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Opioids The Kratom Thread

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Random question, of no significance: Kratom contains tannins, which can permanently stain clothes/paper. I brush my teeth right after reverse toss n washing to protect my teeth, but I wonder how my stomach and intestines look, lol. Are they green? Is the stomach and intestine lining constantly being regenerated? I just wonder what my intestines look like through a GI endoscopy. ;)
 
Random question, of no significance: Kratom contains tannins, which can permanently stain clothes/paper. I brush my teeth right after reverse toss n washing to protect my teeth, but I wonder how my stomach and intestines look, lol. Are they green? Is the stomach and intestine lining constantly being regenerated? I just wonder what my intestines look like through a GI endoscopy. ;)

Probably normal.

Consider how many food additives and colorings we put in ourselves from soda alone.

I'm sure it's fine.
 
^What do you think of mixing different varieties (ex: Bali + Red Vein Sumatra)? There definitely is an additive synergy, like mixing different cannabis strains, but I think for the daily Kratom "burner," this screws up their tolerance, since they can't switch strains every day, keeping "strain tolerance," or "stagnant strain syndrome," as Kratomers call it, to a minimum. Using the same type of leaf (like Bali) is best used only twice a week, to keep your brain guessing.
 
Kratom withdrawal is peanuts compared to getting off other opiates. Sure, there will be minor discomfort, but no where near as bad as opiate withdrawal.

At your present dosage, the kratom may or may not affect you. At the very least, it would help with the withdrawals, but I would be surprised if you were to get high from the Kratom at this point.

You are looking at a dosage of 10-15g powdered leaf with your current dosage of bupenorphine, I would think. I know that is a lot, but it will probably be enough to get you out of withdrawal and help you feel ok for a while.

I have to disagree with this. First thing is 10-15 is definitely not needed to keep well from a .5mg sub habit. I'd say 5-6g should be alright.

As far as the withdrawals go, to me they are nearly as bad as traditional opiates and much more then just a minor discomfort. I was using daily 2-3x a day for about 30g total and the withdrawals fucking sucked. Restless legs like a bitch and all the other good stuff. Not to mention they start after about 7 hours since last dose. No need for an alarm clock anyway. You just wake up feeling weird/sick. Hard to explain the "weird" feeling, but it sucks.

And yes Kratom will keep your tolerance to opiates up. I could go months using only Kratom and still need 150mg+ of Oxy for a decent high.
 
^I agree, Kratom withdrawal can be horrid. If you read this thread, you'll see that w/d'ing off of more than 15g/day is ridiculous.

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/244946-Kratom-addiction?

Written by Xorkoth, an ex-moderator here:
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=46082


From experience, and from what I've read, staying at 4 grams or less of good quality (from reputable vendors) Kratom, at a once daily dose, really makes withdrawals a joke compared to other opiates. 4 grams has me feeling better than 5mg hydrocodone, but 5mg hydro gives a worse w/d.

Note: Xorkoth was using premium commercial Kratom, which is weaker than super-grade. Most Kratom you buy today (from reputable vendors) is super-grade. 1g super-grade is 2g premium commercial, as per:
Erowid Kratom Dosage Chart
 
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I have to disagree with this. First thing is 10-15 is definitely not needed to keep well from a .5mg sub habit. I'd say 5-6g should be alright.

As far as the withdrawals go, to me they are nearly as bad as traditional opiates and much more then just a minor discomfort. I was using daily 2-3x a day for about 30g total and the withdrawals fucking sucked. Restless legs like a bitch and all the other good stuff. Not to mention they start after about 7 hours since last dose. No need for an alarm clock anyway. You just wake up feeling weird/sick. Hard to explain the "weird" feeling, but it sucks.

And yes Kratom will keep your tolerance to opiates up. I could go months using only Kratom and still need 150mg+ of Oxy for a decent high.

Agreed on all points.
 
^I agree, Kratom withdrawal can be horrid. If you read this thread, you'll see that w/d'ing off of more than 15g/day is ridiculous.

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/244946-Kratom-addiction?

Written by Xorkoth, an ex-moderator here:
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=46082



From experience, and from what I've read, staying at 4 grams or less of good quality (from reputable vendors) Kratom, at a once daily dose, really makes withdrawals a joke compared to other opiates. 4 grams has me feeling better than 5mg hydrocodone, but 5mg hydro gives a worse w/d.

Note: Xorkoth was using premium commercial Kratom, which is weaker than super-grade. Most Kratom you buy today (from reputable vendors) is super-grade. 1g super-grade is 2g premium commercial, as per:
Erowid Kratom Dosage Chart

It is still peanuts compared to opiate withdrawal, which was my point. Opiates will have you go insane, puking on the floor and in the fetal position. Kratom CAN cause some withdrawals, but if I were to give a measure to the withdrawal strength of kratom compared to opiates, Kratom would be %50 less horrible to endure at the most.

Is it going to be easy? No. But it is going to be a hell of a lot better than opiates. *shrug*

It is often a great thing to do to switch from an opiate to kratom, and then taper from there. The WDs will be easier. It has ALWAYS been this way for me. It is infinitely more pleasant and ignorable if I do it this way. I have worked with people in my support group, and they all report the same.

It isn't easy, but it is easier than full-on opiates.

^What do you think of mixing different varieties (ex: Bali + Red Vein Sumatra)? There definitely is an additive synergy, like mixing different cannabis strains, but I think for the daily Kratom "burner," this screws up their tolerance, since they can't switch strains every day, keeping "strain tolerance," or "stagnant strain syndrome," as Kratomers call it, to a minimum. Using the same type of leaf (like Bali) is best used only twice a week, to keep your brain guessing.

Hmmm.

There are really only two types of Kratom. One type is more relaxing and euphoric, and the other is more energetic. Bali falls in the first category, and MaengDa/Thai/Red-Vein falls in the second.

Mixing the two would simply intermingle the effects of both, I suppose.

As far as mixing them for tolerance's sake, it could help. One day using the euphoric type, next day using the energetic type. In theory, this would help keep the tolerance to both types lower because the body is being exposed to different alkaloids.

I often switch from extract to powdered leaf and back again. I find it helps.

I have to disagree with this. First thing is 10-15 is definitely not needed to keep well from a .5mg sub habit. I'd say 5-6g should be alright.

As far as the withdrawals go, to me they are nearly as bad as traditional opiates and much more then just a minor discomfort. I was using daily 2-3x a day for about 30g total and the withdrawals fucking sucked. Restless legs like a bitch and all the other good stuff. Not to mention they start after about 7 hours since last dose. No need for an alarm clock anyway. You just wake up feeling weird/sick. Hard to explain the "weird" feeling, but it sucks.

And yes Kratom will keep your tolerance to opiates up. I could go months using only Kratom and still need 150mg+ of Oxy for a decent high.

Depends on tolerance, strain, and other such factors.

I said 10-15g because there is an opiate blocker in the Suboxone that needs to be overcome. It blocks Kratom too, which is why that person would need more.
 
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Depends on tolerance, strain, and other such factors.

I said 10-15g because there is an opiate blocker in the Suboxone that needs to be overcome. It blocks Kratom too, which is why that person would need more.

Not at doses of 2mg and under of bupe; at those doses, it acts as a full agonist (and a powerful one at that) at the mu-opioid receptors, thebaine derived, like oxycodone but not as euphoric or rushy. Doses that low of bupe will potentiate opiates, and not precipitate w/d. The small dose of Naloxone in Suboxone is inactive sublingually. It's actually the high binding affinity of high doses of bupe that block opiates, only Tramadol and Nucynta can be used with it, since O-Des/Tapentadol's binding affinities are even higher than bupe's.

Thanks for all the answers, man. It's nice to see the Kratom board active again. :D
 
It is still peanuts compared to opiate withdrawal, which was my point. Opiates will have you go insane, puking on the floor and in the fetal position. Kratom CAN cause some withdrawals, but if I were to give a measure to the withdrawal strength of kratom compared to opiates, Kratom would be %50 less horrible to endure at the most.

Is it going to be easy? No. But it is going to be a hell of a lot better than opiates. *shrug*

It is often a great thing to do to switch from an opiate to kratom, and then taper from there. The WDs will be easier. It has ALWAYS been this way for me. It is infinitely more pleasant and ignorable if I do it this way. I have worked with people in my support group, and they all report the same.

It isn't easy, but it is easier than full-on opiates.

Kratom can be just as violent and unpleasant to withdraw from as regular full-agonist opiates.

More forgiving? Slightly.

Easier? No.

The mental aspects of the withdrawal are seriously amplified for me, not to mention the restless legs x1000. A small portion of the physical stuff is slightly less intense, but still extremely prevalent, unpleasant and is not a joke if you've built a serious Kratom dependence.

As far as using 15g+ to come off of .5mg bupe, that is totally overkill. ErgicMergic has the right idea, the naloxone is orally/sublingually inactive, and would not need any "overcoming." The 'blockade' effect comes from it's high binding affinity, as also mentioned.

The whole point to using kratom for coming off of opiates is to use the absolute smallest effective dosage possible, as least often as possible. Eating half of an ounce of Kratom would be counter-productive, at best, and is just flat out bad advice. Nib is on the right track here, though.

Also, BuddingPharmacist, please use the "Edit" function to add to a post, instead of posting multiple times.
 
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Kratom can be just as violent and unpleasant to withdraw from as regular full-agonist opiates.

More forgiving? Slightly.

Easier? No.

The mental aspects of the withdrawal are seriously amplified for me, not to mention the restless legs x1000. A small portion of the physical stuff is slightly less intense, but still extremely prevalent, unpleasant and is not a joke if you've built a serious Kratom dependence.

As far as using 15g+ to come off of .5mg bupe, that is totally overkill. ErgicMergic has the right idea, the naloxone is orally/sublingually inactive, and would not need any "overcoming." The 'blockade' effect comes from it's high binding affinity, as also mentioned.

The whole point to using kratom for coming off of opiates is to use the absolute smallest effective dosage possible, as least often as possible. Eating half of an ounce of Kratom would be counter-productive, at best, and is just flat out bad advice. Nib is on the right track here, though.

Also, BuddingPharmacist, please use the "Edit" function to add to a post, instead of posting multiple times.

I am only relating my experiences. Kratom has always been half as bad in terms of withdrawal for me than other opiates, and my friends thought the same.

Back when I was getting off comparable doses of opiates to the person I was talking to, and was using Kratom to do so, I was using about 12g of powdered leaf to stay ok for the entire day. This meaning I was taking about 6g every 12 hours.

I was talking in terms of daily usage to stay withdrawal free. I thought this was what the person was asking. Next time, I will be sure to clarify each individual dose.

I'm certain that huge kratom usage would bring about some nasty withdrawals. I wasn't saying it wouldn't. I still feel, however, that kratom withdrawals are a hell of a lot less nasty than opiate withdrawals.

I meant no offense, moderator. I'm only saying what my many years of Kratom experience has taught me. :)
 
You certainly have not offended me. You also don't need to explain yourself.

Take note: here on Bluelight the things you say and advice you are giving are open to interpretation. Exaggerations and hyperbole are very poor ways to get your points across here, and an even worse way to give someone advice.

That said, I think it is important to consider how people can (or even might) interpret your posts before you post them.

Back to the topic at hand though, Kratom withdrawals are certainly "more forgiving" in some respects than typical poppy-derived, full-agonist opiate withdrawals, I will agree.

But, no one should be mislead into thinking they will be any easier to deal with. I would not say they are "easier" in any sense of the word. They can be every bit as painful and unpleasant when you dig the hole deep enough, just as with opiates.
 
Kratom DEFINITELY contributes to opioid tolerance. As someone mentioned earlier, I can go months and months and months without even looking at a pill or poppy, using kratom only a couple times a week, and tolerance remains. I will maybe come across barely a evening's worth of vikes/percs every ~4-6 months so I RARELY use opiates. Just the other night, I CWE'd six 5/500 vicodins, so ~30mg hydrocodone on an empty stomach, and barely felt a thing from it. Back when I was opiate naive, 30mg of hydrocodone would've had me puking and calling 911.

However, my normal 10g dose of bali will always give me SOME effect, even if it is mild, there is always something, regardless of tolerance.

The best thing is to use them in conjunction. ;)
 
^YES I can confirm this. And that Kratom withdrawal is horrible. In fact, I was so surprised by how bad the withdrawal was, that I forgot quitting and went back to IV heroin. I was also amazed when I found that one bag of dope didn't get me high (Kratom straight for ~6months, no heroin in a year if I recall. )

Of course, when I kicked that heroin habit some time later, it too was horrible. I would describe it as being more horrible. But more horrible does not make plain old horrible any easier. Terrible analogy, but getting shot by a .45 ACP would be more horrible than a .22 pistol cartridge. Might be hard to be consoled by this true fact when you have a .22 lodged against your ribs.

A better analogy would be when I am too hot or cold. When I am too cold, I always debate which is worse. This leads me to conclude that being too cold is worse. Then when I am too hot, I come to the opposite conclusion. Something that sucks is not negated by things that suck more! In fact I would argue that my first every kick (tramadol) was worse than kicking IV heroin in jail. First time always sucks and leaves a lasting impression.

Or like how your first bump of coke is infinity better than your massive 1000'th line. It's more subjective than objective.

EDIT: woops I forgot my point. My point is that I always seem to conclude that different symptoms are worse and better, and will often contradict what I said the previous kick.... "AHHH these stomach cramps!! I would trade this for the kicks in a second!" 14 days later... "AHH I Can't get 30 min of sleep because of these damn kicks!! I would trade this for the cramps in a second!" True story.
 
Here's 1 of many reasons why kratom is great - you can dump it in cold tea or orange juice or whatever, and the powder just sits on top. Stir it up - powder still on top. Take a drink and blow out powder. You can stir it real good and pay careful attention to make sure you are getting the powder wet...stick the spoon down in your cold beverage and pour it back onto the powder - the shit is still not wet. Freakin amazing man. I'm a fan.
 
^One of the most annoying things about Kratom, haha. If it got wet we can just mix it with a bit of water and call it a day. But nooo, you gotta be all hydrophobic. It's ok, Kratom, I still love ya. <3
 
If only the bugger were water soluble.

People would be shooting it up like there's no tomorrow.
 
Lately I have been consuming my kratom powder by mixing it with chocolate syrup and eating it. I find it to be the quickest way to get it down and reasonably palatable.
 
^YES I can confirm this. And that Kratom withdrawal is horrible. In fact, I was so surprised by how bad the withdrawal was, that I forgot quitting and went back to IV heroin. I was also amazed when I found that one bag of dope didn't get me high (Kratom straight for ~6months, no heroin in a year if I recall. )

Of course, when I kicked that heroin habit some time later, it too was horrible. I would describe it as being more horrible. But more horrible does not make plain old horrible any easier. Terrible analogy, but getting shot by a .45 ACP would be more horrible than a .22 pistol cartridge. Might be hard to be consoled by this true fact when you have a .22 lodged against your ribs.

A better analogy would be when I am too hot or cold. When I am too cold, I always debate which is worse. This leads me to conclude that being too cold is worse. Then when I am too hot, I come to the opposite conclusion. Something that sucks is not negated by things that suck more! In fact I would argue that my first every kick (tramadol) was worse than kicking IV heroin in jail. First time always sucks and leaves a lasting impression.

Or like how your first bump of coke is infinity better than your massive 1000'th line. It's more subjective than objective.

EDIT: woops I forgot my point. My point is that I always seem to conclude that different symptoms are worse and better, and will often contradict what I said the previous kick.... "AHHH these stomach cramps!! I would trade this for the kicks in a second!" 14 days later... "AHH I Can't get 30 min of sleep because of these damn kicks!! I would trade this for the cramps in a second!" True story.

How long have you been using kratom? How often do you use? What's your usual dose?

Also, same exact questions for your heroin/opiate usage: When did you start, how long, how much and how often?


I ask because I'm starting to think that folks who have experienced opiate withdrawals in the past will experience much harsher kratom withdrawals. Personally, I've only been moderately addicted to poppy pods, only was addicted for about half a year, and wasn't using every single day the whole time. I also never became addicted to any synthetic/street opiates despite occasional usage of pharms. Point being, I've never gone through SERIOUS withdrawals, the worst I've ever had were fatigue, cold sweats, insomnia, RLS, basically I felt as if I was fighting off the flu but never actually came down with it, lasted about a week, and that was that. My body has never experienced an intense, debilitating withdrawal, so it doesn't know what to expect from one. If your body has already experienced a horrid opiate withdrawal from an IV heroin habit, and you start withdrawing from kratom, your body may subconsciously think "Oh no!! Not this again!!!" thinking it's about to go into a heroin-like withdrawal, and go into freak-out/defense mode as a result.

I am not by any means saying that your withdrawals are "all on your head", I'm definitely not saying that, however I am saying that part of it might be your subconscious or your body's defense mechanism, kind of in the same way you might feel after getting behind the wheel of a car for the first time a few months after suffering a severe car accident...you will be anxious as fuck, probably shaking, sweating, etc.., because your body/brain remember what happened last time it was in this position. If you're expecting the withdrawals to be awful, they probably will be. Using myself as an example, I've been using kratom way, way more often than I should for the past few months, and I check myself every so often, I let supply run out and force a break for a few days while I wait for the new shipment. These days without kratom are never that bad, with the absolute worst symptom simply being CRAAAAAAVING some of that delicious liquid baby-diarrhea cocktail. I might be a tad unmotivated, slightly depressed or just not very enthusiastic, at the ABSOLUTE WORST I might get some minor cold sweats and insomnia, but even the worst of the worst symptoms disappear after a mere day. Within two days I'm sailing straight as an arrow. Then when my order of kratom gets here....HOLY wow I can't see heroin being much better than kratom on those days.... :)
 
The anticipation of withdrawal is pretty tortuous in itself, I gotta agree with you there. Of course anyone who has gone through opiate withdrawal would naturally fear it happening again I think, at least on some level, you know? But I've gone through some pretty fierce kratom withdrawals, and like I was saying earlier it is certainly not going to be a walk in the park if you start digging the hole deep enough, just as with good ole full-agonists.

Glad to hear you find them bearable enough, though.
 
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At what dose, frequency, and time frame did it take for serious withdrawal symptoms to develop, Oxide?

I have never to my knowledge experienced kratom withdrawals, as I tend to use it only as nice cushion during pharmaceutical/pod withdrawals.
 
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