Does anyone know of any articles or studies on long-term use? Since it's pretty much an unknown substance in the US the studies are probably written in Russian or some other language. If anyone knows of any I'd appreciate it if you could let me know.
The information came to me by word of mouth that discontinuation after prolonged use can be pretty bad, physical discomfort, mood swings and apathy.
Also phenibut is bad for you stomach, and it is wise to make blood and hepatic check.
long term use can lead to physical dependence and withdrawl similar to benzos, alcohol, and other GABAergics.
even though phenibut affects GABA-b instead of GABA-a, it still leads to a similar withdrawl syndrome that can be deadly.
In addition to the dependence issues, long term use at high doses causes liver damage.
Any idea as to how high these doses have to be and what kind of long term? I have heard that you can take it for a while like every day for weeks and there is no problem if you discontinue for a while after that... but take it too long and start feeling dependence and you can feel like absolute shit for a week.
I discontinued my use about a week ago and had to taper very slightly (take half, then half that) and experienced some transient anxiety. Fortunately not a week though.
Definitely cycle your use.
Originally Posted by ferinox
I don't doubt this at all but would like to see some evidence. I quit benzos cold turkey recently and ive been taking phenibut for around 8 days at 1.5 gram a day. I took 2 grams earlier today and I can defo feel my liver heating up detoxing this Gagarin soviet space powder andi've had discomfort to a degree since the 2nd day of use.
My body is weak however and I cant blame this fake gabmonaut DRUG but im thinking this stuff could be like heavy barbs - so avoid alcohol imo...
It's reported on a ton of Russian sites selling it. Russia actually uses it as a medication so they have more studies on it over there.
You can find similar warnings on many sites. That sites claims 7-14 g daily is a high dose.
Don't have time for a proper reply, but while data regarding phenibut is scarce, there is extensive literature regarding baclofen, and while not identical......much of their actions appears to overlap. Much of what you read about baclofen, you can apply to phenibut.
Baclofen is a far, far more selective GABAb agonist than is phenibut.
Phenibut is also far longer lasting, I have taken both (indeed am scripted baclofen, as a muscle relaxant...its pretty shitty actually) both are slow to take effect after an oral dose, hours in the case of baclofen, in my experience with phenibut I only found it kicked in the next DAY after administration per os.
Anecdotally I have read user reports stating that phenibut use for as little as a few doses over a week has been sufficient to cause withdrawal.
Withdrawal from GABAb agonists is every bit as unpleasant as that from GABAa agonist drugs, as those who have fucked up with GHB/GBL can testify, been there, done that, not at all nice.
Withdrawal from such drugs causes a massive adrenergic storm, in addition to severe anxiety (to put it mildly, calling it anxiety is like calling saying IV propofol makes one a bit sleepy) and seizures.
I believe you.
Originally Posted by Limpet_Chicken
After taking phenibut daily for about 2-3 weeks at some point in the past, upon stopping I got an undeniable withdrawal syndrome that felt somewhere between hydrocodone and GBL withdrawals.
Hydrocodone withdrawal? Can you elaborate on this? I have been in withdrawal from many different compounds, but have never have been able to draw a parallel between opiate withdrawal and depressant withdrawal (aside from nitrous oxide, which is opioidergic). Opioid Withdrawal has a very distinct feel, taste and set of symptoms that i find very unique.
Personally after taking phenibut for a month or so daily, and I did not notice signficant withdrawal. Then again i was rcently taking carisoprodol for almost 3 months at an average of 2800mg in one single evening dose (some days as high as 4,200mg; 12 350mg tabs) and only had very minor withdrawal. Yes there was a little withdrawal, insomnia etc, but no anxiety or any major physiological discomfort. I literally stopped the carisoprodol cold turkey, and was expecting to enter significant withdrawal. High doses of carisoprodol had profound hypnotic and anxiolytic effects, and i was bracing for a proportional withdrawal. I waited, but it never came. I waited a month or so, and took 3 350mg tablets (a low dose to me), and it put me to sleep.
Interestingly, I am highly sensitive to benzo withdrawal; if i take benzos for 3 weeks i experience significant withdrawal.
The closest insight I have is NaGHB withdrawal, which was intense, but compared to benzo withdrawal, much shorter in duration, and not nearly as upsetting.
Again i said to look at some baclofen studies simply because of their various similarities and large amount of data. I have taken both, and found baclofen far more "effective" and much less tricky, but subjectively i felt many similarities.
The bottom line; i would avoid taking this compound for extended perioids of time given the nasty nature of the withdrawal from gabaergic drugs. It doesn't take much data or scholarly study to come at this very fundamental conclusion. That said, i'd trade a phenibut or GHB dependency over a benzo-barb dependence. The long term toxicity of phenibut in particular is truly anyones guess, but I would personally avoid a" wait and see" approach.
I should note however, that while shorter in duration, withdrawal from drugs like GHB can cause acute panic attacks that are more intense than benzo panic attacks. However, benzo withdrawal is for me, a protracted hell consisting of constant low to high level anxiety, combined with a unique melancholia, delerium, suicidal idealation and whole range of long-lasting unpleasant physiological symptoms.
What other effects other than GABAb agonism does Phenibut have? I've heard vague stuff about phenibut "increasing dopamine" or "antagonizing phenethylamine," but nothing about actions at any other receptor sites or anything. Fill me in... I'm curious.
Originally Posted by Limpet_Chicken
Regardless, I love phenibut. I take it 2-3 times a week (almost always the weekend), doses from 1 - 3 grams usually, sometimes mixed with booze. It works exceptionally well for social anxiety on its own.... and the synergy it has with alcohol can be downright euphoric. I never find alcohol truly euphoric on its own. Relaxing, fun, pleasant... sure, but phenibut + alcohol is a whole new level. Plus the amount of alcohol one needs to consume is lowered considerably. The only down side is the 3 - 4 hour wait time for effects to kick in, and the long-lasting sedation. I can sleep for hours upon hours upon hours on a few grams of phenibut. There's no real hangover aside from drowsiness that takes a while to shake off in the morning. That being said, I often find the primary effects somewhat stimulating - the drowsiness is more of an after effect.
Okay, sorry - I know that had no relevance to the thread topic really. I'm just enthusiastic about phenibut, as its been fun, helpful and I've had no problems regulating my usage. I hope the stuff stays cheap and legal for a long time. If there are any actual studies out there about hepatoxicity I'd definitely be interested to see them.
Last edited by Mudeltakappa; 03-04-2011 at 08:53.
I've been taking phenibut dailys from doses ranging from 1 - 3 grammes for a good few months now.. i've used quite a few times before.. always daily use untill my supply runs out. I've been through withdrawals many of times.. symptoms are:
Insomnia (little to no sleep for 4 - 5 days)
Major increase in paranoid thoughts (im normally kinda paranoid but while withdrawaling i start obsessing about my girlfriends safety and get stupidly paranoid if she doesn't txt me back quick enough )
Serious lack of energy
Am i missing anything? Not really sure why im posting this here but i've typed it out now x)
It does feel pretty harsh on the kidneys / liver.. just a couple of drinks or even a couple cocodamols with it leads to me having problems urinating (lacking pressure / starts + stops / sometimes can't piss).. which i believe are all signs of buggered kidneys?
I don't have any data regarding the pharmacology of phenibut-- but I would expect it to have a very similar receptor binding profile to GABA. The only difference between the two molecules is the phenyl group on the beta carbon in phenibut, which AFAIK is only present to increase lipophilicity and allow the compound to cross the blood-brain barrier.
Originally Posted by Mudeltakappa
However, since you mentioned phenethylamine in your post-- its interesting to note that phenibut actually is a phenethylamine. The molecule can be conceptualized as a phenethylamine with a -CH2COOH substituent on the beta carbon. I don't know enough about neuroscience to speculate as to how that might effect the compound's pharmacological profile, but its an interesting thing to note.
I've been using this guy 1-3 times a week the last six or so months. Haven't had any problems and almost no tolerance build up.
Here's a good study I found on the pharmacology: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1....tb00211.x/pdf
It's primarily a GABA-b agonist but has some GABA-a activity. It stimulates dopamine and antagonizes PEA.
The acute toxicity is low but not much else on toxicity is known.
Plasma halflife of 5.3 hours and 65% is recovered unchanged in urine.
I assume the rest (35% ) is metabolized analogous to GABA itself? Meaning you'd get β-phenyl succinic semialdehyde? No idea why that would be imporant but I found myself interested. The answer is probably not known anyway, but it seems like a fair assumption.
I'd be surprised if it isn't known actually.
Additionally, I'm not sure how it "stimulants dopamine and antagonizes pea" drivel
I'm using SNS Phenibut XT capsules. Most of the time I stick to .5 g but sometimes go up to 1.5g if it's a good occasion.
Dosing 7g is way too excessive. I don't think anyone should take any more than 2 g.
Phenibut is got to be the worst GABA drug ever created. I mean you start off dosing 1 g within a few days ya dose has tripled as tolerance develops rapidly for a pretty weak effect.
Originally Posted by Gryzer
I have used, abused and been addicted to most GABAs: benzos, barbs, baclfen, soma's and phenibut is the worst for what benefits it provides. Get some benzos or baclfen off your doctor you will get more out of them than phenibut with less side effects and tolerance. For every use of phenibut there is a much safer and safer prescription drug.
Its really not hard to get muscle relaxants like baclfen and repreve from your doctor. While benzos are a bit harder to acquire i certainly recommend
I definitely recon phenibut stresses the liver. As for having test done a few weeks after stopping phenibut, well the hardy liver repairs it self pretty well. the best test would be one done before starting phenibut then the morning after.
phenibut is a good mixer and potentator for short term use only. Should only be used when every other GABA cant be sourced.
After 25 posts no one can produce a scientific study showing evidence of kidney or liver damage? I'm not saying it doesn't, but everyone telling everyone else it does, does not make it true.
For anyone with access to medical journals, can you please search for ANY studies on Phenibut
And 7g/day is ridiculous......
Search online and on pubmed, and If you have an article that particularly interests you, I can go check it at the local university library.
Yes I agree with that as someone said that just peoples telling or trusting their "feelings" of liver burning or urination problems or something like that as signs of toxicity to these organs doesn't tell nothing.
As far as I know liver doesn't has any pain receptors so you can't feel liver pains even if there is something going on.
Anway phenibut has been on use since 1960's and I think it would be a little miracle if it has liver or kidney toxicity and it hasn't been noticed in any studies or at clinical use. They have been given massive amounts of phenibut to rats and rabbits but no toxicity has been observed and LD50 is also high at 900mg/kg to mice so to eg. Me that would be a dose of about 90g.
I have been using phenibut for about year know and about last six months daily at 5g/day and every now and then 10g.
At that time my subjective feel of my health has gotten better. I have had very good appetite, have been gaining better records at my sport training, skin looks healthier to me etc. Would that be situation with liver toxic like alcohol after six months of daily use?
If it is going to hurt your liver you will loose your appetite, come yellow, extremely fatigued etc. But phenibut does all the oposite. And also it has been observed in some studies that phenibut lowers kidney artery (or some other kidney blood vessels) blood pressure and thus protects kidneys against high blood pressure wich is maybe the biggest damaging factor to kidneys longterm. Also phenibuts protects heart at part by acting as an antiarrythmic. Also might lower blood pressure wich also protects every single organ in your body especially kidneys and heart.
Oh and btw, I had blood tests few months ago when I had allready used pheni many months but nothing wrong with liver values. Tests was taken for another purpose though.
So I really kind of hate that when people are telling something is toxic for that and that and rumors spreads like plague withot any real evidence.
And don't mean to insult anyone so apologies if someone feels that way. Just my thoughts.