nutmeg & mmda

[stormyweathers]

what is a proper dose of pure myristicin?

 

[StaySedated]

I believe nutmeg works as a 5-HT2 agonist and anticholinergic personally, among some miscellaneous effects (i.e., weak monoamine oxidase inhibition, etc). I've actually researched nutmeg extensively in the past (went through ~40 years of studies) trying to figure out exactly how it acts and came to this conclusion.

Myristicin (as well as elemicin) is known to be an anticholinergic, and it was hypothesized by Alexander Shulgin that it may be converted into MMDA in the body, thus explaining the psychedelic effects of nutmeg. It was also additionally hypothesized that elemicin may be converted to TMA and safrole to MDA. However, these theories were proven untrue in recent years (source).

Thus, I was quite confused as to how nutmeg had 5-HT2A agonist-like psychedelic effects. I figured it could not be myristicin, elemicin, or safrole as they lacked the what I thought was the essential amine required to produce 5-HT2A receptor binding. However, to my surprise, today I found that myristicin (and presumably elemicin and safrole as well) binds to 5-HT2A anyway! (source; p.s., if anyone could get the full-text of this I would be highly appreciative). As a result, this seems to explain the effects of nutmeg. Anticholinergic activity + 5-HT2A agonism to produce, what has been described by many, as a "medium-strength, cannabis-like high", with higher doses leading to delirium.

Also, the anxiety often reported by nutmeg ingestion (and notably demonstrated in rodent models of anxiety) is likely the result of 5-HT2C activation.

safrole is not psychoactive. also, where did you hear of nutmeg being an anticholinergic?(other than wikipedia, which is too unreliable)

nutmeg just doesn't seem to have anticholinegic effects. when a hallucinogen is considered "unpleasent", it is often assumed that it is a anticholinergic. while nutmeg can be unpleasent for some(luckily not me :D), it doesn't mean it's a deleriant. if nutmeg was anticholinergic, the effects be similar to diphenhydramine, datura, etc. nutmeg does not cause those kind of delerious hallucinations.

it's effect is likely due to an atypical 5-ht2 activation imo.

 

[StaySedated]

perhaps it acts on other serotonin receptors. maybe it has some effect on GABA receptors(not gaba-a) and mAChR as well. who knows?...

 

[phew]

After reading this thread, I'm even more confused about nutmeg than ever before.

How harmful is it? Does anyone have an answer for that? It's been said that nutmeg is murder on the body, but I've taken it three times. Is it more harmful than Diphenhydramine?

 

[indelibleface]

Some of the reported side effects of nutmeg (i.e. intense dry mouth, urinary retention) are very consistent with anticholinergic action.

 

[atara]

Some component of nutmeg is very likely antimuscarinic. Myristicin may not be said component. Nutmeg intoxication produced anticholinergic effects; myristicin intoxication produced pleasant effects.

 

[Jamshyd]

perhaps it acts on other serotonin receptors. maybe it has some effect on GABA receptors(not gaba-a) and mAChR as well. who knows?...

Maybe it also acts on sigma receptors and inhibits CB2 receptors.

And while we're at it let's slap on Glycine antagonism and partial D2 agonism? How about an inhibition of NET as well?

Really, what's the point of this drivel? You can't really "guess" pharmacology by the way something makes you feel.

That said, I will concede as much that nutmeg's effects are, in fact, very consistent with anticholinergic toxicity.

As for the thread at hand, I am thoroughly convinced that the "essential amphetamine in vivo conversion" idea is utter bullshit. After all, how many PMA deaths have you seen from people drinking Ouzo?

 

[33Hz]

Anyone know if the rumors about Elemi oil being used as a psychedelic due to its elemicin content are genuine? Supposedly it's meant to produce effects close to mescaline.

 

[StaySedated]

Anyone know if the rumors about Elemi oil being used as a psychedelic due to its elemicin content are genuine? Supposedly it's meant to produce effects close to mescaline.

wtf? i'd like to hear about that...

 

[(zonk)]

If nutmeg was able to convert to the amphetamines in the liver it would most likely be at such a low %/conversion rate that the trace amounts of amphetamines would be eaten up by mao almost instantly, i doubt even taking an maoi would have any effect as the amount needed to be ingested to get any substantial amount of amphetamine in the presence of an maoi to get any kind of effect would be well above toxic proportions. If nutmeg does effect 5ht2 receptors it's not due to any supposed conversion to amphetamines

 

[indelibleface]

Anyone know if the rumors about Elemi oil being used as a psychedelic due to its elemicin content are genuine? Supposedly it's meant to produce effects close to mescaline.

They're clearly achieving some kind of psychoactive effect, but the reports vary so widely. Elemicin probably has similar effects to other allylbenzenes, like those in nutmeg. And these allylbenzenes seem to have such varying effects in people; some report pleasant pot-like relaxation, some people report vivid hallucinations, and some people report nothing but awful side effects.

I think people who claim that it feels legitimately like mescaline have clearly never taken the drug.

 

[awakekiwi]

I know this is an old thread but there are so many misconceptions about nutmeg.. yes nutmeg powder is antichologenic (bad spell im lazy) but the essential oil is NOT. The oil has none of the unpleasant side effects of nutmeg powder or ground whole nutmeg. ANd that guy who said safrole isnt psychoactive is simply wrong.. safrole is definately psychoactive!! And nutmeg oil is an awesome psychoactive with very pleasant effects and no dry mouth or other BS... so many people still assume the oil is the same as the powder, they are not! The oil doesnt contain any of the crap that causes bad effects in the powder. Its quite similar to a mild mdma and in larger doses after pre-dosing with black pepper powder or oil it can be an awesome party drug...

 

[endotropic]

I know this is an old thread but there are so many misconceptions about nutmeg.. yes nutmeg powder is antichologenic (bad spell im lazy) but the essential oil is NOT. The oil has none of the unpleasant side effects of nutmeg powder or ground whole nutmeg. ANd that guy who said safrole isnt psychoactive is simply wrong.. safrole is definately psychoactive!! And nutmeg oil is an awesome psychoactive with very pleasant effects and no dry mouth or other BS... so many people still assume the oil is the same as the powder, they are not! The oil doesnt contain any of the crap that causes bad effects in the powder. Its quite similar to a mild mdma and in larger doses after pre-dosing with black pepper powder or oil it can be an awesome party drug...

You're aware that safrole causes hepatotoxicity correct? Certainly not something to recommend taking, psychoactive or not.

 

[flyhighk]

Myristicin might be an anticholinergic, but it's certainly not the only constituent of nutmeg. And nutmeg feels very different from a simple anticholinergic

I found a significant difference between nutmeg powder and fresh nuts. The powder produced an intense euphoria which the nuts lacked.

 

[sekio]

You're aware that safrole causes hepatotoxicity correct?

Has this ever been proven in humans or is it a convenient cop-out to ensure safrole is banned

 

[LuxEtVeritas]

Has this ever been proven in humans or is it a convenient cop-out to ensure safrole is banned

It's banned because it is a precursor chemical.

All points lead to potential health concerns with any regular consumption, but then again, regular consumption of most drugs is not the best path to maintaining good health.

All in all intermittent use, especially wherein some precautions (adjuncts) are taken into account, is likely not going to put someone to far into harm's way.

Same for the other 'essential oils'. Enjoy with reserve.

 

[endotropic]

Has this ever been proven in humans or is it a convenient cop-out to ensure safrole is banned

Only tested in rodents and human hepatocytes best I can tell, but barring some actual human testing I sure wouldn't touch it.

 

[DL-ark]

I'm wondering after reading this thread whether I should purchase some nutmeg essential oil.

 

[sekio]

Save your money.

 

[DL-ark]

Save your money.

Yeah, thats what I ended up deciding on... If I was gonna go out to the supplement store I'd much rather investigate high doses of valerian (Valerenic Acid has been shown to displace muscimol...).