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Thread: Suboxone and Kratom (Mixing Them?)

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    Suboxone and Kratom (Mixing Them?) 
    #1
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    So I came across a site selling kratom and after reading about kratom, and how in low doses it stimulates you, and in high doses it's more sedating. They claim in high doses the buzz or high can be similar to that of opiates. This next part may sound a little stupid but here it goes. I am currently on Suboxone, and will be for a while; however it sounds like it could be a good experience using these two in conjunction, because of the stimulating and sedating side effects, depending on how much you use. I can't take the clonazepam which I used to be prescribed to for anxiety, and I could see the Kratom helping my anxiety, thus chilling me out, since I can't take benzo's. Also since I started the Suboxone, I seem to have developed involuntary movements or "twitches" in lots of muscles in my body whenever I start to relax. Also when I'm starting to fall asleep I keep getting that falling feeling, and wake up because of it. It’s starting to get very annoying, so that is another reason I would like to try using Kratom, because it may help to relax me better and prevent these muscle spasms.

    Two main questions that come to mind about combining using Kratom and Suboxone together is that respiratory depression is something you have to be careful of when using Suboxone, and in order to stay on the Suboxone I need to be able pass drug tests, in order to get my script filled out for more than just one week at a time. Also I can’t keep having dirty UA’s (Urine Analysis), and I don’t know if Kratom would show up in any of the categories they screen for in the UA.

    Next if none of the above questions would cause any problems then the other thing that makes me think it may not work is because the Suboxone binds to the mU receptors, kicking away other substances that try to attach. The problem with using these two together is that the Kratom also binds to the mU receptors, which causes me to be concerned because although it is not an opiate/oid would it possible cause me to go into withdrawal or just not feel any of the effects of the Kratom if the Suboxone is already attached?

    Anyways I may add more to this in awhile this is just kind of an introductory to this idea, it’s been rattling my brain on whether or not I could try this or if I would be completely pointless, or dangerous in some way. Hopefully this can become an advanced topic; I’m trying to use a lot of detail, although I know I’m not using a lot of scientific terms. So I had to try, anyone with interest in this let me know your opinions, and if anyone comes across this who has tried it let me know your results PLEASE.

    THANKS A LOT!
    To all who have input on this I appreciate it a lot, in advance.

    I hope this can become a good discussion, I’ll keep on researching, and if anyone else wants to and put down some knowledge that would be awesome.

    Peace – Much Love
    Last edited by CLOUDnine420; 26-07-2010 at 23:56.
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    #2
    Bluelighter Z Y G G Y's Avatar
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    My guess would be that suboxone would bind a lot more tightly to the receptor therefore not allowing any of the kratom to work and making it useless. From what I understand kratom is pretty weak. Suboxone is a partial agonist that binds tightly to receptors. So while it binds strongly, its effects are not that strong, meaning they don't cause a lot of respiratory depression, euphoria or other opiate like effects. So I would think that when combining suboxone with kratom you would only feel the suboxone because the kratom would have very little chance at binding.
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    #3
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    Fo sho.

    Thanks for the input, although this Kratom stuff is starting to confuse me more and more as I read more about it.

    P.S. Is it best to parachute Kratom or is it better to make a tea of some sort? I def. DO NOT want to try snorting it like some peeps are talking about. That seems like it would hurt.
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    #4
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    I just toss 'n wash my Kratom. It lets you bypass the awfull taste and it's a quicker onset. But Kratom is hit and miss: some people find it worthless and others, myself included, really enjoy it. Though if I had access to real opiates/opioids I'd much rather do them.

    And snort ingKratom has got to be the stupidest thing I have heard.
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    #5
    Bluelighter edgewise1's Avatar
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    The only drug I know of that works well with sub and causes a great reaction, in my case, is tramadol. I've used kratom in the past; bali powdered, super indo, and red veined thai. The indo was the only one to cause a hydrocodone euphoria. But as already said, kratoms effect is at the same receptor that the suboxone will attach itself. I also agree that the sub would "push" the kratom off the receptor making it a waste of your money and time.
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    #6
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    alright thanks for the info. I actually just got done reading some stuff about taking trams w/ bupe, and a lot of people had good feed back on it. I'll prolly just stick to that to catch a little buzz, although normally tramadol doesn't do much for me, but I've never tried it with bupe.
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    #7
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    in my experience, kratom was totally blocked when i was on Suboxone. waste of money however, tramadols have the SNRI thing going for them apart from the weak opiate agonism, so that may well be what gives you a high while on Subs. Suboxone is VERY good at what it does in terms of blockade...overriding it is a miraculous feat and also possibky very dangerous because of risk of OD due to the extremely high amounts of whatever opiate you used to override the Sub. for harm reductions sake, i would absolutely never try and override subs, unless in an emergency and in a hospital with trained docs monitoring every vital sign. be safe.

    Fletchacet
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    Suboxone does not cancel out the effects of kratom 
    #8
    Ok I know this is an old post but after an hour worth of reading conflicting opinions on this, I decided to try it myself. I had been taking 2mg a day of suboxone for about 4 days, trying to wean down off pain killers. The sub kept me from getting physically sick, but just wasn't enough to keep me from wanting to turn back to my old ways on the fourth day. So it was either try the kratom and risk it not working or making me sick, or call up my dealer and let myself and family down....Again. Not only did it work just like it always has when I used it, but it kept me from turning back to those pills. So to anyone in that situation, suboxone definitely does not stop the effects of kratom and I recommend it to anyone that is trying to kick the evils of abusing pain killers.
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    #9
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    what dose of kratom did you take? I ask because 2mg is hardly a blocking dose, and with enough kratom (maybe not even more than one would normally have to take to get effects), they could definitely feel the effects on top of the subs. I know that I can shoot heroin and get high a couple hours after taking 2mg, no problem.

    However, I have heard a lot of conflicting information about this topic, the other day I did some research and found out that one of the alkaloids in kratom has a binding affinity 10x that of morphine, forget which alkaloid it was. I've heard people on 8mg or higher say that kratom is the only opiate that you can use on top of such dosages of suboxone, and other people that claim for them it blocked kratoms effects. I've often wondered if high dosages would block low dosages of kratom (for stimulant effects). I also have heard other people say that tramadol is the only opioid that you can get high on on top of suboxone, but whenever I hear that I wonder if they're referring to an opiate high, or a seretonin type high, since tramadol is also an SNRI or SSRI.
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    #10
    I am sorry but 2MG/sub is 10x's stronger than any Kratom; so you are better off sticking with just the sub.

    I have only tried Kratom once while on Suboxone and it did nothing; my dose was a bit higher, maybe 6-8MG at the time but figured I'd give it a shot since its relatively cheap. well, nothing happened besides me puking because the Kratom taste like my ass (not that I would know what my ass would taste like).
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    #11
    Greenlighter Bkbanger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMtrying View Post
    I am sorry but 2MG/sub is 10x's stronger than any Kratom; so you are better off sticking with just the sub.

    I have only tried Kratom once while on Suboxone and it did nothing; my dose was a bit higher, maybe 6-8MG at the time but figured I'd give it a shot since its relatively cheap. well, nothing happened besides me puking because the Kratom taste like my ass (not that I would know what my ass would taste like).
    I would have to agree with this. Sub is a strong opiod... Just think about it 2-4mg can keep you well in place of 60+mg oxy or a bun or two dope habit. If kratom is weak compared to most RX opioids, I can't imagine it outcompeting sub in sny way.
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    #12
    It seems like this thread is old, but with the intermittent responses I figured I'd chime in. I took 1.4mg zubsolv this morning (supposed to be equivalent of 2mg suboxone), and I am about to go purchase some kratom extract, as well as some kava extract (curiosity on this one).

    Anyway, I read this from a number of places, but this quote is taken directly from mitragayna.com:
    The big difference between kratom and opiates is that mitragynine (active compound in kratom) prefers so-called delta opioid receptors, while opiates bind to mu opioid receptors. At higher doses, mitragynine increasingly stimulates mu receptors. This is believed to be the reason that kratom has a stimulating effect at lower doses and narcotic effects at higher doses. ]

    So there is no definite evidence that the larger dose, which stimulates mu opioid receptors (in addition to the delta opioid receptors), is the cause of the increased narcotic-like effect from Kratom. Hypothetically, it could still be the larger dose affecting the delta opioid receptors eliciting the euphoric-nod. I say all this to suggest, that Kratom probably would have some recreational value at any dosage, as buprenorphine is only binding to mu opioid receptors, and kava is PREDOMINANTLY binding to delta opioid receptors, but also MU opioid receptors in large doses.... I'll let y'all know how it goes!
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    #13
    Since the thread has been bumped recently I figure this is OK to revive and share my experience. I am on 1-2 mg. suboxone daily, down from 32 mg a day, and before that a 120 mg. legal methadone habit. The doc allows me to choose if I take a half or a whole strip on any given day but 18 strips is supposed to last me 28 days. I have a good harm-reduction doc who writes for 1.5 mg alprazolam daily and 100 mg amitripyline. I have been stable on this regimen EXCEPT I developed a drinking habit. Up to 1 pint of vodka daily. About 3 weeks ago I sought support in AA because I wanted to focus on alcohol abstinence as it was becoming a big problem.

    I didn't turn to kratom to replace alcohol; that came a week or so later. I saw it one day where I buy e-liquid and bought a batch. In 5g doses, nothing. Time passed. Then at another store about a week ago I ran into crushed leaf, not capsules, quite a bit cheaper. That turned out to be quite pleasant and it triggered craving for more so I bought a few oz. from an online source. I've played with them off against each other and in the past week I've been allowing myself 2 mg. suboxone every other day with fairly heavy kratom use on the others and light use on the suboxone days. I'm going 48 hours between subs for whatever that's worth.

    With daily use I have rapidly encountered diminishing returns. In one way I hope the sub is keeping the kratom from ever hopping on, because that would probably reduce risk of precipitated withdrawal. On the other hand I'm chasing the high. It doesn't seem that related to time since the last suboxone dose.

    Think I am better off finishing the kratom (or tossing it) and going back to the more stable experience where I definitely was not seeking euphoria - on days I dosed 2 mg I did get a short euphoric buzz but only if I was taking 1 mg. other days. In fresh non concentrate orange juice it shakes up and tastes like a kale smoothie so maybe I'll seek a placebo effect in kale smoothies!

    That's my story, I'm postponing any reorder and hoping I don't try running these drugs in tandem on a continuing basis. Just a little summer science experiment. Knock on wood. But I have been off booze so am not being too hard on myself.
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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by abinoosh View Post
    With daily use I have rapidly encountered diminishing returns.
    Kratom is bringing out addictive behavior. Even though the high is mild and sometimes even a bit unpleasant I'm driven to throw more of the stuff down my throat.

    I know that longtime, stable or occasional kratom users are probably cringing at this. I don't want to make life harder for moderate users but I'm inordinately drawn to re-dosing. It might be because pleasant effects are followed by a low-grade speedy feeling that is unpleasant to me. It's like I'm pouring instant tea mix straight down my throat.

    Anyway, IMO, this is not something I'd use for opiate withdrawal. I'm less compulsive with Suboxone. It's been 48+ hours without subs and I've got one more kratom dose left. Once I've quaffed that I will wait as long as I can to take the Suboxone. I don't think I'll be in danger of precipitated withdrawal, but I'd rather be safe.

    I'm dizzy and a have a slight tremor. Good times. I don't think I want to mess around with mixing Suboxone and kratom as I think they might cancel out the good effects while doubling the unpleasant effects. The kratom crash is kind of a drag. There is no crash from Suboxone.
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