more substantial 5HT release with 4-MAR) between meth and 4-MAR.
From erowid: "4-methylaminorex (also called "Ice") is a potent norepinephrine modulator.
Search for '4-methylaminorex' and 'NE/NA' on Medline and ZERO results come up.
MAPS: The 4-methyl aminorex experience resembles a low dose of MDMA in that it helps alleviate anxiety.
I agree...4-MAR has an anxiolytic effect like MDMA, that meth lacks (in fact meth makes anxiety considerably WORSE). I especially noticed this as I suffer from OCD/anxiety.
johnboy --
I've been working on it for a while now -- ETA in about two weeks, quite possibly sooner! :)
[ 28 June 2002: Message edited by: fairnymph ]
 
Excellent info fairnymph; i do agree that your references are likely to be more sound than the info i stole from erowid; which has been there unchanged for sometime.
I wouldnt be surprised due to the structure of 4-MAR, that its rather involved in preventing re-uptake of monoamines also; moreso than the smaller amphetamines at least.
[ 29 June 2002: Message edited by: Biscuit ]
 
Extracts from the Drug Trends Bulletin, June 2002, just received, should clarify some of these questions...
KEY POINTS
1. Amphetamine and methamphetamine (also known as "methylamphetamine") are closely related chemically and have similar kinds of effects on the user, but methamphetamine is the more potent form with stronger subjective effects.
2. Throughout the 1980s, the form of illicit amphetamine most available in Australia was amphetamine sulfate. In the financial year 2000/2001, however, 91% of the seizures of this family of drugs were of methamphetamine.
3. Although there is disagreement between both users and key informants about the forms of methamphetamine currently available, it appears that there are at least four main classes. This Bulletin refers to them as:
(i) "Speed" - also known as goey or whiz, this is methamphetamine powder that is manufactured in Australia and ranges in colour from white to yellow, orange, brown or pink. It is usually of relatively low purity, although the purity of speed may be increasing.
(ii)"Pills" - methamphetamine tablets that are mostly manufactured in Australia and are generally sold as "ecstasy". Sometimes these "fake ecstasy" tablets are mixed with drugs like ketamine to try to mimic the effects of MDMA (real ecstasy). MDMA is almost always imported, as few illicit chemists in Australia have the expertise to make it here.
(iii) "Base" - also called paste, wax, point and pure, this is an oily, gluggy or pastey type of damp, sticky powder that often has a brownish tinge and is difficult to dissolve for injection without heat. Base is manufactured in Australia and is usually of relatively high purity.
(iv) "Ice" - also called shabu, crystal, and crystal meth, this is high purity methamphetamine crystals or coarse powder that ranges in colour from translucent to white, but may have a green, blue of pink tinge. True "ice" is manufactured in Asia and imported into Australia.
Source: IDRS (Illicit Drug Reporting System) prepared by Libby Topp, National Drug and Alcohol Research Centre, and Adam Churchill, Australian Customs Service.
This Drug Trends Bulletin goes into detail on all of these points, but this is the summary.
It seems to confirm my impression that "ice" in Australia is a synonym for methamphetamine - as fairnymph has pointed out, in the USA at least, "ice" is 4-MAR.
 
^ Hence the reason why we try to always identify the chemicals we're talking about by their proper name. Street slang for drugs often just increases the confusion and blur the facts in favour of the dealer.
BigTrancer :)
 
Top