Bluelight

Thread: How long does it take at MOST for serotonin to regenerate?

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 29
  1. Collapse Details
    How long does it take at MOST for serotonin to regenerate? 
    #1
    Bluelighter VincentOnE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    NorCal EastBay hitmeup
    Posts
    650
    Why is 2 weeks to a month common for serotonin regenerate?
    Why not shorter/longer?

    What exactly affects the time differences? (Genetics, food, mdma usage etc)
    Reply With Quote
     

  2. Collapse Details
     
    #2
    Bluelight Crew levictus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    3,704
    Well first of all, I think you're taking an incorrect approach to the idea of seratonin regeneration or whatever. While it's a pretty viable theory, I think the reason most people recommend to take at least a month break between rolls is that this kind of schedule helps you avoid the negative side effects of MDMA use. No one really conducted detailed experiments to evaluate the exact correlation between seratonin levels, frequency of MDMA use and negative side effects of MDMA use. Do you see what I am getting at?

    To answer you initial question. The reason that seratonin takes a relatively long amount to regenerate is that it takes several stages for your body to convert basic nutritional building blocks into seratonin. So you body has to do something like this:

    Basic nutritional block > Substance A > ... > Substance X > 5HTP > Seratonin

    The whole idea behind postloading on 5HTP is that it allows your body to skip all the other conversions except for the last one. So in theory this should allow your body to more quickly make new seratonin to reduce your seratonin deficiency.

    The normal conversation process from nutritional building blocks to seratonin just takes something like 4 weeks. Not much else to say. I would also say that food as such probably doesn't have too big of an impact on the whole seratonin regeneration process.

    Does this make sense?
    Reply With Quote
     

  3. Collapse Details
     
    #3
    Bluelighter VincentOnE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    NorCal EastBay hitmeup
    Posts
    650
    Quote Originally Posted by levictus View Post
    Well first of all, I think you're taking an incorrect approach to the idea of seratonin regeneration or whatever. While it's a pretty viable theory, I think the reason most people recommend to take at least a month break between rolls is that this kind of schedule helps you avoid the negative side effects of MDMA use. No one really conducted detailed experiments to evaluate the exact correlation between seratonin levels, frequency of MDMA use and negative side effects of MDMA use. Do you see what I am getting at?

    To answer you initial question. The reason that seratonin takes a relatively long amount to regenerate is that it takes several stages for your body to convert basic nutritional building blocks into seratonin. So you body has to do something like this:

    Basic nutritional block > Substance A > ... > Substance X > 5HTP > Seratonin

    The whole idea behind postloading on 5HTP is that it allows your body to skip all the other conversions except for the last one. So in theory this should allow your body to more quickly make new seratonin to reduce your seratonin deficiency.

    The normal conversation process from nutritional building blocks to seratonin just takes something like 4 weeks. Not much else to say. I would also say that food as such probably doesn't have too big of an impact on the whole seratonin regeneration process.

    Does this make sense?
    It makes complete sense.


    "No one really conducted detailed experiments to evaluate the exact correlation between seratonin levels, frequency of MDMA use and negative side effects of MDMA use. "

    Are you saying that there's no "safe time" in which you can wait, to be completely sure that your serotonin has completely regenerated?
    Reply With Quote
     

  4. Collapse Details
     
    #4
    Bluelighter LSDMDMA&AMP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    A petting zoo
    Posts
    11,686
    what i think he's saying is that no one knows how long, or if it completely regenerates.
    just dont be stupid and you wont has problems methinks
    Reply With Quote
     

  5. Collapse Details
     
    #5
    Bluelighter F1n1shed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Cali
    Posts
    2,209
    No one knows exact answer, to have a huge portion of your serotonin stores replenished i think it would take near the 3 month mark. Who knows if your still missing 5% - 10% at that point, which you probably are.
    And your asking this question because obviously its mdma related, so you have to know that its not just serotonin you look at. It's serotonin receptors that down regulate after each mdma use, and it takes a bit for those to come back up.
    There are other complex aspects of it as well, bottom line the more you wait the better your roll. Also the more you wait, the less damage that occurs. Win win all day
    Reply With Quote
     

  6. Collapse Details
     
    #6
    Part of waiting over a month to roll isn't just serotonin regeneration, it's to allow your 5HT receptors to recover from working so hard all at once. Forcing them to work so often eventually kills off those receptors and can take a long time to allow them to regenerate.

    But to answer your basic question, I think that diet has a lot to do with how quickly your body can regenerate serotonin. If you are giving your body the nutrients to allow those conversions, it won't take as long as if you ate Taco Bell and Doritos every day.
    Reply With Quote
     

  7. Collapse Details
     
    #7
    2 weeks pretty much then it's cushty again
    Reply With Quote
     

  8. Collapse Details
     
    #8
    Bluelighter
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    So Cal,CA
    Posts
    207
    it takes months to regenerate. why do you think you hear stories about people who do it month to month saying they feel like they have less of a brain each time they do it because they don't wait long enough to regenerate. 3-5 months is a good amount of time between usage.,
    Reply With Quote
     

  9. Collapse Details
     
    #9
    In Alberta public schools, it's taught that it takes seven years to restore the neurotransmitters for serotonin every time they are used and broken down. I'm very much unsure of that and can't find anything to cite yet, but here's some information you should find useful about how to replenish it and rebalance your system after depleting it: http://www.drkaslow.com/html/neurotr...repletion.html

    I don't "use", but I found this forum while looking up info on repleneshing other neurotransmitters for an argument and thought this info link might help someone. Be well, we're all in this world together-
    Reply With Quote
     

  10. Collapse Details
     
    #10
    Moderator
    Pillreports.com
    MDMA & Empathogenic Drugs
    severely etarded's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    I-69
    Posts
    7,901
    Reply With Quote
     

  11. Collapse Details
     
    #11
    Those photos seem to be from the oft-ridiculed Ricaurte study... probably not relevant to human use.
    Reply With Quote
     

  12. Collapse Details
     
    #12
    Moderator
    Pillreports.com
    MDMA & Empathogenic Drugs
    severely etarded's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    I-69
    Posts
    7,901
    ^ unfortunately Mdma has neger been properly studied

    Those pictures are the best visual reference we have atm... sorry
    Reply With Quote
     

  13. Collapse Details
     
    #13
    Bluelighter swedger77's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    2,440
    Quote Originally Posted by severely etarded View Post

    Those pictures are the best visual reference we have atm... sorry
    So you decided to fuel the (heavily denied) ED scaremongering by showing a quite scary picture from a discredited study which did not even cover MDMA.


    Why?

    If it had not been for someone else highlighting this fact the OP would be thinking MDMA will cause the irreversible damage shown in those pictures.......what will he be thinking post MDMA use.........cue Post on this forum saying "I think I have caused brain damage"

    This is meant to be a harm reduction forum, not a mis-information campaign.
    Reply With Quote
     

  14. Collapse Details
     
    #14
    Bluelighter swedger77's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    2,440
    Yeah lets start quoting this out of any context:-

    http://www.maps.org/mdma/studyresponse.html
    Reply With Quote
     

  15. Collapse Details
     
    #15
    Moderator
    Pillreports.com
    MDMA & Empathogenic Drugs
    severely etarded's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    I-69
    Posts
    7,901
    ^ This is a really old thread man. I think the point remains that it takes a really long time...
    Reply With Quote
     

  16. Collapse Details
     
    #16
    Bluelighter
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    BC
    Posts
    63
    It took a year and a bit to recover from heavy e use. I went back to normal.
    Reply With Quote
     

  17. Collapse Details
     
    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by VincentOnE View Post
    Why is 2 weeks to a month common for serotonin regenerate?
    Why not shorter/longer?
    What exactly affects the time differences? (Genetics, food, mdma usage etc)
    Dancesafe has a pretty good article on this, including this graph. Their answer is that your serotonin receptors become "less sensitive" in response to being flooded by MDMA. It takes at least a week to get some decent sensitivity back and even at day 21, the sensitivity is not 100%.

    This probably is the reason for the "once a month" mantra, it's a pretty good estimate on how long it takes to gain full affects.

    From the other end, the general consensus seems to be that recreational level MDMA is not *permanently* neurotoxic, however, there will be some temporary loss of SERT function (the fine details however are under considerable debate). Recovery time would depend on how much MDMA was used. I could easily see full recovery extending into years for some very heavy MDMA users. The "roll once every few months or so" crowd might not notice any changes at all.
    Reply With Quote
     

  18. Collapse Details
     
    #18
    +1 for the Dancesafe reference, i'd forgotten what a great resource they are.
    Reply With Quote
     

  19. Collapse Details
     
    #19
    Bluelight Crew Folley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Sitting on a crystal throne in a castle made of LSD
    Posts
    12,237
    Quote Originally Posted by 2after909 View Post
    Dancesafe relies on one of the much-ridiculed Ricaurte articles, making them a questionable resource imo.

    The picture you see there is from monkeys which were given 5mg/kg racemic MDMA hydrochloride, injected subcutaneously twice daily. that's a lot of MDMA. plus ricaurte is lol anyways cause there's his later "MDMA" study (which appeared in Science but was later retracted) in which they--supposedly accidentally--administered meth instead of MDMA.
    ^ EVERY TIME a study is brought up around here, it is immediately discredited using Ricaurtes's. You think EVERY study since the 90s has been based off of that ONE study? The study that was retracted from the scientific community and brought Ricaurte much public humiliation? That's ridiculous, I don't know why you would think you know more about that study than a scientist who would base his life's work on that kind of thing.


    I looked through the study E Tarded mentioned.. there was not one single mention of Ricaurte, there was no source for his study and his awful ideology had nothing to do with what was in that article.



    Since you're so worried that it is only meth causing these problems (based on one small study that was retracted 10+ years ago).. how would you explain this then?
    http://www.utoledo.edu/med/depts/neu...A-METH-Cox.GIF

    That CLEARLY shows that MDMA and metamphetamine cause almost equal "damage" to the brain, they actually lower the amount of oxygen rich blood that is in your brain causing a wide variety of other side effects that change from person to person.. the point is though the two drugs can cause similar damage and just because ONE SINGLE study was fucked up YEARS AGO does not mean every study since then has been 100% wrong. That's simply preposterous.



    Here is another picture that does a great job of showing that it can take quite some time for receptor regeneration to begin:
    http://newrelevant.com/wp-content/up...cy-300x177.jpg
    Reply With Quote
     

  20. Collapse Details
     
    #20
    C'mon Folley, you can do better than that!

    The "study" that E Tarded mentioned was a lesson plan for teachers to tell their students how bad Ecstasy is, and it says this, right under the photo:

    Figure 4.2: Photographs of serotonin axons in the cerebral cortex of nonhuman primates labeled with a fluorescent marker. The number of serotonin-labeled axons is dramatically reduced in the cerebral cortex at 2 weeks (B) and 18 months (C) after the last drug exposure. The brain of the control animal that did not receive MDMA (A) shows the dense network of labeled axons. Images E and F show changes caused by MDMA use on a different brain region, the hypothalamus. The control showing the hypothalamus in the absence of MDMA is shown in D. Photographs courtesy of G.A. Ricaurte, with the permission of the Journal of Neuroscience.
    I should correct myself. It appears this image is NOT from the study which Ricaurte et. al retracted, but from an earlier one. It's safe to say that MDMA was used here, though if I am not mistaken it was used on monkeys at doses so high that their relevance to normal human use is questionable (see below.)

    The first image you provided seems to be from here, where there's not much information about it, but if the study that produced that image was anything like this one by the same guy,, it involved giving rats doses of around 40 mg/kg, while Erowid recommends 2 mg/kg for humans.

    Your second image seems to be from here, where Ricaurte is clearly credited and there is a link to this article. It suggests that the 7-year image and the 18-month image Etarded provided are related. The page the image came from says:

    Ricaurte compared the data from monkeys who were given ecstasy dissolved in a liquid twice a day for four days to other monkeys who received the same liquid WITHOUT the ecstasy twice a day for four days.
    Now, that doesn't tell us exactly how much MDMA he gave the monkeys, but it sounds like an awful lot.

    Aha! I found the study! It says in the methods section:

    Racemic MDMA hydrochloride, dissolved in a sterile 0.9% sodium chloride solution, was injected subcutaneously at a dose of 5 mg/kg twice daily (9 A.M. and 5 P.M.) for 4 consecutive days.
    Again, that's 40 mg/kg over 4 days, while most of us recommend only about 2 mg/kg per month. This is why I think it's very hard to extrapolate from Ricaurte's work to normal human use.

    There are at least a few perfectly good studies on MDMA out there, I'll see if I can find an example. Unfortunately, it seems that there simply aren't many images of the effects of MDMA on the brain from reliable sources.
    Last edited by Clocktower; 23-01-2013 at 04:22.
    Reply With Quote
     

  21. Collapse Details
     
    #21
    Bluelight Crew Folley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Sitting on a crystal throne in a castle made of LSD
    Posts
    12,237
    They dose so heavily so they can make obvious the changes that are occurring, with a single smaller dose it is impossible to track the changes that occur.


    The pictures provided by E Tarded and I are not trying to imply that one dose of MDMA, or even repeated dosing, will lead to receptor loss of that intensity... it is only to show that receptor loss can and does happen. I think you are getting the idea that we are saying a dose of MDMA will deplete your serotonin and destroy the receptors.. that just doesn't happen. But at the same time, MDMA use does lower receptor density and if we can better understand how those changes occur, we can do more to fix it.

    That's why these studies use such massive overdoses of MDMA, they don't want to see what happens with one time use, we already know that isn't going to cause any problems. But there are large numbers of heavy users who have developed some SERIOUS problems from MDMA abuse and the more we understand about the damage that has occurred to them the more we can do to help
    Reply With Quote
     

  22. Collapse Details
     
    #22
    That's fair enough, typical MDMA use is certainly capable of causing damage and recovery times are probably to be measured in months. I'll admit I gave kind of a knee-jerk reaction, what I should have said is that those images are more valuable in context.
    Reply With Quote
     

  23. Collapse Details
     
    #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Clocktower View Post
    There are at least a few perfectly good studies on MDMA out there, I'll see if I can find an example.
    Please do. I would be very interested in reading any studies about MDMA related damage which someone more knowledgable than myself deems to be methodologically solid and free of bias.
    Reply With Quote
     

  24. Collapse Details
     
    #24
    Quote Originally Posted by 2after909 View Post
    Dancesafe relies on one of the much-ridiculed Ricaurte articles, making them a questionable resource imo.
    No, if you read the text, they mention the Ricaurte article, and then mention that it was discredited and should be ignored. Unfortunately since they have about 25 references for that text, I am not sure where they pulled the graph of serotonin sensitivity from.

    The monkey brain picture is relevant but unfortunately Dancesafe fails to mention how. That is what a brain looks like after repeated massive doses of MDMA on the order of 5-10mg/kg per injection (at least 5 times a typical recreational dose by weight), every 6-12 hours, for four days straight (source inference for the method, though there is much questionable in this source's trust in Ricuarte). Yay, they've proven that MDMA is quite neurotoxic at superhuman doses with super-duper frequency. That doesn't mean much for moderate users IMHO, which is partially why there is considerable argument on that subject, scientists are having trouble testing for more typical recreational use. This also becomes a political problem, as politicians eagerly use these nasty results to promote a prohibition agenda. It would be like using water poisoning to outlaw water.

    But I think it's easy to meta PubMed (google: "MDMA neurotoxicity pubmed") and see that temporary loss of brain function does occur, this is noted in countless sources. I think it's *also* easy to observe on your own the people popping 4 pills a week become a bit "E-Tarded", for a lack of a better term.

    However, the evidence of permanent serotonin changes is frankly not that good. There are some issues in the literature for even moderate usage but IMHO they are too mixed to be a concern until further evidence comes up. Plenty of papers spot no real difference between former MDMA users and non-users.
    Reply With Quote
     

  25. Collapse Details
     
    #25
    Here, at least, is the abstract of a study that was brought up on the forum recently. It's a field study, not a lab study, and unfortunately the results really don't say much that's new to bluelighters. (Though it may be instructive for non-users!)

    I think the true purpose of this study was to provide a good example of how future studies should be carried out, and to highlight flaws in past ones. The researchers were very careful about which people they used as subjects, so that they could be sure they were only testing people who used pure MDMA and nothing else. Basically, they found that such people showed negligible loss of cognitive function (which may or may not have anything to do with serotonin, IMHO.)

    I should note that there's already a thread about it.

    Edit: In the interest of staying on topic, here is an article having to do with serotonin regeneration and brain imaging which is probably better than Ricaurte's.

    The quick version: The researchers took brain scans of 24 drug users ( MDMA and/or psychedelics, minimum 12 lifetime exposures) and 21 non-users. Based on their results, the researchers believe that in sub-cortical regions of the brain (depicted in white here), levels of "Nondisplacable Serotonin Transporter Binding Potential" can return to normal levels after MDMA use, AT LEAST 91 days later, ON AVERAGE 212 days later, and AT MOST never. Repair seems to take longer in the cerebral cortex, (1-3 years, by the looks of it) if it occurs at all.

    The article's pretty dense and I'll admit I only skimmed it, so if you're curious it's definitely worth reading it yourself.
    Last edited by Clocktower; 23-01-2013 at 07:36.
    Reply With Quote
     

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •