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I honesty cannot conceive the validity of religion.

hoodrichgmoney

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Joined
Oct 30, 2010
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25
I just cannot fathom in any way how there is anything of a higher power or order.

It is actually distressing for me when people talk about religion because it is so fucking absurd.

I want to hear an argument that in some way validates religion.
 
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that's a very juvenile attitude. condescending much?

regarding religion: there is a definite value in ritualised practices, even as watered down as they may be. there is also a social aspect which is important too.

regarding higher power: this is a different subject, do not assess its validity via religion.
 
This is something you are supposed to do for yourself. Do you lack the capacity to figure out the value of religion without having someone spell it out for you? You certainly are audacious to expect a stranger to care enough about you and your intellectual development to waste their time teaching you things that you are supposed to do by yourself. So, I'll be brief. Now, observe this caveat: I am not a religious person. I do have respect for religion, when it is practiced properly, and is not proselytized.

One of religion's values lies in the fact that it soothes existential trauma. Religion offers one a way to accept one's impermanence, relieve one's bereavement and embrace one's mortality. Religions relieve impermanence by offering a community that is connected at what is supposed to be the most profound level to the believer, such that the culture one is immersed in extends well beyond one's bloodline, nation and accomplishments. This requires the believer to identify with the religion in such a way that she is the religion. When she is the religion, her identity remains while her most profound worries are answered by the religion. She appraises her faith as being above all in her life, and as a result, she becomes content. By being content, she will not be destroyed by bereavement. She is able to do this, because she places greater value in something that is (to her) permanent, rather than in the impermanent world, where everything changes and dies.

Another one of the benefits of religion, is that it teaches the true believer compassion, generosity, humility, and equality. All monotheistic religions (except for Catholicism (Pope), and Judaism ("Chosen People/Race")) claim that all men are equal before God. Therefore, there is no man that is greater than another, because we are all overwhelmed in the face of God. In these religions, this God is testing us, to see if we are still beasts, or if we can be ethical men. Therefore, living a life that most adheres to an ethical system that is centered around humility, compassion, generosity, and equality is the best life, in the eyes of most monotheistic religions. Religions have greatly influenced the development of civilization. When religion is used to excuse inhumane actions, it is being manipulated by powers that reside outside of the core of the religion. Religion's greatest impact is not found in the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Manifest Destiny, Zionism, or any other cause that is covered in blood, it is found in the U.S. Constitution, the Magna Carta, Indian Peace Movement, all Civil Rights Movements, and so on. Religions greatly influenced the ethics that are laid out in all of the said documents and movements. But, this does not mean that an Atheist cannot be ethical. It only means that religions have both negatively and positively effected the world. Indeed, there are quite a few causes rooted in Atheistic Communism, that have led to suffering. However, there are also many Atheistic movements that are ethical in nature.

I could go into much further detail, but I think I have gone further than I have to, for such a disrespectfully worded question.
 
Valid? If you have designated belief of individuals invalid it will follow the organizations founded on beliefs are invalid. Is the problem that for you that some particulars of a belief system may be wrong? How do you feel about Sherlock Holmes role players or people who play Dungeons & Dragons? Does everthing have to be true? Religions propose things about lees tangible portions of reality and make propositions about human nature and purpose. I find it valid that you reject these things and I'd even find it valid that you start an organization around your beliefs that cause you to find religion invalid.

Apostacious said:
All monotheistic religions (except for Catholicism (Pope), and Judaism ("Chosen People/Race")) claim that all men are equal before God.
I think you will find affirmations from Catholicism and Judaism that all humans have worth. These are ancient traditions so you will be able to find artifacts of thought and historical actions that don't recognize intrinsic human rights. Human rights is a modern concept. Other long term monotheistic movements have some blemishes on human rights matters as well. A right to dissent is modern and many monotheists of every flavor can lack a recognition of non-believers rights and a right to dissent.
 
Yes, that is true that as humans have evolved ethically, so has the utilization of religious ideas. I completely understand that religions have been used as a tool by ones in power to coerce their citizens into being complacent. However, the core idea of a monotheistic religion goes against such utilization, because it centralizes the power of the universe into one entity, and generally does not recognize any other power. Although, some monotheistic religions claim that the power is channeled through a specific type of person, or people, circumventing the argument that all people are powerless in the face of God.
 
This is gonna be entirely my own point of view and I do not claim it's validity nor do I force anyone to agree with me.

Religion in the meaning of faith, belief system, superstition and/or worship has little value compared to religion in the meaning of a spiritual teaching, which helps one become more aware of the perceivable reality. From this awareness arise all the positive actions, that are in this world.

I see very many people being ignorant to what is happening even to themselves - why they act the way they do and why they feel the emotions they do. Sometimes I call such people 'lost'. Some call them asleep, some call them insane. I still count myself among them. But there are different levels of it. It's not that one either is or is not, but how deeply one is.
For example criminals, murderers are most of the time very lost beings. They are trying to reach peace through wrong means, but they don't understand it themselves. So they keep trying the same way, but never get there. I would suggest this documentary for further explanation of this topic.
I took such an extreme example so you could see the correlation better, but actually most of the humanity is quite lost. I do not say this as a negative judgment, but just a fact.
For this I find the best remedy is a 'spiritual teaching'. It's pretty much a science of living, since everyone has to understand it and test it on themselves in order for it to 'work'. There's nothing 'unreal' to believe in, but just guideposts, which everyone can test for themselves.

There are many great teachings, which help us becoming more aware. I do not want to say aware of this or that, because that might only confuse you with some preconceived conceptions. I guess it would not be that wrong to say 'aware of everything'. And to me it seems, that people are becoming more and more aware/awake (it could be just a delusion, tho).

I also believe that the core teaching of all religions has always been pretty much the same, but it is often lost under a pile of misconceptions (rewrites of the teachings, misinterpretations from egotistical perception etc).
 
I just cannot fathom in any way how there is anything of a higher power or order.

It is actually distressing for me when people talk about religion because it is so fucking absurd.

I want to hear an argument that in some way validates religion.

Haha. Your intolerance is quite ironic.
 
If you're looking for an answer to the question, "why should I believe in anything you tell me?", then you're never going to be satisfied. I see that as a good thing, because it means you're thinking for yourself, which is a property I value in others :)

Right. With that out of the way, you want to know why you should ever entertain the idea of a higher power. Well, the short answer is that like the question above, you're probably not going to accept my answer. That's fine too, because I'm going to enjoy writing this regardless of who reads it.

So, what do I believe then?

I believe that there are things I don't understand. That's a loose definition for a reason; being that I really don't have a clue what goes on beyond the realm of the few things I do know. That's not to suggest that my understanding of this world is particularly limited: I have a degree, work as a computer programmer, and am an armchair chemist/physicist who happens to have let his NewScientist subscription lapse :). I have, however, had a few experiences that I have yet to completely fathom. At times I doubt I will ever truly understand them, but what I have found useful is a single idea: metaphor.

Religion is a La-Z-Boy

Once you read enough philosophy, the word "is" becomes gradually less meaningful. It's all good and well to say that that piece of plastic over there is a cup, but when you move on to bigger ideas it becomes less precise, for example: the brain is a computer; the Earth is a (macro)organism. Neither of these things is necessarily true in the literal sense, since human brains aren't manufactured at Intel's laboratories, nor has Earth ever managed to reproduce (to our knowledge, at least). "Is" becomes a sliding scale between a literal interpretation of "this object meets all the properties of a lounge chair" to "this object can be modeled as a lounge chair because it is comfortable when you are tired". What's the point of all this? Well, it means that you're free to observe the musings of religious people differently, and see what they're trying to describe rather than interpreting their metaphor literally.

Metaphor is a spanner

Religions love metaphor. I know a few from the hymns I remember from my Catholic upbringing: "The Lord is my shepherd", "Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet" and such. Obviously, we humans aren't actually sheep, and shouting isn't actually going to light up a dark street. The importance is in the metaphor, and specifically in the intent behind the metaphor. The intended meaning behind the shepherd metaphor isn't meant to be that humans are completely helpless and at the mercy of whatever may come, but that the God of the Christians plays the role of protector and comforter. Unfortunately, a lot of seemingly-clearheaded atheists that I know seem to interpret this particular one incorrectly, and twist its meaning into a verbal attack of sorts, which - as someone who once vehemently stood tall in the face of that particular religion and declared his lack of faith to be final and unwavering - I find somewhat disappointing.

God is a feeling

So after all that stalling: no, I don't believe in the Christian idea of God. I don't believe that there is any being who is entitled to judge others, by merit of their existential status. I do believe that, considered as an aggregate or multi-"cellular" macro-organism, human societies form composite "beings" which have their own ideas in the form of culture, societal norms, entertainment forms, musical styles and so on. "God" then becomes a placeholder term for any form of order bigger than the individual, which is the definition I have come to hold as my own.

The eyes have it

I also believe in the soul, insofar as other people seem to have some kind of life that I could not replicate through programming a computer. There was a time where I would glance into someone's eyes and see nothing, however after a few experiences on LSD, I have since revised that standpoint. If you look - really look - into the eyes of another human being, you can watch them think. There's a connection when you make eye contact, and it's two-way, and it conveys emotion. You can feel what they feel. This even works with other animals, although a lot of the time they seem intimidated by eye contact, as with most animals it is (culturally, perhaps?) considered a threatening gesture. Try sitting still with a pet (your own or a friend's), and simply treat it as you would any being you respect. You'll find after a while that they will treat you as such in return.

Well, that's everything I can think of at 11PM after a 10-hour day at work. I hope any of this helps you. If not, well, at least I had fun exercising some still-too-rarely-accessed areas of my own mind. :)

Peace in all things.
Raw
 
Listen, as some may know I am not one who believes in a God. However, I can conceive the validity of it. I believe there's always going to be a gray area of science where God can fall into place. Just the sheer vagueness of the figure allows this to happen. Big Bang? God. If we prove Branes, where did they begin? God. Of course this'll never be a satisfying answer and won't get us anywhere. Of course you can't argue alongside of organized religions. It's far easier for agnostics because they don't have any texts dictating things that are proven otherwise or more often than not silly stories. It's even easier than that saying none exist.
 
Religion is a way of the heart. When used properly it can cultivate a very empathic and compassionate consciousness directed toward all things. This creates bliss, who doesn't like bliss(as separate from ecstasy)?

I wish we could construct a path for the heart to develop just like religion attempts to do, but minus superstition. Only secular values will be propagated.
I do think this could happen, I hope it does.
 
i believe this has already been brought up in very intellectual terms but without religion or politics along with religion there would just be caous.
I also dont believe in the bible persay or any real religion.
But can you imagine a world that didnt have its faiths..
I cant...
 
I wish we could construct a path for the heart to develop just like religion attempts to do, but minus superstition.

It's already been done. Some call it Buddhism. :)
Yes, you can find some superstitions in some branches of Buddhism (this is bound to happen with any spiritual teaching), but none in the main teachings.
 
^^

Oh you don't have to imagine. Just subtract the word, "world" replace with the Nation, "China"; tahdah! You've now seen a micro-world without religion. They're mostly atheists, to be in office you MUST be atheist. There isn't any real ties to religion and morals. In fact, a lot of religions remain moral less in many aspects. If you are curious about this I can't do it justice. A specialist in this field is an author and speaker, Christopher Hitchens.


*Here's a short clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaGqVbAzjng
 
that's a very juvenile attitude. condescending much?

regarding religion: there is a definite value in ritualised practices, even as watered down as they may be. there is also a social aspect which is important too.

regarding higher power: this is a different subject, do not assess its validity via religion.

why are you trying to separate higher power and religion? You can not have a religion with out a high power/creater. That is the essence of a religion. So whether or not there is value in a religion doesn't make it the religion "valid", as the higher power is the key to religion, otherwise it would be a philosophy.

Also the intrinsic values of religions that may convey a positive message do not out weigh the damages done by the organized religions. Religions don't necessarily hold a negative connotation, but they have exhibited far to much corruption for them to be the ideal imo.

Moral codes can exist out side of religions and governments. Neither are needed.

I agree with the op that I can fathomed the idea of some sort of higher power, but in less harsh tone. I still am an agnostic, because I still accept there is no way of knowing. Even when I was a little kid (elementary school) the idea never made sense
 
Religion is complete and utter garbage. . A higher being I believe in. What is? Who is he? No one can say.

an EX Jehovah witness who has read the Bible plenty of times and practiced religious ritual.
 
the OP has taken the words out of my mouth .

for a period of years, during my early adulthood, i cast about the various non christian religions looking for some structure that held meaning . lsd made me think about things a little differently but held no ''spiritual'' component . so i remain a life long atheist and have no spirituality at all.

as with the OP i am confounded by people who have gods, dogma, rituals, sacraments, spirituality, etc. however i have relatives that are sharp as tacks and believe in their religion . so IQ has nothing to do with god/no god decisions .

it is an enigma and i am just as comfortable with it as i am not having a notion of a higher power .
 
Well to the op you have somewhat answered your own question.

Religion cannot be proved. There is no logical truth in Religion as a whole.

Where religion is based, its existence is founded upon the ethno-cultural group dynamic. I think the answer lies somewhere in anthropology where there is no distinction between culture, life, art, celebration and religion. Religion in this sense is a part of your being, it defines who you are. So how can something bound by culture be invalid? It would make ourselves invalid.
 
clearly, religion is a load of crap. the fact is, there is no god and anyone who believes in one is delusional.
 
^

Why do (scientific) people tend to be so arrogant?

Science is "only" a particular form of thought which emerged throughout western history. Don't you think it's arrogant to look down onto thousands of years of human existence (and religious experiences) just because the latest cover of Scientific American looks sexy and the Pope doesn't?

I see why scientific people defend that the idea of God doesn't fit within their own scientific world-view. I can, in some sense, also share there point of view that many people don't have the intellectual skills and are naively following religion. But to attack any concept or approach to the God-question (yes, this is a question) seems plane arrogant to me.
 
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