Opioids The Kratom Thread

[Pegasus]

^I think the potentiators do work... I've tried WGFJuice beforehand and I found it to help.

 

[KingBlueTwista]

Hey guys, can I get some advice please?

When I first encountered kratom about 6-7 months ago the high was very warm, comfy, smooth and creative from beginning to end. I used it on average about once or twice a week for about 2 months to begin with, and took breaks every so often - my tolerance has never gone up by more than a few grams. However, within the last month whenever I take kratom I get mainly dysphoric effects! The first 1/1.5 hours are great, same as they used to be, but after that the high usually takes a turn for the worse. I overheat a lot, I can't concentrate, I feel irritated and just generally out of it (and not the good kind of out-of-it kratom can sometimes bequeath). The effects are no longer pro-social in nature either, which sucks as that was one of my favourite things about them (that and the ease with which it enabled me to enter the creative state of flow). It seems that the threshold at which some of the negative effects of what seems like an overdose appear has been lowered in me, except I don't experience typical opioid symptoms of large intake ie. itching, major constipation. As I said previously, my intake is practically the same! I've tried going lower, but it gets to the point where there are no longer any really noticable pleasant effects, at least nowhere near the kratom high I came to know and love.

So I have some questions.. has anyone else experienced this on kratom? A sudden loss of the magic not due to tolerance, even a turn towards a generally negative experience? Was there anything you could do to alleviate this bullshit? Also might adding a benzo to the mix and lowering my kratom intake solve this perplexing problem?

 

[Pothedd]

What kind of Kratom are you using? Have you changed strains or vendors recently?

 

[Pegasus]

I think lowering your dose could be beneficial. It's a plant full of other things besides the drug/drugs you're after... These certainly cause unwanted side effects. Lowering the dose certainly helped in my case.

 

[Pothedd]

Last time I took Kratom I followed it up with some Benadryl in an attempt to sleep peacefully.
Instead my heart started racing and it kept me awake. Felt like I was going to have a heart attack. I haven't touch Kratom since...

 

[KingBlueTwista]

I usually (or used to) use either green malay or green indo, I've always had the same vendor and the change in effects I described was experienced from exactly the same batch It seems as if the only explanation could be that my neurochemistry has suddenly been altered. I can't remember where I heard this but isn't the opiate system closely linked to the seretonergic system? If so that might explain a bit as I recently went a bit overboard on MDMA a few times and had a pretty intense affair with a psychedelics for about 2 months a while back.

I think I will experiment again with lowering the dose. Previously I was on about 8-9 grams, so I guess I'll try around 5 and see if that works. Thanks for the suggestion peg

 

[Pothedd]

Yea I liked Indo. Seemed to be more sedating.
Dosage is probably a good idea, but I would say to order 7-hydroxymitragynine direct. This is the major component of Kratom and the mechanism behind its opioid analgesic.

According to wiki:
"It has opioid agonistic activity. 'The potency... was 30- and 17-fold higher than that of mitragynine and morphine, respectively.'"
PM me and I'll direct you to a vendor...

 

[dcraver877]

Last time I took Kratom I followed it up with some Benadryl in an attempt to sleep peacefully.
Instead my heart started racing and it kept me awake. Felt like I was going to have a heart attack. I haven't touch Kratom since...

kratom is closely related to the coffee plant and it is a stimulant. You probably took a thai strain and were not used to kratom since it has reverse tolerance properties.

 

[Pothedd]

^That would explain it. It was like a hallucinogenic overdose of caffeine, swear to god. Terrifying...

I definitely say to just order the main alkaloid. I've yet to try it on its own, but I would wager it lacks the "full spectrum" of effects that may be causing your adverse reaction.
Then again, opioids have a tendency to cause dysphoria in susceptible individuals. It is a depressant.

Edit: This could DEFINITELY be caused by depleted serotonin levels. I wasn't medicated and suicidal until I did ecstasy pretty much every week, 3 days in a row at a time, for about a year straight.
Try 5-HTP to regain some of the lost neurotransmitters, as well as vitamins E and C to reduce oxidative stress. When you feel "normal(ish?)" try taking a normal(ish) dose of kratom again.

Edit 2: Check out this report. Sounds good to me. http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=62085

 

[Pegasus]

Kratom also induces quite a bit of anxiety. I find it to be up there with cannabis in terms of potential anxiety. If you mix the two, I imagine that you'll probably have a full-blown anxiety attack at some point even if you're not prone to them. Even without cannabis though, an anxiety attack can easily occur.

 

[Seattle_Stranger]

Kratom also induces quite a bit of anxiety. I find it to be up there with cannabis in terms of potential anxiety. If you mix the two, I imagine that you'll probably have a full-blown anxiety attack at some point even if you're not prone to them. Even without cannabis though, an anxiety attack can easily occur.

Interesting how you say this, I see it as the complete opposite, depending on the strain you use. I find a moderate dose of bali kratom, followed up by a toke of good chronic at the peak provides a buzz better than oxy or hydro IMO. Extremely euphoric, giddy, empathetic, and completely anxiety free. As a matter of fact, this is my go-to on days when I'm feeling especially anxious. Add some kava kava to the mix and I'll forget what anxiety is! All the while not being too inebriated to get things done. I've spent entire days at work on rather strong doses of all three, and am probably more productive in said state. Right now I'm enjoying the effects from 9g bali kratom from this morning, and I'm sipping on some kava as we speak. Anxiety is miles away...

However, thai strains are far more stimulating and less euphoric. Higher doses of thai maeng da certainly make me very edgy, nauseous and jittery.

Half the fun of kratom is trying all the different strains and seeing which one works best for you! Once you find that one strain that outshines the rest, and you find the perfect 'sweet-spot' dosage, kratom will rocketship to the top of your HOC (herbs of choice) list, without a doubt. There's no other legal herb out there that provides this much euphoria!

Kratom sort of has three types of highs that come with it. You either don't take enough and you get nothing, or you take too much and get awful effects, or you get the dose just right, and get a surprisingly pleasurable high. The problem is that the sweet spot is usually a pretty small window, so it's really easy to under or over shoot it, resulting in less than desirable effects. Kratom's effects do not directly increase with dosage, the effects actually change and go from good to bad in difference of as little as a gram.

 

[Pegasus]

^I agree with most of your post actually-- I think the effects can certainly be better than oxy/ hydro. I just feel that it is a bit more angsty too, possibly due to the other crap in the leaves. It's a feel kind of similar to caffeine stimulation, with the jitters, etc, along with stimulation.

 

[Pothedd]

I'm growing increasingly interested in purchasing some 7-HO-MIT. Methinks this would remove much of the negative effects associated with consumption of large amounts of plant matter.
Apparently alkaloids make up only 1% of the kratom plant. That would explain the extraordinary doses one has to choke down to produce substantial effect.

 

[George_Jung]

Going to order some Kratom either later today or tomorrow. Was thinking about starting off with 15g, I have a pretty high opiate tolerance.

Any suggestions?

 

[Pegasus]

^Yeah, if you're not experienced with kratom, don't start at 15g! Start at like 7g max. The nausea isn't the same as opiate nausea-- I had a high tolerance when I was taking all the time and more than 8g made me very ill. Kratom-induced nausea is pretty painful.

 

[RJ5151]

hey guys,

I'm still kind of new here but i must say i love this forum and the help it is providing, so to the Bluelight Crew, I send a huge thanks for what ya'll are doing in harm reduction.

Now on to Kratom....

I started using the bali kratom powder on saturday night, didn't get much saturday but sunday i dosed on an empty stomach and it was incredible, just like drinking two energy shots and popping a couple hydros. Then today i took a dose before going to jury duty and i didn't feel much but i was very warm and content. When I got home i dosed again and have a mild buzz now, but the thing i want to ask is how fast does tolerance usually build? I really want to feel like yesterday but so far have not. Also, I have noticed when i toke up it is a much headier high than before, not only when i have recently used kratom but every time i toke i notice this, has anyone else experienced this? And one more thing in your experience what are your favorite strains of kratom?

thanks, peace love and Tea for all...

 

[Pegasus]

^I found kratom tolerance to build pretty relatively slowly. I found that slight alterations in dose had more of an impact on the experience than anything (except stomach contents).

I'm not sure what you mean by a headier high?

My favorite strains of kratom are Bali and Maeng Da... Bali is a great all purpose leaf, fairly sedating, while Maeng Da is more of a specialty strain that is quite a bit more expensive but also very potent and very stimulating.

 

[RJ5151]

By headier I mean even though i still have the same ditch weed as i did before(and it has got to be an indica heavy strain, because usually it makes me stoned like i don't want to get off the couch.) Now when i smoke it it is almost like a strong sativa-like high... I.E. I get lost in thought and have much more energy while high.

Bali is all i have tried but i really enjoy it, and i read that a lot of people don't like the taste and that it gives them nausea, but I have been using the "toss and wash" method and i think it taste like green tea, I am thinking about putting a good bit in with my dipping tobacco, do you think this would give me the stimulant like effect?

 

[ErgicMergic]

To the experienced Kratomers: would you prefer Kratom, Tramadol, or Hydrocodone for pain? Kratom is a lot more forgiving than hydro/oxy for extended use, and the NRI effects help with pain. Tramadol's long duration, and SNRI help a lot with pain. Hydrocodone's opiate activity is "stronger" than Kratom/Tramadol... so which one do you prefer?

I can get decent pain relief from Bali, but it is gone within 4 hours, like hydrocodone. Tramadol's analgesia lasts all day. I've been using Kratom for 5 months now, mostly at tiny maintenance doses (0.5-1.5g). I take 3-4g of Bali or SGM when needed for pain.

 

[Seattle_Stranger]

To the experienced Kratomers: would you prefer Kratom, Tramadol, or Hydrocodone for pain? Kratom is a lot more forgiving than hydro/oxy for extended use, and the NRI effects help with pain. Tramadol's long duration, and SNRI help a lot with pain. Hydrocodone's opiate activity is "stronger" than Kratom/Tramadol... so which one do you prefer?

I can get decent pain relief from Bali, but it is gone within 4 hours, like hydrocodone. Tramadol's analgesia lasts all day. I've been using Kratom for 5 months now, mostly at tiny maintenance doses (0.5-1.5g). I take 3-4g of Bali or SGM when needed for pain.

Personally, if I had a reason to need to maintain pain, I'd grab the scripts of opiates from my doctor and just stock them away, and use kratom daily to manage the main. I would never want to use opiates daily. Kratom is far more forgiving for habitual use and kills pain surprisingly well. I also notice kratom tolerance to build much slower than opiates.

hey guys,

I'm still kind of new here but i must say i love this forum and the help it is providing, so to the Bluelight Crew, I send a huge thanks for what ya'll are doing in harm reduction.

Now on to Kratom....

I started using the bali kratom powder on saturday night, didn't get much saturday but sunday i dosed on an empty stomach and it was incredible, just like drinking two energy shots and popping a couple hydros. Then today i took a dose before going to jury duty and i didn't feel much but i was very warm and content. When I got home i dosed again and have a mild buzz now, but the thing i want to ask is how fast does tolerance usually build? I really want to feel like yesterday but so far have not. Also, I have noticed when i toke up it is a much headier high than before, not only when i have recently used kratom but every time i toke i notice this, has anyone else experienced this? And one more thing in your experience what are your favorite strains of kratom?

thanks, peace love and Tea for all...

Try this: Go to the store and buy an antacid called Tagamet (cimetidine). It's OTC and has no CNS effects of it's own, however it inhibits enzymes in your stomach that alter the way kratom (and other drugs) are absorbed. I find that when using 200-400mg of cimetidine before my kratom dose, not only is the effect much stronger, but also 'headier', in the sense of it's more euphoric to one's state of mind as opposed to giving a body high.

Also, another thing to try is mixing the kratom into orange juice. The powder won't dissolve into the water, it will simply take on the consistency of diluted mud, however if you mix it around and then down the juice while the plant matter is suspended in the juice, not only is it easier to get it all down but it absorbs faster and better. You should also try doing this on a relatively empty stomach, but then eat something soon after. Between this method, and using cimetidine, no other ROA gives me better, faster effects from kratom.

And yes kratom normally hits me within 15 minutes, plateauing around the 45 minute mark, with strong euphoric effects lasting about 2 hours and anxiety relief/stimulation lasting the remainder of the day.