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I honesty cannot conceive the validity of religion.

clearly, religion is a load of crap. the fact is, there is no god and anyone who believes in one is delusional.

The DSM-IVTR takes into account religious fervor. Delusional behavior is quite separate from any sort of state incurred from religious belief.
 
and for that matter, speaking about delusion, physicists are schizophrenic mathematicians, imposing mathematical structures on nature which are not there. Men of science tend to forget many of their own presuppositions.

I'm not saying science has not been very succesful and benificial for our culture. I'm only claiming that saying "science is the only truth" and "everything else in human experience is useless" is absurd.
 
^

Why do (scientific) people tend to be so arrogant?

Science is "only" a particular form of thought which emerged throughout western history. Don't you think it's arrogant to look down onto thousands of years of human existence (and religious experiences) just because the latest cover of Scientific American looks sexy and the Pope doesn't?
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I think Richard Dawkins has a lot to do with that. He is at the root of a lot of 'militant atheists'. In his aggression he is trying to bring atheists out of "shame". I believe he uses this aggression as a political tool to have a lobby of atheists to help the cause of science against religious backlash which is more often than we care to consider. He's said on many occasions how the Jewish percentile is far less than atheists in America, yet the Jewish/Israel lobby is large and powerful.
 
there has to be something more than just what we see... not necessarily god but a 'higher power,' what ever you want it to be.
 
I just cannot fathom in any way how there is anything of a higher power or order.

It is actually distressing for me when people talk about religion because it is so fucking absurd.

I want to hear an argument that in some way validates religion.

why waste your time hating when you could be loving?
life isn't necessarily short, but being happy makes it worthwhile.
 
why are you trying to separate higher power and religion? You can not have a religion with out a high power/creater. That is the essence of a religion. So whether or not there is value in a religion doesn't make it the religion "valid", as the higher power is the key to religion, otherwise it would be a philosophy.

You took my words backwards, please re-read. I said that you can't assess the validity of a higher power by a religion, not the other way around.

Also the intrinsic values of religions that may convey a positive message do not out weigh the damages done by the organized religions. Religions don't necessarily hold a negative connotation, but they have exhibited far to much corruption for them to be the ideal imo.

Religion has indeed been exploited to many damaging ends, but this is more indicative of the human compulsion to exploit sensitive and influential methods for their own ends than has anything to do with the essence of any religion.

Moral codes can exist out side of religions and governments. Neither are needed.

Individuals are smart, groups of people are not. If religion or government do not influence groups of people, others will.

I agree with the op that I can fathomed the idea of some sort of higher power, but in less harsh tone. I still am an agnostic, because I still accept there is no way of knowing. Even when I was a little kid (elementary school) the idea never made sense

There really is no way of knowing, but that is how it should be. What would be the point of the struggle of life if we were aware of a certain saftey net?
 
why are you trying to separate higher power and religion? You can not have a religion with out a high power/creater. That is the essence of a religion. So whether or not there is value in a religion doesn't make it the religion "valid", as the higher power is the key to religion, otherwise it would be a philosophy.

Interesting. If I were to assert that souls (a "divine spark" in the individual) exist but God/gods do not, would you consider that a religion?
 
^That would qualify as a nontheistic religion. One could also say that is a form of mysticism as well.
 
You are an ant in an ant farm. Keep telling yourself that there is no higher intelligence in the universe as you scurry about your short pointless life.
 
I just cannot fathom in any way...
these are the important words in your post. you don't understand it. this has nothing to do with the absurdity - or otherwise - of religion. it has everything to do with your inability (or, more likely, unwillingness) to hear another viewpoint.
I want to hear an argument that in some way validates religion.
on this point, i echo apostacious. nobody here is required to convince you - especially if you are not willing to entertain the idea that there is an alternative you your viewpoint.

i've often made the point in here that you can't convince somebody rationally if they didn't arrive at their position rationally. likewise, you can't convince somebody with faith if they didn't personally arrive at their position by faith.

this subject has been covered extensively in the forum e.g. Evolution VS Bible, among others.

this question adds nothing new.

alasdair
 
science is the greates achievment of the human race. it is our system of working out how the universe works. anything that isnt science based is simply wrong since it will not be evidence based. religion = wrong, alternative medicine = wrong, astrology = wrong etc.
 
Although I wish that religion did not exist I've accepted that some people need to have religion for whatever reason. I really would not enjoy having someone preach to me so I resist openly mocking people for their "faith" even though I think about it daily. I have excepted science as the only reasonable religion, but I understand that it is impossible for most people to do. It may be arrogant. But I believe that it is the burden of the few who see though the facade of religion to advance the human race while the rest live out their lives without a care; because they know the big guy up stairs is watching over them.
 
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The higher power is the connection between everything in the universe. In my opinion it doesn't matter what you call it. God, the Tao, Zen, Allah.
it's really just a word to try and describe the inherent connection everything is apart of.
Try picking up a really long coffee table by yourself.
Then try picking it up with another person.
See how much easier it is?
That's one example of the higher power.
 
Lazyscience said:
anything that isnt science based is simply wrong since it will not be evidence based.
Do I have to have a scientific basis for painting my house blue? How bout writing a screen play? Could their be a non-evidence based reason for choosing to vacation in Vienna instead of Ibiza that wouldn't be wrong?
Lazyscience said:
religion = wrong, alternative medicine = wrong, astrology = wrong etc.
We have a moral imperative to avoid these things because what? If these things are untrue adherents of such things have offended who? or what? People get to choose, which entails sometimes they choose less true or less proven things. I suppose you could not invite them to your next dinner party or taunt them or something. It could turn out someday you believe in something less tangible or incorrect. I could stamp my feet and cry whenever I think some expresses beliefs that are contrary to my highest values. That would really show them.
 
^no no no, qualitative experience doesn't exist, i mean is wrong. so is love, people only get high from some chemical or other when they get together with certain others too. it's all wrong, actually, even the basis for all "sciences" disappears into uncertainty at some level. heck, applying critical doubt, nothing exists at all, except the doubt itself.

*non-existent, but very convincing sigh*
 
VERY well stated! I didn't figure this out until recent years.

This is something you are supposed to do for yourself. Do you lack the capacity to figure out the value of religion without having someone spell it out for you? You certainly are audacious to expect a stranger to care enough about you and your intellectual development to waste their time teaching you things that you are supposed to do by yourself. So, I'll be brief. Now, observe this caveat: I am not a religious person. I do have respect for religion, when it is practiced properly, and is not proselytized.

One of religion's values lies in the fact that it soothes existential trauma. Religion offers one a way to accept one's impermanence, relieve one's bereavement and embrace one's mortality. Religions relieve impermanence by offering a community that is connected at what is supposed to be the most profound level to the believer, such that the culture one is immersed in extends well beyond one's bloodline, nation and accomplishments. This requires the believer to identify with the religion in such a way that she is the religion. When she is the religion, her identity remains while her most profound worries are answered by the religion. She appraises her faith as being above all in her life, and as a result, she becomes content. By being content, she will not be destroyed by bereavement. She is able to do this, because she places greater value in something that is (to her) permanent, rather than in the impermanent world, where everything changes and dies.

Another one of the benefits of religion, is that it teaches the true believer compassion, generosity, humility, and equality. All monotheistic religions (except for Catholicism (Pope), and Judaism ("Chosen People/Race")) claim that all men are equal before God. Therefore, there is no man that is greater than another, because we are all overwhelmed in the face of God. In these religions, this God is testing us, to see if we are still beasts, or if we can be ethical men. Therefore, living a life that most adheres to an ethical system that is centered around humility, compassion, generosity, and equality is the best life, in the eyes of most monotheistic religions. Religions have greatly influenced the development of civilization. When religion is used to excuse inhumane actions, it is being manipulated by powers that reside outside of the core of the religion. Religion's greatest impact is not found in the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Manifest Destiny, Zionism, or any other cause that is covered in blood, it is found in the U.S. Constitution, the Magna Carta, Indian Peace Movement, all Civil Rights Movements, and so on. Religions greatly influenced the ethics that are laid out in all of the said documents and movements. But, this does not mean that an Atheist cannot be ethical. It only means that religions have both negatively and positively effected the world. Indeed, there are quite a few causes rooted in Atheistic Communism, that have led to suffering. However, there are also many Atheistic movements that are ethical in nature.

I could go into much further detail, but I think I have gone further than I have to, for such a disrespectfully worded question.
 
science is the greates achievment of the human race. it is our system of working out how the universe works. anything that isnt science based is simply wrong since it will not be evidence based. religion = wrong, alternative medicine = wrong, astrology = wrong etc.

Science describes and explains the things around us but it didnt create them. And please dont say that everything came from nothing.
 
science is the greates achievment of the human race. it is our system of working out how the universe works. anything that isnt science based is simply wrong since it will not be evidence based. religion = wrong, alternative medicine = wrong, astrology = wrong etc.
i'm not a religious person but i don't agree with you at all.

you're missing the rather critical element of a timeline. perhaps science as we understand it just hasn't yet provided answers to these questions. perhaps we as a species are not wired to understand that 'science' yet?

one of the reasons i appreciate science is that it is humble and it is willing to admit when it's wrong. to me, there's little humility in your message.

alasdair
 
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