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    The Kratom Thread 
    #1
    Edit-This is the thread for collected experiences and discussions related to kratom. This thread should be used to answer any and all questions about the use of kratom as a medicine/ drug.


    I am in the process of breaking a 3 year long various opiate habit that has gone up and down, but has always been with me. It has ranged from 2 80 mg oxys a day, down to only one or two percs/vics, then back up to more oxys, or a large amount of pods. I have never quit for more than a week. WIthdrawing from the pods was a huge reality check- it sucked. It is time to prioritize my life, and get back on track (or at least make a better atempt this time).

    I am trying to use Kratom for this. I will taper the best way I know how. It has actually been effective for keeping me four days clean, but then I ran out yesterday before my next order and couldnt stand the lethargy and anxiety ( I have a horrendously hard physical labor job- not withdrawal freindly), so I took some oxycodone.
    I know nothing of the pharmacology of Kratom, but it seems like it is missing something that other opiates have- and I mean that in a good way. After using the Kratom for four days, I started getting that "gitty" feeling back that I have longed for so long. It is almost like certain senses that I forgot I had were turned back on despite the Kratom. It almost felt like I was clean for months. I felt like testosterone was once again coursing through my veins, my sex drive was way up, my eyes became clearer, I was no longer pale looking, and I had great feelings of emotions that I hadn't had in a long time. I was content just blasting my music, exercising, and smoking ciggarettes. The only problem was that these feelings came and went throughout the course of the day.
    Then I ran out of Krat and took some Oxy. The oxy of course made me feel good, but afterwards, I felt like I was all the way back to square one. The next day I didn't have any of the "giddy" feeling like I had the first four days, I was once again pale, and I was extremely lethargic and anxious. I was extremely dissapointed and I can't wait till I get my Kratom Fed-Exed tommorow.

    Anyhow, the point being is that I have to ask if anyone else has had similiar feeling while quitting the opiates with Kratom? I have tried to taper with other weaker opiates in the past, but just felt like I was miserable the whole time then ended up relapsing. WIth the Kratom it seems like there is something different. I feel like I am a month clean after just a few days (yeah I know there will also be problems when it comes time to quit the Krat- but I can deal with that). I feel much more balanced, I have amplified emotions (the good kind), and I almost feel like a kid again. Maybe it is something to do with the Kratom's interaction with seretonin levels?
    Anyhow I feel it is possible to utilize this wonderful plant for curbing the depression and lethargy that goes along with opiate withdrawal. I haven't been successful yet in quitting, but I wont stop trying.

    [edit- Pega] I'd like to hear more about other people's experiences with using kratom to come off opiates. I have had such a positive time, as have others, and I'd just like to hear more from people who have tried it about their experiences, to hopefully gain some insight on how common kratom usage for this purpose is and how common "glowing" responses are... Also good would be really any comments or tips for people using or thinking of using kratom to come off of opiates.
    Last edited by Pegasus; 02-12-2010 at 17:38. Reason: Added "Kratom thread" info
     

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    #2
    The Pegasus Guide to Using Kratom to Quit Buprenorphine

    I have used kratom for various lengths after jumping off bupe... I have done this jump several times!

    I recommend tapering down to 0.5mg sublingually/ 0.2mg snorted, etc. at least, before switching over to kratom. The reason is that even this small dose of bupe equals a relatively large dose of other, full agonist opioids, for example, heroin, oxycodone, or kratom.

    Once you're down to this dose and take your final dose of bupe, I find the withdrawal to last 2-3 weeks, so this is about how long I'd plan on doing kratom for. You can use it a bit longer if you are still having cravings for an energy boost or whatever, since after 2-3 weeks you will be no longer dependent on bupe, and have little to no dependence on kratom. You can kind of use as needed after about 2 weeks or so, IMO. Be careful of using too frequently after the crucial period has passed, as kratom addiction will occur if you abuse it.

    Initially, you'll want to wait to feel withdrawal and probably start with two to three daily doses of around 7 grams. Aim for two, do three in a day if it feels necessary. Doing this for ~7-10 days should for the most part get you through the peak period of the withdrawal. As you start to feel that the bupe withdrawal is waning around this time, start cutting back your dose, by frequency and by amount per dose.

    Eventually, you can move down to one and zero doses per day, and the pace for this is really dependent on how you feel. I'd try to hop down as quickly as possible to prevent any strong dependence to kratom. In my experiences and many experiences collected from others, addiction to kratom is relatively slow-building and you should be able to get through this withdrawal period without any significant dependence occurring. It certainly can occur though; be wary of this. Use kratom as needed and you should avoid addiction; abuse it and you will likely encounter dependence.

    One of the biggest benefits to doing a kratom regimen is that it will give you energy through the withdrawal. This is beneficial not only to you feeling well during the withdrawal period, but also after the withdrawal period as you never experience the full, debilitating effect of withdrawal on motivation. People who experience this horrible drain of energy and motivation often find it hard to "start back up" to demanding tasks, as the drain lingers. By taking the kratom, your "drained" feeling will never fully develop and so getting back energy is not as big of a concern as there was never a huge loss of it to begin with.

    Alright, I think I have covered all the main points that needed to be addressed. I'm sure there are questions, so feel free to ask!

    Last edited by Pegasus; 10-08-2011 at 07:12.
     

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    #3
    Like many legal/herbal drugs around, there is an abundance of bullshit products out there. Poor quality and hype dominate a lot of the kratom market but as peg pointed out, if people have quality products they can really go a long way in helping people get off their opioid DOC with less pain.
     

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    #4
    Bluelighter
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    I used Kratom and it was very effective in mitigating WD symptoms from 1mg buprenorphine/day, and chronic nerve and muscle pain.

    I agree that Kratom has a certain "light" to it, that opiates can not compete with. We can't expect to feel the giddyness every day on the 'Tome, but believing in yourself and the power of herbal medicines will go a long way in bringing you through those up-and-downs of the WD ride.

    I'm going to reply to this with a real story tmrw, just wanted to chime in now because I love hearing other people going this route...

    Right on bro!

    Happy evening, dudes and dudettes of OD
    Last edited by Cane2theLeft; 02-12-2010 at 07:55.
     

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    #5
    Bluelighter SkagKush's Avatar
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    i have used high quality extracts for dope withdrawal, and they can be amazing......this is again if the dosage and the quality is right.....

    i have heard the full spectrum kratom tinctures are also very good, perhaps some of the best effects due to such a full list of alkaloids......im not sure tho, i have not used personally yet.....do intend to....

    kratom dose infact have a synergy with bupe? right guys or am i wrong on the syn? because i do know that is still gets you 'high' while on bupe.....ex......kratom is like tram and bupe......
     

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    #6
    ^I believe kratom has NRI properties so its active beyond just mu agonism so I wouldn't be surprised if it still had effects with bupe.

    When you say you used extracts, were they just mitragynine? I've used 15x mitragynine extracts before other types and I thought it was ok but when when I tried just high quality ground kratom, I thought it was A LOT better. Quality full spectrum extracts are relatively recent to the market, but in the past I always heard kratom devotees say that the extracts just couldn't compete with the natural product, anyone with thoughts on this?
     

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    #7
    I've used Kratom for bupe w/d's as well. Worked very well actually though I only used the Bupe for a little over a week and no more than 8mg a day. In my experience Bupe completely blocks Kratom as well though.
     

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    #8
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    Kratom certainly has other things going on besides mu-agonism...I've used it with great success when I can't even get tramadol (ironically enough, I like it better than tram now). The extracts work very nicely when coming down off a hydrocodone binge, and I've noticed its a little nicer when it comes to letting you be able to take a shit, unlike the full-agonists I use.

    I also use it as more of a social drug (usually combined with cannabis or small amounts of ethanol) and it works much better than the classical opiates for this purpose...it also works very nicely with sex, although I find that to be the case with all opiates.

    It certainly has its place, all this talk about it makes me want to place another order!
     

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    #9
    Kratom and sex is really an interesting topic...

    I have read a lot about kratom, and some people apparently use kratom as a sex-enhancer, with the main intent of delaying orgasm (in males, presumably). After awhile, these people often report that they are unable to get the same effects and can only have sex with kratom and alcohol. This strikes me as really strange; any comments on this would be appreciated...




    ...I know that for me, kratom does have a positive impact on sex to a degree. It seems to change the orgasm a bit, probably extending it a bit but not really sacrificing the intensity. On the flip side though, if I take kratom daily, but then don't take it before having sex one day, I will be quite a bit more sensitive for that experience. ...So that's two ways right there that is is beneficial for me. I am concerned about long term effects on the sex drive if I were to take kratom daily over long periods (as the point about people needing alcohol to be able to have sex above hints might be an issue).
     

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    #10
    I nominate peg to write a thorough and comprehensive FAQ about EVERYTHING related to kratom!

    On a serious note, excellent idea here.
     

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    #11
    ^Thanks! Heh, the merge didn't go quite as smoothly as I had hoped... Oh well, it looks alright like this, I guess...
     

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    #12
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    I haven't noticed any negative sexual effects from Kratom use, but...I don't use it only for that purpose...I mainly use it to help me through work, combined with cannabis as a nice party cocktail or as an opiate...which I use pretty much all the time, opiates that is.

    I've found that opiates and sex is an amazing combination, I might be going against the norms here but alcohol helps only to a certain point, after a while it stops helping (although this can be said about all things + alcohol).

    What interests me more is how very little pharm information exists about Kratom, I would have thought the pharm companies would jump at the chance of an antidepressant opiate (read: Tramadol)

    And I agree with Cane2theLeft, an updated Kratom thread is certainly needed. There is very little information on it besides the wiki page, the little bit of info erowid has...I did my original research on kratom on this board and I'm very happy for it.
    Last edited by Cane2theLeft; 02-12-2010 at 18:54. Reason: merge 2 posts
     

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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by NeighborhoodThreat View Post
    What interests me more is how very little pharm information exists about Kratom, I would have thought the pharm companies would jump at the chance of an antidepressant opiate (read: Tramadol)
    I'm guessing that there hasn't been sufficient research into mitragyna speciosa but perhaps there are other reasons.

    You don't see many pharmaceuticals (especially new ones) that are a combination of several alkaloids and perhaps the effects we so enjoy and derive benefits from are due to the synergy of many natural constituents and individual alkaloids/semi-synthetic derivatives have proven less-than-worthy of the massive funds required to get a preparation to market. I'm just theorizing here, I could be completely off-base.
     

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    #14
    Bluelighter Seattle_Stranger's Avatar
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    Kratom is my new found love, and I simply have way too many questions about it. I don't have a very high opiate tolerance, however I know I have it to some degree. Never have been addicted and never had a daily habit of anything.

    Currently, it takes about 15-20g of powdered leaf to give me any good effects, and even at that dosage effects are minimal. Not all too long ago, less than 2 months, I drank less than 20g of it and nearly floored myself. Same reputable supplier and the product is seemingly consistent.

    Having said that I have a few questions about kratom that searching and searching and searching provided nothing on:

    The time I said I was floored, I added the powdered leaf to orange juice, and slowly sipped the sludge until it was all gone. A few times after that, I decided I was done dealing with the seemingly-endless cup of liquid fecal matter, and started the plug-n-chug method; Mix in kratom with orange juice, plug nose, down it, pray it doesn't come back up. Do you think there's a chance that from allowing the kratom to linger in the OJ for so long while sipping it, as opposed to the short amount of time it sits there before I chug it, more alkaloid was pulled from the leaf which lead to a more intense experience? Would it be worth it to let my kratom sit/boil in lemon juice or something acidic for a while before I drink it?

    Does steeping in alcohol help pull out more alkaloid or does the alcohol simply aid in absorption of the alkaloid into your system?

    How do antacids interact with kratom? I read how they can prolong the effects of some drugs due to the slowing of the breakdown process. Does that apply with kratom?

    Is it safe to assume things that potentiate traditional opiates like GFJ, cemitidine, DXM and promethazine will potentiate kratom?

    Has anyone ever tried powdered leaf rectally? While I cringe at the idea, I can't help but wonder seeing how well hydrocodone worked...

    Bali, Indo, Thai, red vein, green vein, premium commercial, blah blah blah blah what is the difference? There just does not seem to be a straight answer to this question anywhere. I get the regular premium commercial powdered leaf, the cheapest stuff you can buy. It works, but if there are different flavors for different effects, then I'm missing out!!



    Thanks in advance for any answers!
     

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    #15
    Bluelighter RedBaron's Avatar
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    ^I can't answer all of your questions, but I believe that bali and indo tend to be more sedating varieties, while thai (which I believe includes the red and green vein variety) is a more stimulating high. I go for indo b/c I love the simplicity of consuming low doses of UEI kratom (google it).

    You say that it takes a lot to get good effect, but the effects are still minimal. That's how kratom is, it's not a top notch opiate. Most people just use it for W/D's from opiates. I like it b/c it is so easy and legal to obtain, but I'd take most other opiates over kratom any day.

    Also on the subject of potentiation, many people believe that the standard potentiators work for it (GFJ, sub-threshold DXM, etc). I've tried them, but I can't say before b/c like you said, the effects are minimal, it's hard for me to gauge if there's an increase. I always feel like I hit a ceiling with it at some point in the come-up. I'm guessing promethazine would potentiate it since it has it's own effects.
     

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    #16
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    Im planning on ordering some kratom soon for my bupe withdrawal, down to .5mgs daily. I have been told that buying leaves is better than buying extract. You end up getting way more for your money, and it is simple to just pop the crushed leaves in gel caps. Correct? Extracts are expensive and i am very limited on cash right now so i hope i've been informed correctly.
     

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    #17
    ^in my (admittedly limited) experience, I find the above to be true. When I did this I was only able to get '0' sized pills which only hold about 300-400mg of kratom a piece so it took a lot but filling them and consuming them was still preferable over any other methods to me. I found 18 of these kratom pills (~6 grams) to be equal to about 30mg of hydrocodone with what I was using but keep in mind there is a lot of variance.
     

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    #18
    Bluelighter Seattle_Stranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedBaron View Post
    ^I can't answer all of your questions, but I believe that bali and indo tend to be more sedating varieties, while thai (which I believe includes the red and green vein variety) is a more stimulating high. I go for indo b/c I love the simplicity of consuming low doses of UEI kratom (google it).

    You say that it takes a lot to get good effect, but the effects are still minimal. That's how kratom is, it's not a top notch opiate. Most people just use it for W/D's from opiates. I like it b/c it is so easy and legal to obtain, but I'd take most other opiates over kratom any day.

    Also on the subject of potentiation, many people believe that the standard potentiators work for it (GFJ, sub-threshold DXM, etc). I've tried them, but I can't say before b/c like you said, the effects are minimal, it's hard for me to gauge if there's an increase. I always feel like I hit a ceiling with it at some point in the come-up. I'm guessing promethazine would potentiate it since it has it's own effects.
    Thanks for the answers!

    I understand kratom is not top notch, however IME I've had just as much fun on kratom as any other opiate. Also, what I base my kratom highs on is the one time I mentioned, where I was nearly floored by ~20g. I've never nodded like that on any other opiate. Yes, I know, it's weird. Granted, I'm not a hard core user, never had heroin, only have had IV hydromorphone in the hospital twice....however I'm not opiate naive either. I've had my fair share of pod tea, oxycodone, etc..

    Perhaps that was just a really potent batch? Perhaps tolerance built more rapidly than expected? Perhaps I'm not from this planet? Maybe kratom is one of those drugs that seems to do it for only a small portion of the population, and I got lucky?

    All I know is when I get a good kratom high going, I feel like I'm on a good dose of oxy, and a low dose of MDMA. There is stimulation and empathetic qualities to this that I never felt with traditional opiates. Kratom makes me want to chat my friend's ears off and do things to my gf her mother wouldn't approve of.
     

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    #19
    Bluelighter RedBaron's Avatar
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    Oh yeah I certainly have fun on kratom, but I'd rather rail an OC80 (R.I.P.) than down all that nasty powder. The legality aspect is great, though. Legal, not tested for, easily gotten, etc.
    Kratom has an interesting pharmacology. It's still not fully understood how all of the chemicals in it interact and affect the body (aside from mytragine), and it seems like experiences are more variable than, say, with pharms like hydro or oxy. Also I have some shitty product right now, so my kratom experiences have been substandard lately. (have a pkg coming tomorrow though from a nice grizzly that jumps around. Should be good.)
     

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    #20
    ^(@Seattle Stranger) There is variation between batches of kratom. On top of that, your tolerance and body chemistry are constantly changing. All of these factors probably aligned the night you had your best experience. It was probably a particularly good batch (I find some batches to be much, much better than others), and your tolerance was probably low, and your stomach was probably in prime condition to absorb the kratom. The way you administered the kratom could easily have altered the effects as well.

    One way that I find to get the most out of kratom is to take it early in the morning on a day when I can sleep in a bit. I will take the kratom when I first open my eyes in the morning, then crawl back into bed and lay around while the kratom kicks in. I may fall half asleep or I may not, but just by laying there with my eyes closed while the kratom is kicking in, I can guarantee that it will feel like a nod and I will have a euphoric morning. It's like other sensations like sex when you're half-asleep in the morning-- Incredible.
     

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    #21
    I am not sure of the mechanics behind this, but I find the full spectrum and "enhanced" products to be superior to the regular 5,10,15, and 20X extracts. I find the enhanced bali to be my personal favorite for both price ratio and potency. I am still very new to this though, and open to new ideas and products.
    To me, this newly found natural product gives a sense of enlightenment. I now know that I have something available for help with my regular addictions and it makes the choice to switch that much easier- though it still takes a lot of work to keep the willpower.

    I think the best thing with Krat is to dive into it with a clear sense of what it actually offers while using it as a substitute. If you think that Kratom will fill the "opiate void" completely and still be able to make you high, then you are mistaken. But, if you learn to appreciate and notice the subtle effects of the Kratom and dose right then you are on the right track. The switch will not be painless by any means- but it is much more feasible than using absolutely nothing.

    I find that my sex drive remains constant with Krat, if anything it might even go up a little because of the stimulant effects. This is strange to me, since any other opiate completely kills my sex drive (I know with some it is the opposite). This is just another of the many unique traits that Kratom seems to have over other opiates. I think that things like this is what gives Krat its quality- it won't make you nod like Oxy, hydro, H, etc. but it will provide a unique experience all to its own.
     

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    #22
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    There certainly is lots of variation, after all, we're dealing with various chemicals from within various samples of plant matter (as has been said before) although I feel all the different alkaloids work better with each other. I'm yet to try an isolate of one or the other.

    I did, however, mainly because of this tread :P try a combination of 10mg hydrocodone (in the form of those lovely Norco 10/325s) and some 80x kratom extract from the vendor I've always purchased it from....a very nice combination, the antidepressant and almost stimulant effects of the kratom balanced nicely with hydro, and the opiate effects of it worked well with, well, the opiate effects of the hydro.

    I did notice a lot more nausea than with either kratom or hydrocodone alone, and I've never experienced the opiate nausea people so often speak of....it would be interesting to compare the extract of kratom to the various isolates of its alkaloids and how they mix (or don't mix) with other opiates.

    I know a lot of people have good experience (and I'm one of them) using kratom to stop opiate WD dead in its tracks...but...how about using it in combination with your favorite opiate?
     

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    #23
    *just a quick note*

    The guidelines forbidding vendor and source discussion apply to ANY drugs legal or illegal. When in doubt, think of it this way- there is no reason to even mention the terms 'vendor' or 'sources'. These can be used without violating guidelines such as "quality will vary by vendor" but statements like these add nothing to the conversation and just encourage PM sourcing which is also not allowed.

    If there are any questions, please review the guidelines and feel free to PM any of us staff if there are any questions.
     

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    #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cane2theLeft View Post
    ^in my (admittedly limited) experience, I find the above to be true. When I did this I was only able to get '0' sized pills which only hold about 300-400mg of kratom a piece so it took a lot but filling them and consuming them was still preferable over any other methods to me. I found 18 of these kratom pills (~6 grams) to be equal to about 30mg of hydrocodone with what I was using but keep in mind there is a lot of variance.
    Thanks for the info, glad i was right. Extracts are way to expensive for me to bother with right now.

    Do you, or does anybody else know if 00 pills are twice the size of 0, or if the difference isn't as big? I don't have a scale and don't have the extra money currently.
     

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    #25
    ^0 is 1/2 as big as 00 and 0 is 1/3 as big as 000.

    With the kratom I used it worked out very conveniently... 0 holds almost exactly 1/3 of a gram and 000 hold almost exactly a gram.
     

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