Opioids Important info for oxycontin or any pill that gells when water is added

[justtesting]

I could not reply privately to PHD in PRT, so here is a copy of my reply:

After reading his reply I did some research and anything I could find that Polyethylene Oxide is soluble in that is not only toxic but they it would also dissolve the main ingredient also soluble in the solvent.

According to the author of the 13 step procedure (he doesn't want his handle known, so I'll call him 7of9 if I need to refer to him again in this message), it worked to dissolve PEO in isopropanol, which did not dissolve the API. He chose this based on what he read in cleaning materials for polyox work areas

Purdue intended it to be difficult to separate the API from the PEO, and seems to have done what they intended.

I do not know if that is only because they are able to encase individual micro-particles of the API in cured polyox (brand name of PEO) resin, or if the polyox chains are so large that they are able to wrap around the API micro-particles.

I do know that the molecular weight of the PolyOX that they have chosen is in the millions, so that may be possible. PolyOx literature talks about the capability of forming "association compounds" with various drugs. Do you know if such wrapping is what they mean by "association compound"? I couldn't find anything useful via web search.

Gelling seems to be what results in drug release, so maybe that lets the resin become flexible enough to allow molecules of oxycodone to escape, after which diffusion through the gel is like wading in mollasses.

The general idea of the method I proposed after reading 7of9's method is this:

• (optional) Use fatty solvent, such as orange oil to remove the fat-soluble anti-oxidant BHT. May not be necessary when using more than just oxidation (for example, UV light) to degrade the PolyOx.

1. degrade the PolyOx to reduce its ability to bind the API. Use strong UV light and oxidation (via aeration of next step's solvent) to degrade PolyOx. This probably can only be done concurrently with the next step.
   
   
2. dissolve degraded Polyox so as to discard it, agitating to liberate the API (and possibly for shear forces to speed up degradation)
   
   
3. remove dissolved (and ungelled) PolyOx and solvent by wick filtration, leaving solids.
   
   Don't discard the solvent containing PolyOx just yet. There still may be bound API, so you may want to repeat the previous steps to try to release it. Once released from the PolyOx, it should sediment out, apparently like magic. There will be diminishing returns with each repetition
   
   Perhaps 7of9 or someone else could comment on any problems they might see with the above?
   
4. Use traditional method, such as original OC method, and modified as needed, to separate water soluble solids from the others, to produce a water soluble powder. The only difference is that you will start with powder from preceding steps, rather than powder from grinding pills.

Forgive my ignorance (or missing brain cells), but what is a PHD in PRT? (i.e. what does PRT stand for in this context?)


-- justtesting

 

[PHD_in_PRT]

Forgive my ignorance (or missing brain cells), but what is a PHD in PRT? (i.e. what does PRT stand for in this context?)


-- justtesting

It means I got the PHD in PaRTy. Thanks to Michigan State University.lol

After seeing what could happen if you try to extract oxycodone with the new Oxycontins, I would not try or recommend doing it unless you are 100% certain that there is no gel at all.

You basically verified my guess, when I stated that I thought the pharmaceuticals companies were getting better at creating a foolproof form of the tablet.

I did have another idea and this is based on my experience with any of the medications that are a two piece capsule for easy opening and the tiny polymers that hold the drug and release it later(Palladone, Avinza, etc). Someone that just wants to make the medicine immediate release could try this with no risks of side effect unless you take to much.

With the medications mentioned above, I would at first crush the tiny capsules and they would release immediately, but of course there was the other ingredients in the pellets that you would have to filter out. Later I thought of an idea and I figured out that if you just let them sit in the water for the time period that drug should last(12-24hrs), the polymer would release the medicine in the water just as it does when it goes through your system, no crushing of the tiny pellets required and the end product was very clear and pure since you weren't crushing them up. I would leave the pellets in a vial of of water for 24hrs and then just basically pour out the water which now had all of the medicine dissolved in it. This is one of the reasons Palladone had to be removed from the market. They claimed that there were cases that the main ingredient would release all at once if you were to drink alcohol with the pills. I also think it was removed because it was very east to defeat the release system.

The alcohol thing is actually how I came up with my method I started the thread about. First, I thought if you mixed alcohol with the pellets, they would release the medicine immediately. Then I did some research and found out about the hypomellose. After searching around for its chemical properties, I learned that hypomellose was not soluble in alcohol, but the oxycodone was. This then made it easy to figure out how to get the oxycodone out with the method I posted.

Back to the new Oxy's OP. I think you could crushed the pill then let it sit in the water for 12 hrs or more and the polymer matrix will release the medicine from its matrix. For someone that wants it to be immediate release then this method is no more risky then when you could just crush the older Oxy's up. The biggest problem I can see with this method is patience, which most of us don't have once we have the thing in our hands. I have seen how people have attempted to make it release instantly by crushing it up and then putting it water, cola or other things. I think the only thing they may have missed is the waiting part, to let the ingredient leach out of the polymer. If someone with the new Oxy's wants to try this just crush up a pill and let it sit in the water for 24hrs, then drink the whole thing and see if still acts the same or if indeed all of the medicine was released.

Now to go further then that, I would think you would still have have the hypomellose gel problem to deal with and the polyethylene oxide. This is why I think they made two anti-abuse methods instead of just one to make it much harder to defeat. Having both prevents people from snorting or injecting them. I am sure there is some method of doing it, it would just take someone extremely knowledgeable to do it without the risks a normal person might make. Even then I am sure once they found out that it could be defeated again, they would just add 1 or more ingredients to overcome it agaijn.

As I mentioned in this or another thread, I think it is rather harsh to put an ingredient in a medication that will make someone die if they try to abuse it any way. I mean it is one thing to punish someone for doing something illegal, it is far more extreme to have the punishment be death, just for trying to abuse a drug.

 

[justtesting]

I think it's a mistake to be worried about hypromellose.

The old OxyContin, which contained hypromellose, never exhibited gelling properties. Most pills that contain it do not have a gelling property.

It's pretty much a given that if you make a tablet that has a coating, it contains hypromellose. It's use in the old OxyContin was most likely limited to the tablet coating.

If you want to make a pill gel using hypromellose, you need a LOT of it. There just isn't the room in the new tablets. Except for the API just about all of the bulk is PolyOx, after all.

(Someone posted that they had weighed 80mg tablets and found that the tablet was 256 mg (nice power of 2 there!), and when he removed the coating, 240mg was left. Subtracting 80mg for the API, the remaining excipients weight was only 160mg. A further breakdown would be interesting and educational)

With the new formula, once you've dealt with the PolyOx, I doubt hypromellose will be of any concern.

 

[justtesting]

It means I got the PHD in PaRTy. Thanks to Michigan State University.lol
...
As I mentioned in this or another thread, I think it is rather harsh to put an ingredient in a medication that will make someone die if they try to abuse it any way. I mean it is one thing to punish someone for doing something illegal, it is far more extreme to have the punishment be death, just for trying to abuse a drug.

Huh? Which ingredient are you talking about? The only ingredient I know of that could make you die if you abuse it is oxycodone itself, and presumably you know what your tolerance is. If you don't, well I think the rest goes without saying.

[FLAME ON]
I think a much more dangerous drug is acetaminophen. There is very little leeway between the labeled maximum daily dose and the minimum toxic dose in a healthy average weight individual who does not place much load on their liver. In other individuals, an amount less than the labeled maximum dose can cause coma followed by a slow death from organ shutdown over a period of about 3 days (if you recover from the coma, however, you'll probably survive). In some, the coma is preceded by alzheimers-like dementia. There are a lot more deaths from Tylenol than from Oxycontin. But Tylenol isn't an addictive agent that can produce euphoria in new or occasional users, so nobody cares.
[FLAME OFF - if you want to respond to this flame, please start a tylenol thread to do so]

 

[PHD_in_PRT]

Huh? Which ingredient are you talking about? The only ingredient I know of that could make you die if you abuse it is oxycodone itself, and presumably you know what your tolerance is. If you don't, well I think the rest goes without saying.

[FLAME ON]
I think a much more dangerous drug is acetaminophen. There is very little leeway between the labeled maximum daily dose and the minimum toxic dose in a healthy average weight individual who does not place much load on their liver. In other individuals, an amount less than the labeled maximum dose can cause coma followed by a slow death from organ shutdown over a period of about 3 days (if you recover from the coma, however, you'll probably survive). In some, the coma is preceded by alzheimers-like dementia. There are a lot more deaths from Tylenol than from Oxycontin. But Tylenol isn't an addictive agent that can produce euphoria in new or occasional users, so nobody cares.
[FLAME OFF - if you want to respond to this flame, please start a tylenol thread to do so]

weren't you the one that told us about the new anti abuse ingredients in the new Oxy's and other opiates that can kill you. There are posts here where people have died trying to IV the new Oxy's and not the same day but days later because the polymers in the tablet to make it abuse proof clogged his veins and made him have a stroke.

And where did I mention Tylenol in this thread? By the way you can IV 1000mg of tylenol since they now make it in IV form http://www.ofirmev.com/

and presumably you know what your tolerance is. If you don't, well I think the rest goes without saying.

well if you think I'm an idiot because I didn't know Oxycodone could be the only ingredient to kill you then I know you are for not knowing why the new Oxy's will kill you. Keep shooting those new pills so we can read the story of your death!

 

[terilyn54]

Will shaving the oxycontin op remove the gel effect?

I shaved an 80 mg with one of those foot callous removers. Will doing that alone remove the get effect so when I just swallow it will it allow the oxy to dissolve normally in my stomach or will it continue to be time release.

 

[justtesting]

[FONT="Fra[SIZE="1"][/SIZE]nklin Gothic Medium"][/FONT]I shaved an 80 mg with one of those foot callous removers. Will doing that alone remove the get effect so when I just swallow it will it allow the oxy to dissolve normally in my stomach or will it continue to be time release.

No. The delayed release occurs at a molecular level. Even completely dissolved, giant polyethylene oxide (PEO) molecules are effectively encapsulating smaller oxycodone particles. The particles first have to be released from their bondage, after which they must wade (diffuse) through a sea (the gel) of PEO molecules, some degraded, some not.

There are some free oxycodone particles to begin with, as a consequence of the manufacturing process, so fully dissolving a tablet in a liquid and then drinking that liquid might have a small advantage, but the pills are designed to fully dissolve in the stomach and fully mix with other digestive tract contents before the time delay clock starts ticking (metaphorically speaking, of course)

The key to breaking them is to degrade the PEO to release the oxycodone.

I've been thinking that an alternative method to the one suggested that uses UV, oxidation etc to degrade the PEO might be something as simple as using a variant of Rurik's method to degrade the PEO, then dissolving the results.

It might go like this:

1. Preheat pizza tray to 200°F in oven.
2. Sprinkle a thin even layer of powdered tablet powder on squares of Reynold's Non-Stick™ foil
3. Place foil on pizza tray and heat until it turns a certain shade. The purpose of this is to degrade the PEO by slow controlled oxidation.
4. Remove foil from oven and cut into strips
5. Place water in jello cup
6. Place strips in water, one at a time, to dissolve colored crust. Rub them if needed.
7. MAYBE Try some experimental ideas to further the PEO degradation. One thought I had on this was to place some miniature electroplating electrodes, and run an isolated and current-limited high voltage alternating current through the solution (direct current could mess up the electrodes after a while, and we're just doing this for the temporary ionization)
8. Degrading the PEO did not remove it; it just made it possible for the oxycodone to be dissolved in the water, so once that has happened, we want to separate it out. Mix in a substance to bind the PEO. A combination of talc and something like ammonio methacrylate copolymer might be perfect. Maybe it could be obtained from some OTC time release pill.
9. With the ideal substances binding the PEO, bring solution to a boil (You won't harm the oxycodone - you need more than twice boiling temperature to do so) until the mixture of PEO and solids float.
10. Let cool, so the floating material can harden, and then use a wick filter to draw off the liquid into another container.
11. Optionally, add some lactose to the liquid for bulk and evaporate.

Note that this is purely a flight of fancy and entirely untried. I just thought I'd throw it out there to see what people think.

 

[MissiMiss]

WHoaH! I am no chem major, just a normal girl trying to figure out this Endo (E710) 80 I just got...I am aware of a completely fool proof way to shoot or snort the new OP 80s. Done it a million times! But this is one that I havent seen yet. I have read that it will gel up in water...but I still feel fairly confident that there is some reasonably simple way to get past the anti-abuse gel...Can anyone help me, PLEASE?

 

[lorne667]

Why am I all the sudden VERY suspicous of, um, DR. PaRTy???

 

[diaz912]

Can you inject oxycodone 80 e 710's of so how?