Secret of AA: After 75 Years, We Don’t Know How It Works

[shrimps2004]

its g-d how how u perceive him to be not like religion.. it does work 53 days sober.

 

[evilthree]

It's replacement/management therapy. People are convinced without meetings and the program, they are doomed. It also forms social networks galore. I've talked to many a "recovering addict", and it seems all they do is live recovery. Their friends are recovery, their activities are recovery, it becomes their drug replacement. For people involved in treatment, or say people whos lives were not completely centered around drugs, why put them thru an intensive therapy?

As said, someone whos a hardcore heroin addict isn't going to end up with a needle in their arm bein around people drinking and smoking. I have been accosted by many a 12 stepper from AA/NA because I have a beer at a party. Not to mention smokin reduces cravings for me. Recently I heard a programmed person say they flushed vicodin, vics that were PRESCRIBED for a toothache. I have come across several who say medicinally necessary meds are ok, but some take it to the extreme

I find it cultish because of the adherence to the program, and near worship of Bill Wilson and Dr Bob. People literally act as if these people are saints, some kind of heroes of arresting addiction. They tend not to mention any of Wilson's use of Belladonna or LSD in later life. It plays off peoples need for social interaction and structure, especially when many are at a bottom. People doing the program right are pretty much encouraged to ditch everyone, even if their friends may be solely weed smokers or occasional social drinkers. And this whole no willpower concept? Drugs are inanimate objects. A bag of heroin or a line of coke will not jump down your throat, or shoot itself in your vein.

I personally have more fun doing drugs in any capacity then being around the program or its people, and I'd rather be alone and independent than feel like some cog in a cult

 

[donnie080208]

^ touche , touche evilthree. Id rather drink/take junk and have sober periods by my own willpower than be abstinate with no "slips" (till i die) in a 12 step program.

 

[Khadijah]

Good post evilthree. I agree. Its just a replacement, one for another.

I asked that once at a meeting and got a very angry meeting leader refusing to answer the question. They totally shut down any and all discussion that dont follow with their policies and beliefs. They dont even allow it to let people understand better. Any group that wants to shut down the learning of its followers, and try and stop their desire to learn more and understand it better , aint really serving the needs of its members.

 

[dragonslayer428]

AA has saved my life. Don't knock it if you are not genetically an alcoholic. I found it almost impossible to stop drinking until I entered those rooms. If you have the disease of alcoholism (NOT a heavy drinker....I mean an ALCOHOLIC...there is a HUGE difference) you may be able to put a few months together of sobriety without AA, but statistics show that you will more than likely fall back to drinking unless you give your will and your life over to the care of G-d, go to meetings and work the steps. I've never met a true alcoholic (someone that drinks every day in excess and can't stop after that first drink) just stop on their own. If they can do that, more than likely, they are just a heavy drinker and not a true alcoholic.

 

[momo3]

I got sober from heroin 5.5 years ago. Man, its flown by. Today is my first visit back to this forum.

AA helped me dramatically for a few years, but then I got out of it.

ITs very clique-ey and people one-up each other on how much they are invovled. Its kinda weird how mcuh peole get into it. Very weird actually.

HOWEVER, I will not bash it. Its a great thing in many ways. Its actually pretty open, and not church-like too much.

Its about as open as an organized group of people can get ,


I think AA helps people and I think ripping on it and doomsaying it is kind of stupid. If it helps people, so be it.

Yes, its fun to think of it as a bunch of drunk losers who bitch and moan, and it often is, but, man, it helps a shitload of people... and it helped me, early on.. but now I dont feel like I am too into it any more or need it.


------------


I am editing this thread as I skimmed back a bit and read a previous post.

It inspired more thought.

I also HATE how AA makes you SAY you're an alcoholic, even if you went in for drugs.

I honestly do thin I could be an alcoholic if I went on a desert island with no drugs on it.

But my body prefers drugs far before alcohol, and my poison was certainly drugs.

I never once thought "i love alcohol", but I think I've personally thought "I loved __________" with many other drugs, primarily marijuana and opiates.

So yes, I've had NO issues being around drinkers, and actually enjoy being with my friends when they get drunk.

 

[nearjat]

Most AA meeting I've been to totally permit saying "I'm an addict" if you dont like the alcoholic label, which is mostly out of tradition.

Lacey I've loved most what you've had to say. Pretty much speaking my thoughts the last few weeks. I've been thinking about using MDMA and all my AA/NA brainwashing made me honestly frightened to do so, even though half of me feels very comfortable with it and logically nothing bad will happen.

AA has helped me socially a ton though.

 

[Pimp Lazy]

Has anyone mentioned what is called "transfer of dependence"? You see it in born agains and AA/NA/etc.A. That's what it is to a huge degree. It sucks. I've been to NA with my girlfriend who was court ordered and was getting harassed by shitty people, but it sucks. I talked there but I never said, "I'm an addict." Because I'm not. I've been addicted to things, but I've stopped. It teaches a mindset and a dogma that is not in keeping with reality and doesn't break dependent mindsets. It substitutes to a large degree. It also gives some people who really need it a sense of community and stability. I wish those were things that our society could give in the form of more public spaces, public spaces where you can hang out that don't cost money, and a more friendly general atmosphere, but maybe that's too ambitious. Well Happy 4th mofuckers. Have a good one.

Peace,
PL

 

[dethkon]

(Bolding is mine)

But how effective is AA? That seemingly simple question has proven maddeningly hard to answer. Ask an addiction researcher a straightforward question about AA’s success rate and you’ll invariably get a distressingly vague answer. Despite thousands of studies conducted over the decades, no one has yet satisfactorily explained why some succeed in AA while others don’t, or even what percentage of alcoholics who try the steps will eventually become sober as a result.

A big part of the problem, of course, is AA’s strict anonymity policy, which makes it difficult for researchers to track members over months and years. It is also challenging to collect data from chronic substance abusers, a population that’s prone to lying. But researchers are most stymied by the fact that AA’s efficacy cannot be tested in a randomized experiment, the scientific gold standard.

“If you try to randomly assign people to AA, you have a problem, because AA is free and is available all over the place,” says Alcohol Research Group’s Kaskutas. “Plus, some people will just hate it, and you can’t force them to keep going.” In other words, given the organization’s open-door membership policy, it would be nearly impossible for researchers to prevent people in a control group from sneaking off to an AA meeting and thereby tainting the data. On the other hand, many subjects would inevitably loathe AA and drop out of the study altogether.

Another research quandary is how to account for the selection effect. AA is known for doing a better job of retaining drinkers who’ve hit rock bottom than those who still have a ways to fall. But having totally destroyed their lives, the most desperate alcoholics may already be committed to sobriety before ever setting foot inside a church basement. If so, it might be their personal commitment, rather than AA, that is ultimately responsible for their ability to quit.

As a result of these complications, AA research tends to come to wildly divergent conclusions, often depending on an investigator’s biases. The group’s “cure rate” has been estimated at anywhere from 75 percent to 5 percent, extremes that seem far-fetched. Even the most widely cited (and carefully conducted) studies are often marred by obvious flaws. A 1999 meta-analysis of 21 existing studies, for example, concluded that AA members actually fared worse than drinkers who received no treatment at all. The authors acknowledged, however, that many of the subjects were coerced into attending AA by court order. Such forced attendees have little shot at benefiting from any sort of therapy—it’s widely agreed that a sincere desire to stop drinking is a mandatory prerequisite for getting sober.

Here's the problem: Confirmation bias. If you are a drunk, and you quit using AA, then you are someone the program has "cured." However, if you are a drunk, and you manage to quit without using AA, then you never were a true Alcoholic in the first place.

You'll never get a true "success rate" because of the way "Alcoholic" is defined in AA uses circular logic: if you're powerless over Alcohol, you are an Alcoholic. If you are powerless over Alcohol, but overcome your addiction without the 12 steps, then you were never powerless, were you? 8)

That said, I do agree with the article that it works for some people. So I support that.

 

[rachamim]

12 Step Philosophy is a croc of shi*. I am sincerely glad for those who gain benefit from it but as Lacey correctly pointed out, in not so many words, it is a cult and like any cult is depends on "brain washing." Whether 1 sells shi**y flowers in rundown airports or instead sits in a church hall coming close to masturbating over watered down Oxford rehash it is all 1 in the same.

There are some, perhaps a good many who will say that the end justifies the means but in honesty, the Nazis said the same thing.

My biggest problem with 12 Step is not in its Cult-like blind acceptance but of its negation of the physical aspect of addiction. In the 1930s people like "Bill" had no idea what was causing their insatiable need. While Addiction Science is still in its infancy it has progressed enough to know that there are some very real physiological issues and that "willpower" just won't cut it.

12 Step is selling a faulty bill of goods. If some want to accept it, go for it but their denigration of others who are not as willing to blindly follow an almost 100 year old rationale is quite revealing as to the true nature of the philosophy.

 

[rachamim]

Aaaah, "Dr Drew," the self serving windbag who like the whore he is has made a career out of showcasing the misery of others. Paying well known addicts to sit in his luxyry rehab so Middle America can guffaw over those "dirty junkies."

Listening to a man who has never gone near an opiate/opioid sit and pontificate over what that addict is doing wrong is just naseuating. At times like that I get that fantasy fron "French Connection II."

Juxtaposing Dr Drew over Gene Hackman's character, seeing Drew slowly become addicted to Marseillese heroin, begging for another shot until he can do nothing but salivate over the "evil drug" and his fantasy about "willpower" goes the way of his 3rd rate call in show ("Loveline").

Ahhhhh the evil Rachamim hahahaha....

 

[paranoid android]

Aaaah, "Dr Drew," the self serving windbag who like the whore he is has made a career out of showcasing the misery of others. Paying well known addicts to sit in his luxyry rehab so Middle America can guffaw over those "dirty junkies."

Listening to a man who has never gone near an opiate/opioid sit and pontificate over what that addict is doing wrong is just naseuating. At times like that I get that fantasy fron "French Connection II."

Juxtaposing Dr Drew over Gene Hackman's character, seeing Drew slowly become addicted to Marseillese heroin, begging for another shot until he can do nothing but salivate over the "evil drug" and his fantasy about "willpower" goes the way of his 3rd rate call in show ("Loveline").

Ahhhhh the evil Rachamim hahahaha....

Ive actually watced a few of his shows while i was too dopesick to get out of bed and they made me nearly vomit with rage. The guy does not have a clue and he has this totally ignorant notion of how to treat addicts. Not that i think he does it for anything other then the money mind you. He talks as if he has actually been addicted to well any damn drug. Id say the hardest drug that twat has ever been addicted to is caffiene.

He is just totally ignorant and people are actually stupid enough to believe that he knows what he's talking about. Everytime ive actually watched any portion of his show ive though about how fitting it would be to shoot him full of all the hydromorphone, heroin or fentanyl he could handle for about a month then cold turkey the sucker. Perhaps giving him all the sufentanil he could handle then making him go cold turkey would teach the prick a lesson in manners.

 

[Fanch]

Dr. Drew... hm, am i thinking of the right dr. guy here? we're not talking about the so-called "Dr." on Oprah's shows who really isn't a medical doctor, are we?

because I've seen dr. drew deal with a lot of different people... and he obviously doesn't know everything, clearly he's never been down the path of real addiction himself, sure... but he seems like an OK guy. he sounds like he offers practical, reasonable advice. I'm not sure I can ever remember him being actively judgemental about a person's situation... beyond saying the blatantly obvious after a session, you know like .. looking towards the camera after a girl leaves the room and saying "Yea she doesn't stand a chance here... but, moving on!"

anyways when he was referring to the 12 steps thing, I don't think he was endorsing it. at all. in fact, he said right before that he simply could not think of any other system that has so much success, for whatever reason. He's obviously not a 12-step advocate.. it's not like he tells patients on his shows to surrunder to a higher power and blame their drug problems on that. i think he just meant to say that, hey, for whatever reason, these 12 steps seem to work pretty well. and if you're not willing to throw yourself behind a plan as solid and as sturdy as the 12 step plan, you're not even really trying.

which sounds like pragmatic, practical advice to me, again. to me, anyways.

ps. let it be known that while i think AA is a load of garbage and I'm one of the folks for whom it could never ever work, I think it is strange how it has so much success with so many people.... so that's why I read this thread (almost) all the way through!

 

[Khadijah]

Dr. Drew... hm, am i thinking of the right dr. guy here? we're not talking about the so-called "Dr." on Oprah's shows who really isn't a medical doctor, are we?

because I've seen dr. drew deal with a lot of different people... and he obviously doesn't know everything, clearly he's never been down the path of real addiction himself, sure... but he seems like an OK guy. he sounds like he offers practical, reasonable advice. I'm not sure I can ever remember him being actively judgemental about a person's situation... beyond saying the blatantly obvious after a session, you know like .. looking towards the camera after a girl leaves the room and saying "Yea she doesn't stand a chance here... but, moving on!"

anyways when he was referring to the 12 steps thing, I don't think he was endorsing it. at all. in fact, he said right before that he simply could not think of any other system that has so much success, for whatever reason. He's obviously not a 12-step advocate.. it's not like he tells patients on his shows to surrunder to a higher power and blame their drug problems on that. i think he just meant to say that, hey, for whatever reason, these 12 steps seem to work pretty well. and if you're not willing to throw yourself behind a plan as solid and as sturdy as the 12 step plan, you're not even really trying.

which sounds like pragmatic, practical advice to me, again. to me, anyways.

ps. let it be known that while i think AA is a load of garbage and I'm one of the folks for whom it could never ever work, I think it is strange how it has so much success with so many people.... so that's why I read this thread (almost) all the way through!

NA and AA actually DO NOT have a high success rate at all. There have been studies that show that people who DO NOTHING AT ALL have actually had higher success rates than NA/AA members.

The shit about it helped so many people etc, is bullshit that the program spreads to make itself look good.

After one year, 95% of AA meeting attenders will have stopped going.

So you have at BEST a 5% success rate which is impossible becuz we know that out of all the members who been there for that year, not all of them been clean for the whole year. So out of that 5% you got to minus out all the people who used or relapsed during that year time, which makes the success rate even lower. A less than 5% success rate IS NOT the "highest success rate of any program." It aint a high success rate at all period.

The way that the 12 step groups presents themself, is that they are so effective, etc. They "cherry pick" the facts about their group. They dont COUNT the people who leave the program, they dont count the people who relapse, they dont count none of that. Basically wat they do is they count the members who are clean and been clean for however long "succeeded" and then they use THOSE people to represent their program, by saying that only THOSE people are the ones who "truly followed the program." you get it?

If you dont stay clean, then you didnt follow the program in their eyes. there fore, they do not count you.

By only counting the people who "succeed" they are able to give the idea that they got this great high sucess rate. It aint really like that in reality at all.

say I have a group of runners that i am a coach of. I teach that if you follow my training, you will win the race every time and succeed. But only if you follow my program and do everything I tell you to.

so, I send my runners out to a race where you place from 1st-5th, so there are 5 winners.

They run and only one of them places in the winning 1-5th place. the rest of them run slow and are like last place.

Usually you would say that out of all my runners only 1 of them was successful, so i have a pretty bad success rate.

But the thing is, I already said that you aint really one of "my" runners if you dont follow my program exactly. If you HAD followed my program, you WOULD WIN. So, if you didnt win, it must mean that you didnt follow my program. there fore, you aint really one of my runners anyways, becuz MY runners follow MY program.

Since my one runner did have a winning place in my race, and the rest of them did not, that means that the only runner who I count as one of my runners is the winner.

Since I only have one runner, and he won , I have a 100% success rate.

That is how the NA/AA groups twist their statistics to make it look like they more sucessful than they are and like the recovery rates are way, way higher than they are in reality.

Also, I totally disagree the shit you said about how its just solid pragmatic advice to tell a person that if they wont do the steps they dont want to get clean.

that is fucking bullshit, I mean for him to say that, not that you are talkin bull.

You CAN GET CLEAN WITHOUT THE STEPS, ABSOLUTELY, AND THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE DO.

To act like the 12 steps is the only program that is worth trying, and that if you aint willing to use the program you aint ready to get clean, is absolutely supporting the 12 steps. Its saying that the 12 steps is the only worth while solution and thing worth trying.

And becuz it AINT true that it is so effective, that means he AINT giving helpful pragmatic advice. It aint true that it has a great success rate and that 'its the only program that works so well' and all that. He is recommending a program that has a high high failure rate and brainwashes people into self-fulfilling failure by teaching them they are powerless to control their drug use and that the program is the only thing that can keep them clean. Once they miss a meeting or watever happens, "oh well, if i dont go to meetings then i cant stay clean. i dont have the power to do it on my own, so that means that i will use drugs/drink." And then they do.

Its extremely biased and ignorant to act like the 12 step programs are the most successful or most valid path to take when you want to get off drugs. Straight up it just simply aint fuckin true.

and to tell people who ARE truly willing to get clean and DO want to, who are ASKING FOR YOUR HELP, that you cant give it to them becuz you aint willing to go to a program that requires you to be a brainwashed cult member and go against everything you believe, that tells you that YOU CANNOT GET CLEAN, but that only the PROGRAM can get you clean, is straight up hurting people. they have a ABSOLUTELY valid desire to get clean and stop using. Just becuz they wont do NA dont mean that they aint really willing to get clean. And you can most definately without a doubt get clean without it, so to treat somebdoy like that is just fuckin ridiculous. I got clean without that bullshit, and all i heard from counselors and people every step of the way was that if i wouldnt go in the program i was never gonna make it, bla bla bla and here I fuckin am, so I feel like its pretty much disgusting the shit that "dr" drew does and preaches. its straight up fucking garbage, and people dont know no better becuz they been blinded by the 12 step groups self serving lies and dont realize just how horrible and unsuccessful of a program it really is.

 

[EoTorv]

AA members claim near universal success by discounting every failure as a lack of effort on an individual's part or an inability to be rigorously honest. The constant testimonials have many people bamboozled. When testimonials are used as evidence for cancer cures or get-rich-quick schemes many media sources will point out testimonials and endorsements are weak and unreliable evidence. I don't know why twelve step programs and their allied treatment industry get a free pass on everything.

 

[StaffWriter]

To those who get some satisfaction from going to NA/AA meetings, that's great for you. Keep going. But I really believe the majority of us don't get much help from it. From my experience, I find the "higher power" deal to be a problem and the whole program is just very, very different from what I am accustomed to. Sometimes I feel kinda bad about myself and I'll go to a meeting just to feel like there is a chance that I will get better. Then when I leave, I feel like the biggest fool. Sometimes getting together with people who have been in the same situation as me can help (usually sometime before or after the meeting, lol). Regardless, I don't get much help from the meetings. Looking at relapse rates and such doing make me feel at better But then again, they want you to buy books, give money at meetings and spread the lies. If it helps you, great! Great for ya NA/AA hooray! But when it doesnt work for some of us, don't get down on us. My brother does that to me and all it does is trigger guilt and anxiety. Some of us just learn different ways. Regardless of the way you learn (NA/AA, on your own, self-taper, etc) I hope you get clean or accomplish whatever it is that you want to do.

 

[Levvytation]

Pretty interesting article. A few ppl I know are trying to get me to attend meetings with them because they work so great for them, but I dont know if I even belive in god so I cant see it helping me any. Are most group meetings all basically the same in which some sort of god or whatever is what there based around?

Apparently it's more about just accepting that there's something greater than yourself running the show, doesn't have to be God or Allah or whatever...

My sister still goes to AA meetings even though its 5 yrs since she was on the booze in a bad way. She has the odd drink now & again nowadays and I do mean just the odd one. She's made a few good friends there, & from what she tells me its mellow. It definitely helped her.

Breaking the rules a bit here...Roy Keane attends the same meeting my sis goes.

 

[NewPhone]

This thread is wack and a lot of supportive replies give 12 step meetings a bad rep. AA is a program of attraction rather than promotion - we don't tell people how great the program is etc and then try and impose it on them or explain why they need it, since we don't label people as alcoholics. If they see what we are like sober and want what we have they can have it by "taking the steps we took which are SUGGESTED as a program of recovery.". As far as methadone and bupe go, good luck. I tried bupe maintenance and know multiple people that did methadone and it didn't work for me. Every single person I knew on the methadone program expressed regret in getting on methadone when they realized how much harder it is to get off of methadone it is than to gett off of heroin. Also, let it be known that AA and the 12 steps are not the only way to recover. There is Rational Recovery, etc. If you can drink or shoot dope like a gentleman, my hat is off to you, but I can't. I find it highly amusing that people who care so little about AA have spend so much time on here telling people how stupid it is. Why bother? And finally, how does AA work? A mystery? We think not. There is in fact a whole chapter in the big book respectively titled "how it works". Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. BASICALLY it is not one thing that works, it is the program as a whole. "Half measures availed us nothing". I actually know somebody who, being a bottomless addict and drunk, worked the program to prove it doesn't work and guess what? It worked. "It works if you work it."

 

[Khadijah]

Thats great that you can get in parrot mode and just repeat the same old sayings, but they dont replace science. I dont care how many deluded, idol worshipping 12steppers "know" how it works becuz in the book created by their straight-up mentally ill leader there is a chapter that says "How it works." that blind acceptance like "How does it work? Duh! The BIG BOOK SAYS "how it works!" is some typical 12-stepper clone-talk. the book dont replace science. And if a team of scientists choose to try and take a scientific look at the program to understand it better, that aint wack.

I can make up any shit I want and say "this is how it works." That dont mean jack shit and neither does the "how it works" chapter. It aint based on science or any type of scientific understanding of how addiction works, and this article is about SCIENCE and scientific understanding of whether or not the program works. They didnt make it to insult program members who think they know the deal of how it "works" but just to do their job as scientists and explore n understand things better. thats one thing i have always hated about the meetings and its the straight up fear of science and medicine, unless of course it can get twisted around to support their ideas about addiction.

by the way u show the same attitude that we are all hatin on here becuz you get right in with the "good luck with methadone or bupe, pfft" like the all-knowing mutha fucka that so many people who are long time program clones think they are. maybe that aint the attitude you want to show but its how it comes off. People in the program just love to do the "know better" routine. Smile and shake their heads like "oh, you silly kid....dont worry, youll learn eventually." They always know better than you, they always know the "real" truth, they always got one up on you if you dont believe or agree with the steps in any way they either argue with you til you sick of it, or just get that knowing smile like "you think you can do it your way, but you cant....wait til you come crawlin back to us and then youll understand."

but Im done , becuz i know its prolly useless to even be replyin int he first place. the fact that all your arguements aint nothing but repeated 12-step slogans shoulda just had me rollin my eyes and passin on instead of botherin to write back but I guess Im a sucka for punishment. For real, when people say that shit and really believe it , repeating these mottos and slogans like they really some deep inspirational shit that will touch the soul, if you just listen--like they are some type of profound-ass shit instead of corny little meeting sayings....like somehow, to just repeat a slogan is a legitimate, valid argument that explains everything....there aint no gettin thru to ppl like that, so my bad for even startin.

 

[paranoid android]

This thread is wack and a lot of supportive replies give 12 step meetings a bad rep. AA is a program of attraction rather than promotion - we don't tell people how great the program is etc and then try and impose it on them or explain why they need it, since we don't label people as alcoholics. If they see what we are like sober and want what we have they can have it by "taking the steps we took which are SUGGESTED as a program of recovery.". As far as methadone and bupe go, good luck. I tried bupe maintenance and know multiple people that did methadone and it didn't work for me. Every single person I knew on the methadone program expressed regret in getting on methadone when they realized how much harder it is to get off of methadone it is than to gett off of heroin. Also, let it be known that AA and the 12 steps are not the only way to recover. There is Rational Recovery, etc. If you can drink or shoot dope like a gentleman, my hat is off to you, but I can't. I find it highly amusing that people who care so little about AA have spend so much time on here telling people how stupid it is. Why bother? And finally, how does AA work? A mystery? We think not. There is in fact a whole chapter in the big book respectively titled "how it works". Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. BASICALLY it is not one thing that works, it is the program as a whole. "Half measures availed us nothing". I actually know somebody who, being a bottomless addict and drunk, worked the program to prove it doesn't work and guess what? It worked. "It works if you work it."

You don't label people as alcoholics? They why the fuck do you have to say i am powerless over alcohol, heroin, coke, amphetamines, etc? If thats not labeling as a addict then i don't know what is.

Also methadone has worked fine for alot of people i know. They don't regret having to go out and score everyday and it keeps them stable. So whats wrong with that? Also if we had programs in place where people could get their heroin at clinics (like that one that was set up in vancouver) there would be even less need for NA and all the stuff related to it.

Sure it works for some people but rehab, 12 steps and all that stuff isint for me. What the fuck can they do? Tell me something i don't already know about myself 8)