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Secret of AA: After 75 Years, We Don’t Know How It Works

Its really not that surprising that having a group of people with a common goal, who can support each other helps. These groups get you to have a support group of people who all have the same interest and who don't come with a high risk of peer pressure, like you would have with potentially some friends.
 
I absolutely recognize a higher power. I got every belief in that, and its a real, deep faith that only came to me thru all the shit I been thru teachin me and I finally can understand.

But that dont mean I support NA or AA. My beef with the program aint nothing to do with bein unable to recognize a higher power, or that i got a problem with admitting i need help, or w/ever. Its the idea that you cant do it without the program. The idea that you are totally powerless, that you DONT change, that you will NEVER be recovered, that you will ALWAYS need the program, "FOR-EVAR."

Stories about people who was clean for a long time and then missed one meeting, gets told at the meetings like fairy tales of the skip-a-meeting boogie man, "He was sober for 26 years. He went to meetings every day. One day, he didnt show up , everybody was scared for him. The next week we found out that he had died of a overdose." And so on. These tales is really like some little kid, around the campfire shit - "She was 67 years old, had stopped drinking when she was 24. She faithfully came to meetings, but once she got sick, she stopped coming, sayin she was too tired. She thought she was old enough and far along enough in her recovery that she could afford to skip a few meetings, but she was WRONG. She started smoking the medical marijuana that the doctor prescribed her for her Multiple sclerosis. Soon she started taking drinks here and there during the week when her pain got really bad. She ended up a full blown alcoholic again, and her liver failed and now shes in the hospital and she said the other day, Oh i shoulda just kept going to those meetings! I thought i didnt need the program, but I DO!! Now i realize that i need it no matter how old I get, and that I can only stay sober thru the program!"

come on, who aint heard these stories at the meetings. Its like, the change aint inside of YOU. The change is the meetings. do it how we tell you to do it or youll end up like them. Dont doubt. Dont think for yourself and think that YOU got the power to change, that YOU changed inside--Its just that the MEETINGS let you do that. Without them you aint shit, you aint got no recovery. They are your life blood, the truth that sets you free, the only way.

its like Dumbo and the Magic feather. He thinks he can fly as long as he got the feather. really he can fly on his own. He loses the feather when hes flying and crashes to the ground becuz he dont realize its his own strenth that lets him do it.

How can you call it a program of self change when the entire idea it works around is that you need the program and you need the steps to be able to succeed, and if you abandon them whether its at the beginning, middle , or end of your recovery, even years down the line, you will fall right back into the same addiction that brought you to the program in the first place.

The fact is that you CAN change, you CAN recover, and you DONT need the program to do that--but the NEGATIVE, SELF DEFEATING THINKING of "I WILL FAIL if i leave the program" ends up PUTTING people into that spot. If you truly believe that you will relapse and fail if you stop goin to meetings, of course you gonna relapse and fail. Its the prescribed thing that you been told will happen, its like you been directed to do it.

You take the same group of people and give them the program and tell them that its up to them, that the program can inspire changes but ultimately they come from the inside, and its up to you to make it work, are they gonna all relapse as soon as they miss a meeting?

The "leaving the steps = failure and addiction, relapse and using" idea is a SELF FULFILLING PROPHECY....THATS how they always get "PROVED RIGHT" when somebody strays from the flock and goes off on their own. And of course they come back like "hey, you guys were right, I ended up using! wow, you guys really know wat you talking about!" Its programming them to believe that is their only choice--And the people who really devote themself to that shit, who really alllow themself to believe it, they totally eat it all up every last bit of it, and if they miss a meeting, even if they dont MEAN to, they got this terrible horrible fear that they will AUTOMATICALLY , like, Default to using again. Thats the fear in the beginning of the article that is just so ridiculous to me. The way they warp your mind to believe that you really cant do it on your own, that yuo NEED them.

I guess I got alot of negativity towards the program becuz the thing it has turned into sounds a lot more to me like a program of NOT changing--of believing you are the same addict , just as likely to relapse, who needs meetings, meetings, meetings, NA all the time, just as much 50 years after quitting as the day you put down the needle.

The idea that you CANNOT DO IT WITHOUT THE PROGRAM is the docttrine that I hate and that the whole program is based around.

Oh, you dont wanna work the steps, you aint really ready. Oh, you dont agree with the program, you gonna end up in jails institutions or death. You aint "ready" to "work the program" yet, it means that you THINK you want to get clean but you dont. Come back when you ready. "But I AM READY. I just dont agree with the way you teach this, and totally disagree with your beliefs." Oh thats just your addiction telling you excuses, reasons not to give it a try. Youll see someday, youll look back and see how it was really just another excuse not to get well.

And so on....Its like no matter how you explain it, anybody who aint down with the teachings of the program is just a addict who aint ready to get clean. And if you ready to get clean and really want it, you ready for the program. Black and white, yes or no. I dont agree with that. And regardless of how NA is meant to be, the way that its taught at meetings , the PEOPLE, are who makes up the program and its impression on others so it does matter how it s now even if that aint the original intention of the program.
 
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the idea that you cant do it without the program. The idea that you are totally powerless, that you DONT change, that you will NEVER be recovered, that you will ALWAYS need the program, "FOR-EVAR."

"If anyone who is showing inability to control his drinking can do the right-about-face and drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to him. Heaven knows, we
have tried hard enough and long enough to drink like other people!"

The book actually suggests that 'we do recover.' But that my recovery is contingent upon maintenance of my spiritual condition. Meaning, in my opinion, that I can't go rob or rape someone, cheat on my wife, etc. I must leave the world a better place than I found it. Part of that is carrying the message that I have recovered using that set of steps to the still-suffering alcoholic/addict.

I never claim that AA is the only way. I can only speak from my experience. It worked for me. Nothing else did.

skip-a-meeting boogie man

Don't know what kind of meetings you go to, but in my opinion reliance upon meetings won't keep anyone sober. It's in the steps, and in God. I go to maybe one or two a week. It's not hard, and it doesn't run my life. It's just one aspect of my life.

its like Dumbo and the Magic feather.

I have more to lose now than ever before. If there is even the tiniest remote possibility that I could go back to being completely fucking miserable, pissed off every morning because I even woke up, and hating practically every moment of my existence... why would I take so much as half a step in that direction?

When I get so much satisfaction from flying in this new life, does it even matter whether it's me or the feather (God) keeping me off the ground?


How can you call it a program of self change

I don't. I don't take responsibility for my life now, because self-reliance made me miserable. God-reliance is what keeps me content today. I know that's pretty hard to fathom for a lot of people, but I don't question it. I used to, but discovered that for me, it's pointless.

when the entire idea it works around is that you need the program and you need the steps to be able to succeed, and if you abandon them whether its at the beginning, middle , or end of your recovery, even years down the line, you will fall right back into the same addiction that brought you to the program in the first place.

Usually, again, from my own experience, people do fall right back into it. Sorry if that truth is unpleasant for you. I've yet to hear about someone smoking crack again, or even drinking again, and becoming wildly successful. Usually if they're in AA in the first place it's because they aren't merely heavy drinkers or recreational pot smokers. They're real alcoholics, or real drug addicts. They can't just put it down and walk away. They need something to fill the void left behind, and for me that void is filled by God, and helping others.

I guess I got alot of negativity towards the program becuz the thing it has turned into sounds a lot more to me like a program of NOT changing--of believing you are the same addict , just as likely to relapse, who needs meetings, meetings, meetings, NA all the time, just as much 50 years after quitting as the day you put down the needle.

I agree with you on this part. "The Program" has changed. I will not bash NA because that works for some people, but a lot of the grievances you have seem to be based on the sort of fellowship-reliance that runs so rampant in NA.

However, it is impossible to deny that doing those steps changes people. If you actually observe someone doing it, and doing it for real, the change is incredible. It doesn't happen overnight, but it's fantastic to watch someone stop focusing so much on what the world can do for them, and start focusing on what they can do for the world.

The idea that you CANNOT DO IT WITHOUT THE PROGRAM is the docttrine that I hate and that the whole program is based around.

I never had that idea. I just know what worked for me. And what didn't. I don't think there is any such doctrine to be honest. I've never read anything like that in the book.

Oh, you dont wanna work the steps, you aint really ready. Oh, you dont agree with the program, you gonna end up in jails institutions or death. You aint "ready" to "work the program" yet, it means that you THINK you want to get clean but you dont. Come back when you ready. "But I AM READY. I just dont agree with the way you teach this, and totally disagree with your beliefs." Oh thats just your addiction telling you excuses, reasons not to give it a try. Youll see someday, youll look back and see how it was really just another excuse not to get well.

That type of rhetoric certainly turns a lot of people away I'm sure. Which is why I don't use it. It's too bad you had that experience.

And so on....Its like no matter how you explain it, anybody who aint down with the teachings of the program is just a addict who aint ready to get clean. And if you ready to get clean and really want it, you ready for the program. Black and white, yes or no. I dont agree with that. And regardless of how NA is meant to be, the way that its taught at meetings , the PEOPLE, are who makes up the program and its impression on others so it does matter how it s now even if that aint the original intention of the program.

I guess if you ever find yourself in a situation again where you are considering the possibility that you cannot stop using drugs or drinking on your own, you should give Alcoholics Anonymous a try.

My very first sponsor misunderstood something I said on the phone, and told me something along the lines of 'call me when you're ready.'

So I got a different sponsor. Most people who use substances the way addicts do get pretty butthurt if you approach them the wrong way in the beginning.

For my sponsees, I personally don't give a shit whether they agree with what they perceive the 12 steps to be when they first show up. If they are willing to honestly try what worked for me, with an open mind, even if they have doubts it will work, I will work with them. And so far I have two with over a year.

tl;dr

All I'm trying to say is that it works, and Lacey, sorry you feel that way. AA gave me a new lease on life and thank God for that. I don't want/need to convert anyone, but I used to share a lot of the same prejudices you have now. I had to get over them to make my life work. Call me a sheep. Call it a cult. I am happier these days then ever in my life and it's thanks to AA and God. Not me, my fears, or my prejudices.
 
I do got to say that all my experiences has been with NA and not AA. I had to go to a few AA meetings when I was in detox a few years ago and the AA members really had a bad attitude towards the drug users, it didnt make no sense to me since its all addiction, all drugs, but anyways just to make it clear that I am only speakin about my experience with NARCOTICS ANONYMOUS and NOT AA.

Thanks for your reply of breakin down things bit by bit, Ima come back for more later but for now I wanted to reply to this one part you said

Usually, again, from my own experience, people do fall right back into it. Sorry if that truth is unpleasant for you. I've yet to hear about someone smoking crack again, or even drinking again, and becoming wildly successful. Usually if they're in AA in the first place it's because they aren't merely heavy drinkers or recreational pot smokers. They're real alcoholics, or real drug addicts. They can't just put it down and walk away. They need something to fill the void left behind, and for me that void is filled by God, and helping others.


I have experienced it myself--it took me a few months of not using, and time inside my head to kind of re-wire how i thought about shit, how i approached it. Gradually losing the obsession and the mentality, the addict mindset. The shit inside my mind that loved the drugs and needed them, the addict inside of me. that mentality aint permanent. You aint stuck that way, at least I wasnt. Thru alot of hard work and just gettin inside my own head and sorting shit out over time I been able to clean out those ways of thinking and the same way that addiction re-wires you brain into these certain patterns i was able to undo that work and kind of 're-set' my mind and thought patterns into the ones of who i was before I was addicted before i thought and lived and dreamed and everything-ed like a addict.

I aint using no more, but I was able to use a handful of times , totally successfully. i got high, had some fun, enjoyed it, but when I did it, it wasnt like that "sweet return" feeling...It was not like when you are addicted and you dont use for a little while, and when you get that first high again its like the person you love most in the world was away from you, and now they home, and you just ran up to them and held them in your arms, and that moment of first seeing them again is like the way that when I was addicted, i would eel when i did my first shot after a while of not using.

But it was compeltely different after I got clean. It was just......A fun time. Just a high, a recreational drug, a thing I did that was just, wat it was. It wasnt like i felt this kind of ecstasy, that rush of happiness that I was doing dope again. It wasnt like gettin reunited with your long lost love, or your first bite of food after starving lost in a snow storm for 2 weeks. I cant hardly explain the difference--it was just a drug. Just a high, just a feeling. All that mentality, all the baggage ATTACHED to the high--it wasnt there. It wasnt nothing even close to the feeling of release, relief, ecstasy, total complete surrender, that it used to be when I was hooked on the shit living the life of a junkie.

I never realized that the change in my attitude, in how i saw it, how i thought about it , everything, could cause that much of a difference. It was amazing--it was like that obsession, that feeling of always feelin drawn to heroin, like a magnet, it was gone. That way that it would always suck me back, the way i loved it and thought of it so lovingly.....

Imagine a unhealthy relationship with somebody that you head over heels in love with...the kind of relationship where you so passionately, intensely in love with that person that its scary, that kind of would-do-anything attitude, that makes people go crazy, light their boyfriends house on fire and shit like that. The kind of way that person CONTROLS the other, how they are obsessed with their mate, how they could never imagine leaving them, how that person got so much power over the other, they cant possibly imagine life without their mate, every word the mate says got the possiblity to make them laugh or cry....The feeling that a stalked, battered woman has of her husband/Boyfriend always being after them, the life of fear, that they aint never safe, and the way a person can influence your life so deeply all the way to the core.

Now imagine finally getting out of that relationship, and being able to see that person when you happen to walk past each other in the grocery store, and feel nothing. Just see them like any other stranger that you walk by. All their power over you is gone, and you just feel nothin at all, nothing different than how you did before you saw them.

Thats how it was for me when i used again. In the past "seeing my ex husband" to keep the metaphor, would have caused me to feel afraid, or feel a rush of wanting him back, wanting to be with him again. I would have either felt scared , like i had to get away, like the walls closing in, terrified, OR, felt a rush of excitement--I missed him so much! I got to be with him again. And ran up to him, grabbed him, "lets get a motel room, I need you, i missed you, i cant wait to be with you again", totally overwhelmed by that intensity, that obsession.

THAT is the addicts reaction to their DOC--afraid that they might use again, scared that its gonna somehow come and attack them, suck them up and whisk them away back to addict-life, that they are so vulnerable, at risk, at any moment they could fall in and drownd in a relapse. Or the giving into temptation, overpowering urge and craving to do it again, to feel it one more time, to get that feeling back and let it wash over them.

But the non addict is "take it or leave it." All the emotional, psychological response is gone.

Over 9 months, I used a few times. Enough to count on one hand i would say , i didnt keep count of it but it was very little.

Each time, I used for one day. I enjoyed it, not as much as I used to becuz that intense rollercoaster ride wasnt there, and part of really enjoying the high was feeling the lows. But yea, it was fun, I got high, caught a nod and got my kicks. But the next day I didnt feel regret, didnt feel sad that it was over, like i wished i could do it again. I didnt have the urge to go cop again, "just one more time." I didnt feel nothing, really. It was over, that was that.

Thinking about when i could or would do it again didnt cross my mind. It wasnt a countdown to next time. It wasnt just killin time, days, weeks, months, til i could get high again. The shit was out of my mind, not a issue. it didnt sneak into my thoughts, it was never constantly there lurking in the back of my mind like it was when i was using and addicted.

I would absolutely say that I WAS able to use "just once" and not fall off. Not go back into the addict life, not "relapse". Anytime I did used it was a choice that I decided on after making sure it was the right timing, usually it was on a special type of day like taking a trip down the shore, or for my birthday, my mans birthday, a meet up with a friend that I hadnt seen in a long time who came out from Cali to visit, etc.

And i was most definately a "real" drug addict. When I was addicted, no I couldnt just put it down and walk away. But now I can. I choose not to these days, and I aint gonna be using no more now, but the point is that I did, and was able to. And if I was still open to the idea of gettin high, I can definately have "just one" and be done. In the past I couldnt, aint no question. But I aint the same person that I was. I aint the same addict, and aint gonna be the same addict forever. I aint always just gonna be "drug addict", at risk of any and every substance. I dont use no drugs now, but say i did-- If i take some E pills, I aint gonna go crazy on them and start usin em all the time. I have ALWAYS been able to drink responsibly without over doing it, without even bein interested in overdoing it. With other drugs, it was never that I had to control myself from wanting to overdo it , and was able to. It was that I didnt even have the urge to abuse them in the first place, so it wasnt a issue.

But with opiates unfortunately that wasnt the case. I always had the craving for more and i always listened to it for many years. It took from the time I was 14 to bein 23 now, that I finally got able to get a handle on it. But now I got the same indifference...I will always enjoy opiates if I happen to take them for watever reason it may be, but that hold that they had on me, that obsessive love that I had for them, thats gone now. Killin off that destructive obsession is one of the main difference between the addictive mentality and the mentality of somebody using recreationally.

It took a while to get there and a whole lot of deep thinking and bein honest with myself, understanding where all these needs to use was coming from and finding other ways to live and be happy. It was a lot of work in my head, no question about that.

But the same person that use to shoot 10 bags in one shot, who could waste 50 bags in a day and a half, who overdosed, and then pulled the IV out as soon as the cops left the hospital and went back to go get the dope that had been stashed before the friends called 911 to try and get high again, cuz she was mad that such a great high had got interrupted by the EMT's resussitating her--That person was able to change, and that changed person was able to use that same drug that once totally owned her life, in a responsible, moderate way, without letting it cause her to fall back into the same old traps of addiction, and being able to let go of it when she had to.

I understand that not many people will be like me, and many addicts really CANT ever use again without fallin right back into it. But some people can, and becuz I am one of them I hate the idea that always gets drilled into the head of anybody that is at a NA meeting, "You use once, you are done for", and so on. It aint like that for me and becuz I been able to successfully use "just once" from time to time without no negative effects, without anything even close to getting addicted again, and not even that I was able to control the urge to act like an addict but the fact that I didnt even HAVE that urge at all--Becuz of that I know that there is more, that you aint got to limit yourself with these ideas that you "cant" do this or that becuz you are a addict. For me at least, for others it maybe and probably is different. But for me, I know where I stand with it and it aint nowhere near the ideas of the lifestyle they teaching in NA.
 
To be honest I wouldn't call being on MMT "clean" since it is a replacement therapy for an addiction. It is definitely a lot better then being clean and feeling like shit or being prone to relapse though. IMO it's better to be on MMT then to having to go to meetings every day..

wow... chastising someone for being on replacement therapy, and then saying you would rather take a narcotic drug every day for the rest of your life to "stay clean" than remain entirely drug free and simply go to a meeting. the absolute lack of clarity in the thought process during active addiction is baffling......

i have been clean/sober for 6 months, i do go to AA and it does help, it is not the god factor, you actually don't even need to believe in god (there is a reason they say "higher power/god of your understanding" and many people in the program use the acronym "group of drunks" and use the group as their higher power)
but:

a) the network/support system of sober people keeping you accountable
b) a somewhat therapeutic plan of action ("the steps")

that is what i feel about the program works for me, so far this is best found and demonstrated in the rooms of AA and until something else with those principles is developed and reproduced with proven success and uniformity people will continue to be baffled by the mechanisms of AA's success and the nay-sayers will continue to stay away on the basis of "god" involvement or past failure because they did not allow the program to work for them or simply weren't willing.

a big thing about being sober is that nobody will be able to be sober until they are entirely willing to change anything they have to, and do anything they have to, to get that way. if they aren't willing to do that- they are just fooling themselves.
 
Very interesting read, as i have recently been in a 12 step rehab and gone to a few meetings. Stopped going a few months back, because i don't believe in the disease model, being powerless and all that. I've felt somewhat alone because it's served as the only cure, although i've felt that i have the power to choose myself. Reading Laceys and others comments really helped me realize there's others thinking just like myself, even if i don't agree on every point. Rational Recovery seems very interesting to me, it's something i will look up alot more.

Long time since i posted on here but i'd just like to thank you guys for providing your insight and experience, for that i am very grateful.
 
agree with the A.A. doubters on here. there is an excellent article on the web called the orange papers that clearly outlines the flaws. from my own experience i find A.A./N.A. voyeurism, with most long term members stories spoken like of a tape recorder and getting a thrill out of their hardships and an allmost competition like atmosphere of one up manship. i have read studies that have found your chances of staying sober are better alone doing nothing than A.A.. also the its a bad place to get advice with members telling you to stop psyhciatric meds and bupe/meth maintenance
 
@MARILLYNOMARS you can "bend the rules" all you like but GOD in A.A. means god, not group of drunks etc..to say otherwise is absolute DENIAL and goes against A.A.s history and teachings. You can tell someones been brainwashed by A.A. by the same old mantras they constantly throw out. think,think,think etc etc..A.A./N.A. way isnt the only way or the most sucessful professional help is , with meds or maintenance. the stats prove this (allthough still terrible)
 
Good article. The fact is 100's of thousands of people have completely turned their lives around and often saved their life because of AA and NA meetings. Regardless if the philosophies behind it and the "Vaguely defined higher power", it does work and help a lot of people.

I can't personally get my head round it yet and can't seem to make it work for me. I can imagine that a lot of people of this fourm are in the same boat. As, making a very big generalisation here, we want to tackle our problems our own way. I'm basing this, loosely, on the fact that by becoming a member of a forum like bluelight, one has already shown that they want to do their own research into drugs, alcohol, the effects and problems caused by them and how to get better.

I still attend meetings, with the aim to try to make them work for me, but no luck thus far.

Anyone checked out S.M.A.R.T before? (Self management and recovery training). Similar type of thing, with Live online meetings, which I can imagine a lot of people on here would be interested in. Link: http://www.smartrecovery.org/
 
i believe that for some people, especially those using hard-core physically addictive drugs (coke, meth, H, alcohol) that AA/NA may be the only way for them to maintain sobriety for any length of time.

I do believe it works for those people better than other programs, statisitcally speaking.

But its one-size-fits-all approach is both maddening and, in the end, intellectually confusing. I sit in a room and say "i am exactly the same as you." But I have never touched H, meth, coke or even alcohol; am i the same?

What I found frustrating around this community was

(a) people whose actual dependence is unclear, but who glom onto the community because it's a place to belong [there are people in my local NA whose period of drug use appears to have been, e.g., six months of pot smoking when they were 20, and are still in AA in their 50s--I wish I were kidding, but I'm not];

(b) the ultimate view that everything bad in one's life is a direct result of addiction, so that meetings can sometimes go almost like this: "My boss yelled at me today. And being a typical addict, I felt bad." And everyone nods, as if a non-addict (whatever that is supposed to be) would *not* have felt bad. Nope: it's normal to feel bad. Your addiction may OR may not have something to do with it.

(c) the inability to find any coherent way to distinguish between kinds of addictions and kinds of substances; they AREN'T all the same, and if they were, we would not need all the different kinds. We repeat several times in the meetings that drugs only end in "jails, institutions, and death." Yet (as I even braved to say in a few meetings)--can anyone point me at even a LOT of pothead/psychdelic users who have ended up that way? In my experience, there are a whole lot of potheads out there who will never end up in any one of those ways. In fact it's HARD to end up that way unless you live in a very anti-pot state and get caught by LEO.

(d) the concomitant failure to honestly address what drugs do for us. why did I finally stop going to meetings? I am an artist and writer. Every meeting would end with people going to the parking lot, smoking cigarettes (which I don't do, having quit decades ago--again, no way of dealing with that within NA context), and listening to music by the likes of Jimi Hendrix, The Rolling Stones, Aphex Twin, Radiohead, Grateful Dead, Beatles, and frankly every fucking band you can think of who openly used drugs while they were making music and would insist that the two things are connected. They are. Human beings need creativity. Creativity and mind alteration are connected. We can't just pretend that mind alteration doesn't exist.

I feel bad, because I wish NA and AA were more what they say they are. But I worry. The closer I actually got to those people, not only did I feel pressure to cut off vital friendships and activities because they interfered with NA "outings"; I also started to hear rumors of drug deals, lying group members, and false recoveries, enough of which made me really wonder about the claims to success the group has.

I also do not believe they remain un-infiltrated by LEO. There are quite a few people in my local community whose presence, jobs, lives make no sense, unless they have some other means of support that keeps them in NA (for, here again, very light histories of drug use).

I will carp one more time: Bill W's use of LSD, given my own exclusive use of psychedelics and avoidance of alcohol, really warped my mind. Why was I there again?

Oh, I'll add one more complaint: some NA people are really hardcore anti-psychiatric drugs, but when they encourage members to stop taking them because "all drugs are bad" (drinks from coffee cup, takes drag on cigarette) I really start to worry--you are entitled to your views, but not to interfere with another person's medical care.

I really could not have said it better myself. Everything you've mentioned was word for word what eventually led to my leaving the program.

I went into rehab for a "baby" heroin addiction I picked up in my early twenties. I would use for a week straight, get on subs for a week or two, then use again. That was my regimen and I kept my tolerance relatively low throughout. One day I got busted by my parents and ended up in rehab, and consequently ended up in "the program".

Fast forward +/- 8 months and I just couldn't take the AA lifestyle anymore, I left and stayed clean on my own for maybe another month or two. Ended up relapsing and using H daily for nearly 4 months straight before one day I woke up without any and decided I didn't want to drive an hour to spend another $100 bucks that I didn't have. Used the three remaining subs I had left to detox and I haven't had an opiate since. That was a year and 3 months ago now.

I don't subsribe to the AA model for a number of reasons, one of the biggest being that I don't believe that everyone needs absitence from all drugs (speaking of which, caffeine and tobacco are drugs and I did always find that largely hypocritcial). Abstinence is a blanket solution and for some people (especially those like me who are young adults attending university) it just forces you into isolation from your peers. Which, over time, has a profoundly negative effect on you and in my case made me relapse harder when I eventually did. After that relapse I got clean on my own and haven't touched dope or a needle since I last put it down over a year ago.

I drink a few times a week when I go out with my friends or have a beer with my dad over dinner. My friends and I will go to a rave every 2 or 3 months and I'll take a couple of pills. I do this because it's fun, because it doesn't make me want to do it compusively and because not doing it makes me feel like I'm subscribing to a way of life that is being dictated by everyone else but me (which in turn, makes me more self-destructive in the end as a means of rebellion). I'm sorry, but I'm not one of those people that will completely let go of the wheel and let someone else drive. I happily did that for a number of months when I needed a wake up call after letting myself get out of control. I learned my lesson. Now I get the wheel back. AA would rather have held onto it forever, no thank you. Believing in a higher power is not synonymous with handing over control of my life to someone/something else, at least not for me.

Ultimately, I just can't subscribe to the idea that because I made a few stupid decisions as a 19-23 year old that I must now completely surrender myself to a program that is going to label me and treat me like a hopeless addict for the rest of my life. Seems like a self-depracating/self-fulfilling prophecy more than anything.
 
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It works if you want it to. I find the 12 steps to be a great guide if you honestly want to change your life
 
8)

Such open-minded logic you possess there.

If you honestly wanted to go to heaven after you died, you'd be Muslim. Are you Muslim? If not, you're only fooling yourself.

If you honestly believed in freedom you'd be a republican.

If you honestly had a heart you'd be pro-life.

I honestly wanted to stop using and get my life back on track and I did, without the help of the 12 steps. Just because they don't work for everyone doesn't that those people are kidding themselves.
 
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just wanted to say dr. drew is wrong, i got off drugs without the 12 steps. also a book that did help me was the easy way to stop drinking by allen carr. i read it six months after i had stopped drinking, so i dont credit it with my recovery but it does lay things out very nicely and helped me see that i had made the right decision. i love how at the end of the book, he just tells you to get on with your life rather than going to AA meetings every day and obsessing about not drinking all the time years after you've gotten sober.
 
One of the things that irritates me most about people who defend AA/NA is that they always assume its that people got a problem with the higher power part of it.

No, my problem is that its a cult created by a absolutely fucking insane man who did nothing to even try to practice wat he preached, that is completely founded on total opposite, self-contradicting ideas such as taking responsibility, and seeing your role in EVERYTHING, even shit that aint got NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU AT ALL --and then the idea of being totally powerless and helpless and "let go and let god."

i aint got no problems with god. I believe in god, I pray on the regular, and I got faith. My issue aint about the religious tones. My issue aint even the fact that it ABSOLUTELY IS a religious program, and that the fact that veteran members are ENCOURAGED TO LIE ABOUT THAT FACT to newcomers.

Its just that its a program that teaches the most idiotic, victim-creating philosophy, that lies about its pitiful success rate, and manipulates the truth so that people dont realize that there is actually several studies that shows a HIGHER success rate for people who do NOTHING AT ALL, than people who regularly go to NA. Everything in it is a contradiction, a scam. If you use any measuring scale of how to determine a cult, AA qualifies. If you heard a description of how it works, its steps and rules, and etc, and it was totally vague, general, with nothing identifying it as NA/AA, anybody that heard the description would say, That shit is insane. But if its NA or AA doin it, its acceptable and even this great thing. Even the American Medical Association said about the "big book", that "The book under review is a curious combination of organizing propaganda and religious exhortation. It is in no sense a scientific book...The one valid thing in the book is the recognition of the seriousness of addiction to alcohol. Other than this, the book has no scientific merit or interest."

I also want to suggest reading "the orange papers" like one of the posters above me also suggested to anybody who dont know the true background of how the 12 steps got started and wants to learn more about just how fucked up and twisted the "fellowship" of ____ Anonymous is.

Also, the fact that there is groups for things that aint got NOTHING to do with personal choices or activities, such as INCEST SURVIVORS ANONYMOUS, that STILL teaches its members to find out how THEIR ACTIONS fed into this shit happening to them, that wants them to follow these same exact steps for a person addicted to alcohol or drugs , is straight up, seriously sick. The idea of the steps, PERIOD, whether it applies to drugs or alcohol, or "co-dependent relationships" or ANYTHING, is the thing I got a problem with.

And its so easy for the defenders of the program to dismiss anybody who criticizes them with the standard replies of, "You are just a AA/NA-basher" "you just werent willing to work the program and REALLY work the steps, and just becuz it didnt work for you the problem is with YOU and not the program", or "You are misunderstanding the true teachings of the program" and all these other excuses for why that criticizing aint valid and dont even deserve a response or a defense. Its just dismissing it, "you must be a very angry person, you obviously aint ready for the things the program teaches" and so on. I could go on forever if i wanted to try and list all the things that I have heard from members when I said somethin negative about the program.

The discomfort and total tension in the room that you could seriously cut with a knife, while I would bring up my problems with the program when i had to "share" since i got sent to mandatory meetings by my PO, was always funny to me. I played along for a while but after a certain amount of time I just couldnt take it no more and started speakin my mind. People really hated that shit, I mean it made them SERIOUSLY uncomfortable, and the couple times that a person would share after me and say "you know wat? I been scared to say this all along, but i AGREE with her! Shes right! Why DO we believe that?" and so on, was always happy moments for me, becuz if i could at least help one other person to have the courage to speak up against that shit it was worth havin everybody else think Im a asshole. :)
 
lacy k i usually dont read your entire posts because they are too long but whenever i do read them you say so many things that i agree with. i have no problem with the higher power aspect of AA/NA either. what i have a problem with is the closed mindedness, ignorance and outright refusal to look at things from a different perspective that i feel is part of AA/NA culture. and im not saying everyone who goes there is like that, i just feel like the community as a whole does have those tendencies.
 
Lacey, don't take my opinion of clean as an offence. I guess it's all semantics... When you're doing good you're doing good, it seems to me you are. Yesterday I had a little chat about AA with my addiction therapist and she said it is the best option for some. But, like mentioned before, it is probably best for the most hardcore addicts and other people who need strict rules. She also mentioned a psychopath she knew. This dude bettered his life with religion. I guess some people without their "own" values need dogma to funtion properly.
 
Yea I didnt take offense Wizzle, I was curious tho.

I think that AA and NA work for people who , straight up, need to be told wat to do. They need those rules to listen to. The idea that if you do every single thing they tell you, to the T, and blindly accept it all and have faith that it will work, is real comforting to many people.

And of course some of the die-hard rabid followers of the steps end up bein "clean"--Its all in their head--They BELIEVE that with the STEPS they can become clean, so it becomes possible. They believe they cannot get clean on their own. So, they fail. But they believe they can get clean with the program, so they are more likely to succeed with it. The teachings of NA can very much be a self fulfilling prophecy like I said and a few other ppl also said before.

And also like I said before, the idea of Dumbo the elephant and the magic feather. The program is that magic feather, and they really believe they cant do it, without that. The ability to get clean is inside everyone, but they believe that THEY cannot get clean without the program. So, there fore they cant. Simple. We all know the power that the mind got over the body and your life. Believe certain things and they become possible, the power of mental devotion and discipline makes some amazing things happen. But NA teaches the LIMITS of your self discipline and abilities. So thats why the devoted NA members believe and repeat to everybody that you cant do it without the program--Because for THEM, they truly CANT. BUt they dont realize its only becuz they are limiting themself not to. Thats the whole mental trick of the program.

They already want to get clean, they are already open to getting clean, its just "Tell me the things i gotta do to get there and I will do them." They aint capable of doin this on their own and need the program to lean on, to direct them and instruct them how to act in every situation.

Havin a set of strict, very clear rules to apply to EVERYTHING in your life is a very comforting reassuring thing to some people whose life has been full of chaos and struggle. It attracts them becuz they can take the pressure off themself and "let the program work", etc. Their belief that the PROGRAM is the thing that will get and keep them clean, is why they stay clean, and they cant comprehend that the ability is really coming from within themself.

When you take away the program (Meaning, they cant get access to a meeting, etc) thats why you see em start flippin a shit. "Wat am i gonna DO!?!?!" "Where am i gonna GO!?!?!?" With that "magic feather" gone, they doom themself to fail becuz they truly believe that its impossible to do it without.

I dont agree that its for "hardcore" or "not hardcore" addicts. The degree of it aint got nothing to do with it.

I do believe that it is much, much easier for somebody who sniffed dope for 5 months and got caught by his parents and decides to get clean, to succeed at it, than it is for a 5 or 10 year addict who been shooting up dope since they were a teenager, who been arrested, locked up, on the streets, kicked out of places, in and out of detoxes, etc.

Thats very true, so in that case I guess you might be able to say that a non-"hardcore" addict might have a easier time doing it without NA-BUT they would have a easier time, PERIOD, you feel me? And NA believes that regardless of your amount of use you are still a addict if you feel like one, so that kid who sniffed one bag of dope a day for less than 6 months, needs their program and is just as hopeless and powerless as the 30 year heroin junkie.

Anyways, I think its just more fair to say that it works for the people who need to get told how to live, who need the rules, Who are tired of making the decisions and just want somebody else to tell them for a little while.

Becuz the logic is, "well, if MY thinking got me in this position, maybe its time to let someone else do the thinking for me and give it a chance to get out of this position."

So, they give up all that silly "willpower" stuff and let go , and follow the steps and rules without no hesitation. Ready to do any and everything they are told. They believe that as long as they follow, they will be healed.

And a person might be just as "Hard core" of a addict as that guy, but cant deal with the idea of not thinking for him/herself.

The program or who it works for really aint nothing to do with how severe your problem is and got way more to say about the type of person you are and how much you willing to give up your independence and personal choice for the 'greater good' of living life without drugs, --but the catch is , now you stuck with all this program bullshit.

But for some people that is a fulfilling life. It just aint for me. Im happy where Im at, and Im glad I did it and was able to do it with my own determination, with the love of my family and my own trust that, eventually, everything will work out. And i feel even better that I can say that I did it, and it wasnt the "program" that I have to thank.

There aint nothing at all wrong with bein humble. I think its a quality that more people need. Its a wonderful and all too rare thing.

How ever I aint down with the idea of not taking no credit for your success, of that false humility that you only repeat becuz you been taught to say it, "I can only thank the program and my higher power. I had nothing to do with this. I was the one who got myself in the position of needin to be saved. My higher power and the 12 steps got me out of it. So please, It wasnt me." And so on.

Thats all for now, Im workin on writing less of a book everytime I post in this thread. :)

And thanks for your comment burn out. :)
 
I didnt make it all the way thru the whole article becuz I just aint beat for hearing the story of how it started, etc, all over again but I will force myself to. I got to the part of Bill W in the hotel and having a trip-vision of god n all that and skimmed thru the rest.

They dont know how AA works becuz it aint "AA" thats working, its the people who brainwash themselfs with the philosophies of it. And Dr Drew can suck a fucking dick, Oh, "If a person dont want to to the 12 steps they dont want to get better" FUCK YOU, You ignorant piece of pig shit. How insulting can you be to the idea of personal responsibility?

I despise the idea that you cant stay clean without NA. That you "need" meetings to keep you clean, TWENTY FUCKIN YEARS after you stopped using. That you got so little strenth of your own that every single moment of your day is still a risk filled situation that could send you flying back into the pit of addiction.

You become a slave to meetings. Replacing your addiction to drugs/alcohol with addiction to the program. People eat live and sleep the program, the amount they are obsessed with it is straight up scary to me honestly. They are like programmed robots brainwashed to all think the same shit, to believe all this shit, and its the only way that they can stay clean ,is to believe it.

If it keeps em clean, good for them. If it works for them I am happy for them and it must not be such a bad thing for THEM. But shit, all I see after the hundreds of meetings that Ive wasted my nights at, is a bunch of people whose lives are still about drugs, every second of them. Except now, they about NOT using drugs instead of using them.

You cant just be a person who got off drugs. You cant just be you. You got to be you, ADDICT. You got to be a addict who is ALWAYS at risk, FOR-EVARRRR. That after 30 years without gettin high, you are still at as much risk as u were the day you quit, of relapsing. That its like this monster hidden around every corner, that you are WEAK and you CANT fight it without the program, that you CANT do it alone, that you aint CAPABLE of stayin clean, unless you do this that and the third. You GOT to do this, you GOT to get a sponsor, you GOT to go to 90 meetings in 90 days, you GOT to work the steps, all this garbage.

Well how bout this, i been clean 9 months and I aint been to a meeting in like 5 months. I actually never even went to collect my 6 months keychain, OR my 9 months one, becuz I got so sick of the meetings that I seriously just couldnt do it no more. Just sittin there listening to these people delude themselfs over and over, repeating this same cult-like shit time after time just got to be too much for me.

I aint denying that for some people it has helped them alot. but as a person who is a independent thinker who likes to do shit myself, think shit thru myself, there is just so many gaping holes in their philosophies, so much contradiction, so much shit thats just ass-backwards, that its totally useless to me. I really cant do it. That group-think shit, the mindless agreeing, man its just scary to me. its really like a cult IMO.

Is that really the life you want to life, yea , off drugs, but terrified? Scared that every day, any day, you could just fall off and start using and end up dead? That your addiction is a living thing thats like, scheming and plotting ways to win you back? That you should drive 50 minutes out of your way to work every morning , so you dont pass a bar? That you are SO FUCKING WEAK that even driving past a street corner that you copped dope at ONCE can totally throw you off balance and send you right back to the needle like a choice-less zombie? That you NEED to go to a meeting every day, becuz THATS wats keeping you clean--not your own will, not your strentgh, not your heart as your desire to stay clean gets stronger, not your wisdom and your intelligence that helps guide you, not you, but "the program"? That you will always forever be an addict, so even 60 years after you quit you still need to go to meetings and work the steps? That you will never, ever change, never be stronger, never be "cured" or "recovered", that recovery is forever and you are just doomed to always be that way til the day you die?

I aint down with the powerlessness. I aint powerless. If i was powerless, I would not have been able to quit using when i realized that i really, truly, absolutely HAD TO or i was goin straight to state prison. if i was powerless, I never could have used around my probation schedule, gettin high on the day of my piss test and the day after ,and leavin 5 days in between to clean up so i could piss clean for my PO visit a week later. If i was powerless, I woulda just started binging out like crazy every time i got a couple bundles and not stopped using til it was gone, nevermind probation. if i was powerless, I never coulda copped those 3 bundles and just left them sittin there, hidden in my closet, for 4 days while i laid there sick as a dog, hurtin, miserable, depressed, wantin to die while I kicked, and not even touched them, not even considered touching them until after i passed my piss test.

If I was powerless, I woulda needed NA to get clean like I been. If i was powerless, i never coulda turned my life around like I did. I aint powerless, I took back my power that I had gave up, lost a hold on, and forgot that I had while i was usin. I got a choice, and when i was buried in the suffering of my addiction I couldnt exercise that choice, i coudlnt hold on tight enough to make a solid choice and stick to it, but I got it back eventually. I didnt go to rehab. I didnt go to NA. I didnt do jack-shit, except get on my Methadone, and start some long, hard thinking.

Soon enough, i lost that obsession with heroin. it took months, but it happened. It stopped bein this idea, buried in my heart , living inside of me, this passionate, destructive, insane love, wanting, craving, and just gradually turned into another idea just like anything else. It went from bein that crazy lover who you have ups and downs with, the person where its so intense that one minute you want to kill each other and the next you are furiously fucking, who you would kill for, and also want to kill. And became that boring guy/girl down the street that you really dont know much or feel nothing for, just a bland aquaintance.

Heroins grip dropped off my heart & my mind, it let go and became just another thing. Not the obssessive lust for the drug of the addict but the take it or leave it attitude of the casual recreational drug user who has fun once in a while and then gets back to 'normal' life the majority of the time. that insane, doomed love affair with dope turned into something totally lame and boring, like it was just a kind of uninteresting co-worker instead of a secret crush that burns so hot and bright inside of you that you drive yourself crazy thinking of them.

And once that crazy obsession ended, I was able to do dope , pick it up, and get a little high. Have some fun, and then forget about it for another couple months. Without none of the "oh shit, its gone? i got to get more, just one more shot, just get high for one more day" shit. Without nothing really, no feelings of disappointment when it was over and i had to go back to the daily methadone grind. It was a fun thing, and when it was done it was done. and thats all there was to it. I wasnt fantasizing, thinking about when I will be able to have it again, just living for that day when I get to boot another shot. It wasnt even really in the back of my mind.

I was too busy livin my life, a normal life, not a ex drug addict life. I dont WANT to identify myself as a fuckin ADDICT, i want to be ME. If i aint using the drug no more, if my life stopped being about this drug then why should I still make every fuckin moment be about avoiding it, which is the entire focus of the NA/AA programs? Is it really true that every single person who was ever addicted, will never, EVER be able to have a normal life again? That they are doomed to a life of NA picnics, NA barbecues ,NA sports games, NA meetings, NA community projects, NA this and fuckin that all day forever. That NA is the only "safe zone" that you can trust. That NA is the only one for you. NA will take care of you, NA will keep you safe and happy. You need NA. You cant live without NA. Trust NA and put your faith in NA and you will be ok.

It sounds alot to me like a drug addict if you replace NA with Heroin or Alcohol, etc.

If that life is wat being clean is about,.....Fuck bein clean.

But it aint GOT to be like that, becuz you aint gotta listen to their bullshit-ass lies and insane mind-warping philisophies.

But of course , according to them, that only means that you "dont really want to/aint really ready to get clean." 8( :|

I could go on forever and ever about this and I know i already been goin off for a while now, so Ima wrap it up but seriously, it aint no suprise to me that they say they aint got no idea how or even if the program works, becuz there aint nothing to it except a persons willingness to delude themself and listen to wat they are told, and their ability to totally devote their life to that. If you can do that, the program will most definately keep you clean and off drugs, but i would much rather do it in a way that actually leaves me with a life that got more to it than being obsessed with the program and not using. How are you really recovered, really free, if you cant even live nothing like a normal life and it all gotta be about not using? if every move you make gotta still be about that, then you really aint recovered at all, you just hiding from the real world and that aint no way to live, its the life of the addict just without the drugs. That aint no way to be.

HAHHAHA, Lacey I love you girl. Fucking props
 
Man, AA is mad lame.

I was forced to attend 5 meetings a week for the last year of my childhood life (17). And the only thing I found that it does is
1. Drill into your head that you are an AA term, "An Addict"
2. Switch your obsession/addiction to AA instead of drugs
3. Only works for people who truly want to get sober, and are willing to do ANYTHING,

Get sober if you want to, not because what other people tell you or how you label it, take a look at your life, and if you think a change needs to be made, then do it. Otherwise quit whining and stay dry or go get drunk.

Remember everyone,
"True Disciprine comes from within"
"When you life revolves around staying away from a certain thing, that thing still controls your life" Ohhhh!
 
I was forced to go to AA meetings back when i was 20, and yeah, I thought they were just a brain washed bunch of clean drunks. Fast forward now, I have this point of view. When you have burnt bridges of relationships, have not enough insurance for more than 14 days of rehab and need to keep your job to support your self. Its not such a bad thing. Some people literally "have to stay sober" Its free, always available and people genionly want you to be sober. there isnt a easy equation for soberty. Non at all. Feeling hopeless and helpless can get you in far worst places than a AA meeting.
 
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