• H&R Moderators: VerbalTruist | cdin | Lil'LinaptkSix

How do you deal with PAWS?

addicted for over 8 years, clean for over 4 years. I did a straight 21 day methadone detox and that was it. I am not saying it was easy, but I will never touch another opiate again, even with being diagnosed with chronic pain for over 15 years. Once I realized the opiates were making me sicker than I actually was, there was no doubt in my mind I had to quit. I did go through some withdrawls and I still remember how anganizing they were, which keeps me from wanting to fall off the wagon. Good luck too everyone struggling.
 
i have severe PAWS from a major alprazolam addiction. i find that kratom and opiates help tremendously. other than that, i try to eat a healthy diet consisting of home cooked meals (organic if could afford it), drink plenty of water and exercise regularly.
 
^I'm happy that's been working for you but I would NEVER recommend someone experiencing PAWS from one class of addictive drugs just relieve their symptoms with another. Its one think to use benzos or other drugs in a VERY time-limited manner if you're coming off of opioids to mitigate the abject misery... but its completely different to recommend prolonged use of an addictive drug in an addict even if they haven't had problems with those drugs.
 
I've made the mistake of immediately jumping into exercise and completely healthy living shortly after kicking.

IMO, once you get your appetite back and your GI issues have subsided, it may be worthwhile to "treat yourself" a bit. The most tempting way to treat yourself would be more opiates. And of course, that almost always ends in disaster. However, I don't really see any problems with pigging out on boxes of chocolate donuts and pots of coffee. I agree that your ultimate goal should be healthy diet and exercise, but I believe you should ease yourself into that, and shouldn't feel too bad about a bit of hedonism here and there.

I think this is very true. I love to pig out in the beginning but I always gradually work my way into healthier eating and exorcise over time.
 
^I'm happy that's been working for you but I would NEVER recommend someone experiencing PAWS from one class of addictive drugs just relieve their symptoms with another. Its one think to use benzos or other drugs in a VERY time-limited manner if you're coming off of opioids to mitigate the abject misery... but its completely different to recommend prolonged use of an addictive drug in an addict even if they haven't had problems with those drugs.


So. What is your opinion on drugs that aren't really "physically addictive" for PAWS. Eg, cocaine, amphetimines, etc.


I think this is very true. I love to pig out in the beginning but I always gradually work my way into healthier eating and exorcise over time.


Once I get my appetite back, I get cravings for the WORST possible foods..I'll sit down and eat a whole chocolate cake at once and hang out in the pastry/bakery section of all-you-can-eat buffets. Good times..
 
^Cocaine and amphetamine are some of THE most addictive drugs. There is a lot more to addiction then experience an opioid-like withdrawal.
 
Raw veggies, fresh veggie juice, and the 8-limbs of yoga will alleviate almost any ailment imo. The lucky thing about being an addict is we can addict ourselves to healthy living in a way that normal people struggle with. We have a drive and focus that can quickly lead to life or death, depending on the direction we take it. However, it is up to us and god to take it somewhere as addicts are very uncomfortable with standing still. Maybe through these practices we can finally learn to stand still...
 
^I don't know anything about the 8-limbs of yoga... could you tell me what that is exactly and how its impacted your life?
 
Asana (poses) is the physical exercise of yoga that westerners are most familiar with. It is one of the limbs. The 8 limbs are all meant to be practiced in tandem as they support each other. The eventual goal of yoga is liberation of mind/body which leads to direct contact with god/energy, called Samadhi.

I have only practiced Asanas, meditation and some of the diet on a regular basis. These alone bring me a great deal of peace and radiance. As I start to understand the other limbs I can see how they are a solid way of conducting one's life. Regardless of one's belief in this philosophy as a "religion", I think that the practice of these principals will lead to a very balanced, sober, and content human.

The 8 limbs of Ashtanga are:

Physical:
Yama - moral codes (includes diet)
Niyama - self-purification and study
Asana - posture
Pranayama - breath control

Non-Physical:
Pratyahara - sense control
Dharana - intention
Dhyana - meditation
Samadhi - contemplation
 
^Cocaine and amphetamine are some of THE most addictive drugs. There is a lot more to addiction then experience an opioid-like withdrawal.


Eh..."addictive" is a tricky word. Cocaine and amphetamines, especiallly if used over a relatively short time (like the duration of PAWS), shouldn't be too difficult to quit. Certainly no more difficult than, say, quitting smoking. And the only "withdrawal" symptom will be sleeping for hours on end. Which is something of a godsend to recovering opiate addicts.
 
^^ its funny u say no more difficult than quitting smoking

cuz isnt it true that more people who have quit cigarettes return to them than those that quit heroin? or something like that
 
While PAWS isn't as well-understood as other phenomena, it is believed to be the result of the physical adaptations that result from an individual's drug abuse as well as the psychological ones.

Much of the literature on how to deal with PAWS focuses on the necessity for allowing both the body and the mind to heal from all the abuse that was done during active use. If someone is experiencing PAWS after say opioid or benzo addiction, then cocaine/amphetamine use may not exacerbate the physical problems but that's not the only reason such use would be problematic.

Many view the psychological adjustment that produces much of those PAWS symptoms as being the result of someone not ever having to cope with life and their unique issues. If people have been numbing their pain and avoiding the tough parts of life with whatever substances, then continuing to do that with OTHER substances is going to be detrimental to their recovery process and specifically to post-acute withdrawals and could certainly prolong those symptoms.

Taking drugs distinct from the ones someone was addicted to probably will alleviate the symptoms temporarily but I think in the long run is not a good idea.

Asana (poses) is the physical exercise of yoga that westerners are most familiar with. It is one of the limbs. The 8 limbs are all meant to be practiced in tandem as they support each other. The eventual goal of yoga is liberation of mind/body which leads to direct contact with god/energy, called Samadhi.

I have only practiced Asanas, meditation and some of the diet on a regular basis. These alone bring me a great deal of peace and radiance. As I start to understand the other limbs I can see how they are a solid way of conducting one's life. Regardless of one's belief in this philosophy as a "religion", I think that the practice of these principals will lead to a very balanced, sober, and content human.

The 8 limbs of Ashtanga are:

Physical:
Yama - moral codes (includes diet)
Niyama - self-purification and study
Asana - posture
Pranayama - breath control

Non-Physical:
Pratyahara - sense control
Dharana - intention
Dhyana - meditation
Samadhi - contemplation

Thanks for explaining this all to me! Very interesting and it seems like it would be beneficial for someone experiencing PAWS for a number of reasons. Thanks for suggesting it!
 
yeah, there's a HUGE tendency to relapse with cigarettes. I won't deny that at all. However, let's look at the immediate consequences of quitting smoking. Lots of folks who are working their way into an exercise program quit smoking and immediately feel better, and have no WD's or cravings whatsoever.

So, let's say an opiate addict followed this course of action:

1. The acute phase: fast taper (like going from normal dose to zero over the course of ~5-10 days) + imodium and night time valium as needed.

2. PAWS: your appetite will return with a vengance..take time to let fried snickers bars, taco bell, and hookers restore your dopamine a bit. Of course, you'll still be left with lack of motivation, minor aches and pains, insomnia, etc. IMO, a simple CR adderal pill for the day followed by some soma or beer for the night, would completely alleviate these symptoms.

3. Post PAWS: Time to get serious...time to hit the gym and get healthy..this is when you put the pills away and transition into a healthy lifestyle. IMO, your body will tell you when it's time for this. Sure, subsiting on chocolate donuts and amphetamines is "fun", but you soon realize that it's not good for you.
And so getting rid of it becomes quite easy.

I've followed this pattern many times, and my history seems to show that this method yields the longest clean spells. I can usually go 5-6 months clean when I do it like this. If I quit and jump right into healthy living, I rarely last longer than a month.
 
^I'm glad its worked for you, but the fact that you keep going back makes me question how sustainable the changes you make are and if they ARE sustainable, why do you keep going back?
 
^I'm glad its worked for you, but the fact that you keep going back makes me question how sustainable the changes you make are and if they ARE sustainable, why do you keep going back?


Well, the way I see it, each stage in the transition to sobriety can be viewed on a scale of how "good" you feel.

We'll call "normal sobriety" a 5.

We'll call being opiated a 10.

We'll call chocolate covered hamburgers, stims, whores, and booze a 9.

Now..if you go straight to "normal sobriety", that former 5 is gonna feel more like a 2 or 3, because of what you've adapted to with the sex, drugs, and donuts. That's where healthy living comes into play. But in order for healthy living to even come close (and an 8 is about as good as we could ever expect, IMO), you really need to BUST YOUR MOTHER FUCKING ASS in the gym.

And sometimes, after all that exercise, sure, you get plenty of endorphins..but there's also gonna be times where you feel like you've been hit by a truck. And at about the 5-6 month point, I start to think.."Eh..a few vikes won't hurt me..what the hell", you know what I'm saying?

Then..BOOM..about a month later I'm physically dependent on opiates again. The binge carries on for however long it takes for me to realize I need to get clean again, then the cycle repeats.
 
So, to put it a bit more concisely...The "sustainability problem" with my method is that you have to work out so much in order to come close to that old opiated feeling that you occasionally feel broken down, and then you slip back into drugs.
 
And once you've grown accustomed to 8-10, the normal 5 will never cut it again.

Ever.

Never ever.
 
^The millions upon millions who have successfully recovered would seem to refute that. I can understand how the anhedonia during PAWS would lead someone to believe that but to say no one who has gotten use to strong drugs can never find contentment without them isn't true.

To have a successful recovery, you have to get away from the addict mindset that you need that high and find ways to cope with life on life's terms instead of trying to feel better by using amphetamines or exercising to the point of excess or eating
booze-drench, chocolate covered whoreburgers.

Its not surprising that you keep going back if you spend the interim maintaining the problematic behavior through other means each time.

You have to find ways to accept that you can't live hitting that '10' level all the time, there is NO healthy, sustainable way to do it. You have to make peace with the fact that life has natural highs and lows and learn to go with those rather than trying to manufacturer the highs all the time. If you don't, you're just perpetuating the problems.
 
IDK if I can do it, amigo.

If I can't have my opiates, excessive exercise, or booze-drenched, chocolate covered whoreburgers, I simply cannot find contentment.

But..who knows what the consequences of such a lifestyle may be. Throughout it all, I've managed to stay healthier than most folks my age.

What's your guess? You think a chronic cycle of opiates/booze-drenched, chocolate covered whoreburgers/overexercise will lead to an early grave?

It may sound paradoxical for a perpetual drug addict to say, but I sometimes wonder if I even have a drug "problem".
 
imo if you can't stay sober for more than a month or two (amphetamines and beer is not considered "sober") then you have a drug problem.

Also, there is a big difference between being clean and being recovered. Drug addiction is a symptom of other issues in ones life. If you simply get off the drugs and don't address those issues, you will inevitably be unhappy.
 
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