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Secret of AA: After 75 Years, We Don’t Know How It Works

I've probably been to about 30-40 AA meetings in my life as a family member of alcoholics/addicts. It's alright and it helps people. If it doesn't work for you or you don't want to participate that's all good but I don't see why there is hate. Addiction isn't always simply about the substance but about problems with the individual that need to be overcome. The way in which we deal with our problems differs from person to person. I know that AA worked for my mother and her fiance both. They rarely attend meetings now but they aren't in danger of relapsing. My dad, however, became sober through AA, quit going, relapsed, and destroyed himself on drugs/alcohol. He is now dead. If he had continued going, things may be different. He was an entirely different person for those years he was sober and going to meetings once in awhile (probly just a few meetings a year). He was productive, charismatic, a great father and friend.. now that is all gone.
 
Lacey, the term "clean" in the context of drug users is derived from the way drug test results are described. You're "clean" if your test comes back negative, meaning no drugs in you. "Clean" most definitely means not using drugs at all.

Anyway, if that's the only argument, then it's one of semantics. I could have just as easily said "sober" or "dry" or "abstinint" and had it mean the same thing. I've heard many people refer to themselves as clean without having been addicted to something. Addiction is not a prerequisite for having drugs ruin/affect your life, so for someone that stops using completely despite never being addicted, they are most definitely "clean."

I think you're trying to twist the definition to justify something personal with your own use. I'm not trying to take anything away from your accomplishments - I'm very happy for you, in fact - but I refuse to accept that you are "clean" if you've only reduced your use rather than cut it out of your life completely. I don't see how anyone could honestly say to themselves that they are "clean" if they are still using at any rate.

Someone who uses but maintains a normal lifestyle is not clean, either. They are "functional/responsible drug users." "Clean" and "functional" are not the same thing. I've seen closet heroin addicts that are able to maintain a job, marriage, raise kids, and so on. Addicts. Are you telling me they are "clean" because they are living a normal life? Being able to use between probation piss tests in most certainly not being "clean" - it's being a smart or clever drug user, whichever you prefer. No offense, but I wouldn't label that as being "responsible" though. Being responsible would be following the guidelines set by your probation, which means being "clean" and not using at all.

Like I said, I'm not a fan of NA by any means. I think it's horrible, but the truth of the matter is, it works for some people, and dismissing it completely because Methadone and Suboxone are available isn't smart. Not everyone wants to go that route, so for them, NA should be an option.

My point still stands that it's much easier to get "clean" - no matter how you define the word - with Methadone or Suboxone than it is without, so for those that choose not to use those, NA could be beneficial. Even still, it won't work for everyone, but there are some people out there that NA certainly does work for.
 
I really enjoyed Lacey's posts and a shit load of other stuff I've seen her post through the years. Like her I am a long term heroin addict, now in recovery. I tied heroin in 90' first. I developed a hibit for the first time in 94'. Through the years I have been strung out on speedballs, shards+stuff+valium+halcion, stuff and crack. Then as my life was becoming insane and those I was associated with were getting involved in some prety serious federal crimes, I got clean using NA (moved from San Diego to San Francisco) for 3.5 years. I discovered it because my family talked me into going to detox and then a 2 week program. I relapsed and went back 2 speedballs- wasn't ready. But I liked meetings, in the San Ferando Valley/ Hollywood, there were alot of young people and hot girls. More significantly, the people I met weren't the scandolous variety for the most part I was used to. I went 2 meetings for 2 years and would nod off in the corner- by then I was down to just smoking it. I was very honest with people- it wasn't worth hidding and people told me to keep comming back. Then there were the people that said YOU NEED TO GO TO REHAB RIGHT NOW. Those people I learned how to politely tell how to fuck off.

I relapsed on alcohol- prety much planned. I was involved with the youth scene of AA ( because it had the hottest girls)- so I was in it for the wrong reason. Long story short. Drugs are my life, I've been reading about them since I was 11 and have had a morbid unusal facination that I've had since. I also have a neurochemical imbalance- I need something to restore brain chemistry. Now I quit drinking and doing stuff. When I relapsed I was on MMT for 6 years with all its bullshit, ect and finally got off that in feb 0f 08' and quit drinking. I relapsed on coca leaves and ultimately shards after 3 months. Then I got clean from all chemicals (except well butrin). Now I'm on suboxone and xanax- and I consider myself clean (aint drinking, have medical necissity).

So this is my 2 cents.

Everyone who has ever had a problem with drugs is not necessarily an addict/ alcoholic- I'm and addict/ alcoholic but only I can speak for myself. The big problem we run into is THAT JUST BECAUSE YOU NEED AA OR HAVE BEEN HELPED BY THE 12 STEPS DOESN'T MEAN THE REST OF THE WORLD NEEDS IT. NO ONE SHOULD EVER BE FORCED TO ATTEND- IT RUNS COUNTRARY TO THE OFFICIAL LITERATURE AND SOME OF THE OLD SCHOOL MEETINGS WONT SIGN COURT CARDS WE DONT WANT PEOPLE WHO DONT WANT TO BE THERE. BUT WE DONT TURN AWAY ANYBODY WHO DOES WANT TO BE THERE NO MATTER WHAT.

I think most of the people have been misdiagnosed. What the program needs is not the average brainwashed person but opened minded people that can change with the times and suit the program to new advances in medicine and society.

The program in a nutshell. You find a higher power (not necessarily God), look at your resentments- the people, places, institutions that piss you off, and the deep shit that scares you. After that you look at your defects- in my case I'm dishonest, self centered fear, scared God wont take care of me, too prideful, ect.. Then the hardest, you make a list of all people or institutions you have harmed and with your sponsors help you make ammends, this is character building. With that done, you try to act ritcheously on a daily bases as opposed to being scadolous like those fuckwads on wallstreet and in the home loans industry that have gotten rich off peoples misery. Then you pray and look for God's guidance in meditation, there are a million of ways to do this, this is up to the individual. Finally, last but not least, the way people stay clean and most importantly happy is by helping other addicts.

One can argue you can help others and not act scandolous without the program, thats valid. I have a sponsor, take suboxone and xanax (although I'm taking a break from meetings, sponsors, because i'm too busy working. I think I would be happier with the program. Despite these drugs, I consider myself clean and AA is a program that just emphasizes abstinence from alcohol. NA is comming up with new guidlines I heard that if your on habit formind drugs like methadone, adderal, xanax, suboxone, and are taking them as perscribed, or on narcotics for pain in conjuction with the Rx of a pain specialist, you are still clean. This is a spiritual program, when desperation makes us do scandolous things thats when we relapse. Thats why drus need to be legalized. People place too much emphasis on time. Its the guilt of a relapse and not the relapse that usually fuck people up because people put too much tendency on time and make it a case were they worship those with most time- I'm working against that and not all old timers are like that. As they say, we all have today.

I too am against the rigid cult-like tendencies. Best cure, when people tell you that you have to do something one way or if you don't you'll relapse tell them fuck you. Again- nobody can tell you that you are an addict that needs the twelve steps, this disease is unique in that self diagnosis is not only appropriate, its essential. Studies have shown that a percentage do go back to drinking or using in a controlled fashion.

I love drugs, they are my life, I love all aspects of them, sociocultural, history, pharmacology, ect, ect... Can't wait until they find the drug that lets people use and take away the drug craving.

What has fucked up the program more than anything is the recovery/industrial complex- the alliance between law enforcement, courts, jais, and formal treatment centers and their lobyists that keep drugs criminalized and give those caught two options: jail and whatever treatment your po makes you do or being sentences to treatment centers were they break you done and brain wash you. These approaches are futile, an addict, that is a real addict won't quit until they are ready. Unitl then HARM REDUCTION needs to be available. As the swiss have found, for instance, when you make all the heroin a dopefiend wants available, they will taper their dose and then stop. My theory is your sick, waiting for the connect, there lagging, you worry, when they show up your sick as a dog. The connect becomes associated with relief. Being hella dope sick and then getting right makes you more addicted than if you get your morning dose and are mildly sick at most. This makes the cycle harder to break.

Gone on way to long. 12 steps, done right work for real addicts, but there are way too many people using it to boast their own small egos and exercise power over people. And there is a huge industry that catters to rehabibg addicts and throwing them in jail thats preventing more progressive laws and approaches other than 12 step like moderation studies. Sorry for the long post.
 
Yo J SPUN. Word up on that post. That was just perfect. The best part is when you emphasize desperation makes us do crazy things. That's why maintance can help people so much. They dont have to deal with all the bull shit, for the most part. I cant really add anything, you said it perfectly.
 
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"Good Meetings"

1.)Focus on AA literature. There is usually no medical advice. In the early days they would detox the alcoholic at somebodies house with a bottle of whiskey.

2.) Point of the program is living in society just like everybody else but living and enjoying life without the use of drugs. So going to bars, working in bars, working in a pharmacy if that was your source ect... without jonesing and without white nuckling it. This is as opposed to hiding from bars or people, ect...Some people in AA after some time have EtOH in their house in case they have guests.

3.)Good meetings are ones were people don't bitch about their life, or go on about their war stories, or how they are miserable because they have some asshole at work and they poped them one in the face or spit in their coffee and now they feel better. The point of meetings is to describe problems in life and how the spiritual tools you used made you ultimately at peace with yourself and solved the problem with the other person- if that bonus resulted, how you feel by practicing spiritual principles is the message they talk about.

4.) What is the message: That an addict, any addict will stop using drugs, loose the desire to use, and find a new way of life. NA claims that no one who lives the NA program and is an addict has failed to find recovery. Again, one needs to be an addict first. This is a program that is the last house on the block for who upper class bullshit programs and bullshit street programs that exploit people have failed. Most importantly its for people who have lost control over the ability to use drugs to the point were drugs have used them despite trying it every way. Its not for people- and I believe there are more than 12 stepers would like you 2 believe that have learned how to control drugs through self control. I can't- I know this from years of trying every conceivable way, but alittle chemical help doesn't hurt. Ultimately its our lives and program so we can take what works for us and do what we want or find works- methadone, ect... are tools in the tool box that lift the desperation so people can live by spiritual principles and achieve spiritual recovery.

ps: I started MMT (had done like 20 detoxes in the years before) but barely made it into the county program. Before that had to drive 1 hr each way to SF to get my dose for 2 months. Anyway, it was $100.00 which dropped to 50$ because I was a student. But the nursing staff was lame, poping people for alcohol on their breath, taking their time when you were late, only open b/w 7-11 (6 if you had a job). Group 1 time a week.

Got up to 130 mg because kept handing in dirties and they threatened to kick me off ( no other clinics in San Jose with 1 hr). Stoped after year on 130 right before ax. Tapered to 75 and moved to San Diego after 2 years.

In San Diego it was easier to get around piss test ( no temp) didn't test for benzos, thc, didn't give shit about EtOH. Nice staff. Good nurses that moved you along. Great counselors that got me steps-6. Relapsed on tar for a while but I had a pitcher of urine, shits changed i heard- aint as easy. But anyway I paid $300.00/ month but did better there because they treated me like a real person not a 2 year old and was able to taper. Place was oppen for dosing 5:30-7:00 pm! Got execeptions for travel easily rather than courtesy doses were every time somebody forgot to call. When that happened to us in Burbank when we were looking south to move, the clinics director called our San Jose director and tore him a new asshole for being such an insensetive asshole. Anyway way off topic

At good meetings you don't here bitching and moaning about how life sucks or dicksizing about who used more, but about the solution to the problem. There are lots of meetings go to different ones till you find the right one. If your young, give young peoples' meetings a try. You can relate, and if your court bordered, stuck at a meeting, there aint anything wrong with alittle eye candy. Atleast its easier to relate as opposed to a room full of old miserable dry drunks.
 
How inspiring that the founder of AA was another delirious prophet. I guess it's good if it helps but I'm really happy the twelve steps are not the gold standard here.
 
sixpartseven said:
Lacey, the term "clean" in the context of drug users is derived from the way drug test results are described. You're "clean" if your test comes back negative, meaning no drugs in you. "Clean" most definitely means not using drugs at all.

Anyway, if that's the only argument, then it's one of semantics. I could have just as easily said "sober" or "dry" or "abstinint" and had it mean the same thing. I've heard many people refer to themselves as clean without having been addicted to something. Addiction is not a prerequisite for having drugs ruin/affect your life, so for someone that stops using completely despite never being addicted, they are most definitely "clean."

I think you're trying to twist the definition to justify something personal with your own use. I'm not trying to take anything away from your accomplishments - I'm very happy for you, in fact - but I refuse to accept that you are "clean" if you've only reduced your use rather than cut it out of your life completely. I don't see how anyone could honestly say to themselves that they are "clean" if they are still using at any rate.

Someone who uses but maintains a normal lifestyle is not clean, either. They are "functional/responsible drug users." "Clean" and "functional" are not the same thing. I've seen closet heroin addicts that are able to maintain a job, marriage, raise kids, and so on. Addicts. Are you telling me they are "clean" because they are living a normal life? Being able to use between probation piss tests in most certainly not being "clean" - it's being a smart or clever drug user, whichever you prefer. No offense, but I wouldn't label that as being "responsible" though. Being responsible would be following the guidelines set by your probation, which means being "clean" and not using at all.

Like I said, I'm not a fan of NA by any means. I think it's horrible, but the truth of the matter is, it works for some people, and dismissing it completely because Methadone and Suboxone are available isn't smart. Not everyone wants to go that route, so for them, NA should be an option.

My point still stands that it's much easier to get "clean" - no matter how you define the word - with Methadone or Suboxone than it is without, so for those that choose not to use those, NA could be beneficial. Even still, it won't work for everyone, but there are some people out there that NA certainly does work for.
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I dont use anymore, at all. If u read between the lines in my last post carefully you will get the message that Im having a kid yo-There aint no room for dope in my life now.

I am on methadone.

I am, most definately, 100% clean.

If i had some kind of psychiatric problems, and was the same person but I needed prescribed antidepressants, and I was on those,

Would I be not "clean?"

Clean aint a drug test result. Its the fact that you are off the drugs you are addicted to and not using them.

If you disagree that a person who uses once , a few times in a year, is clean fine thats understandable,

but you absolutely cannot tell me that a person who is on suboxone or methadone, or ANY PRESCRIBED MEDICATION THAT THEY USE AS DIRECTED, aint clean.

If bein on maintenance aint clean then why does my PO know that I am on it and say to me , "So, you still clean?"

Why does the doctors, methadone and suboxone doctors ask you "So, you stayin clean?" The methadone clinic, my whole family, everybody.

If i am off heroin and not abusing drugs, stabilized on methadone and living the life that i used to live before I was a junkie, Im clean. real talk, its silly to say it only refers to a drug test result.

So, does that mean since drug tests only screen for certain drugs that if you come up clean on a piss test for the usual 5, youre "clean"? No of course not.

So , which drugs does it apply to? Is it OK to take antidepressants, psychological meds, blood pressure meds? But not MMT? It dont make no sense yo.

If you can say that your definition of clean includes not taking NOTHING, no prescribed drugs, no legal or illegal drugs, no alcohol, no cigarettes, not shit, then I will agree that I dont got the same opinion as you but it is valid.

but if you saying me, or anybody, aint clean even if we dont use but are on meth or sub, and you support the use of psychiatric medications or any other meds , and believe that IS clean to use those, then i think its a really unfair and kind of lopsided way you lookin at it.

I aint arguing about whether or not a person who uses on a rare occasion is clean, cuz I understand why you disagree and even though I completely believe that its absolutely fair to consider a person who does that "clean", I totally get why you dont.

But, to say that someone on prescribed treatment aint clean, now that is a whole nother thing that I feel like is totally unfounded unless you are saying that every single drug under the sun even if its for a blood pressure problem, must be out of your system to be clean. Cuz to allow for one drug but not another, that dont make no sense. Im curious how you feel about that cuz i cant tell exactly by your posts so i want to hear how u are lookin at this and understand it better.
 
Lacey is correct on two points. First, when the legal and healthcare systems assess whether someone is 'clean' or 'sober', prescribed medications taken exactly as prescribed don't count, even if they're psychotropic. Why? Because a medical doctor deems them warranted therapy for a documented medical condition.

Secondly, opiates, especially pure doses of pharmaceutical grade ones bought at a pharmacy (and again, taken exactly as prescribed under the supervision of a doc), are fairly low risk for a developing baby. The baby will be born addicted, and will be VERY crabby as he goes through withdrawl after birth. But he won't remember this, and if the withdrawl is managed by a doctor who's handled such babies before, he'll have no adverse effects later on in life. Birth defects are really not a big risk with this drug class, except in mothers who are full blown addicts to the extent where they neglect their nutrition and hygiene.

Frankly, I don't know how anyone can fault AA, NA, and the other 12 step programs. They don't collect any information on any members. They're completely straightforward with people about what they're all about -- no mysteries to unravel or secret agendas. You're free to stay and free to leave whenever you like. There's no money involved. The groups even admit that they don't work for everyone. Really, what's to hate? Especially when 12 step groups DO work at keeping a lot of people sober.

Granted, some 12-step groups are better quality than others, and I don't doubt that some chapters are indeed not healthy places to be. But that's a necessary evil of a decentralized organization -- the quality is going to vary, because no one is at the top giving orders. There's a simple solution to this problem, though: try a different group!

I am completely against anyone being mandated to go to 12 step meetings, by any authority whatsoever. That goes against the entire principle of the program -- it doesn't work if you don't want to be there and/or don't want to quit your addiction. The presence of court-mandated attendees, who say their affirmations with a sarcastic sneer, really hinders sincere attendees from taking the program seriously and having much faith in it.

I think of AA the same way I think of medicinal therapies. Both don't promise miracles and don't provide relief for everyone, but are valuable to those they DO provide therapy for. I do think more research needs to be done on what types of addicts tend to benefit (and not benefit) from the 12-step approach.
 
To be honest I wouldn't call being on MMT "clean" since it is a replacement therapy for an addiction. It is definitely a lot better then being clean and feeling like shit or being prone to relapse though. IMO it's better to be on MMT then to having to go to meetings every day..
 
Its a replacement therapy for your addiction but how does that make you not clean? Are you using the drugs you are addicted to in a harmful destructive way, living a reckless dangerous miserable life, puttin yourself at risk every second of the day, bein totally unhealthy mentally and physically?

I dont feel like "clean" is that black and white.

If an alcoholic is Catholic, and he never drinks a drop except every sunday he goes to Mass and drinks a sip of wine during Communion, is he not clean?

I think that its alot about your intentions. Dont get me wrong, it aint ALL about that, that woudl be stupid. You cant be off heroin but on pills and be like, well Im off the dope, so im clean. but i dont think thats the same as bein off heroin and on Suboxone or Methadone. Becuz the ppurpose and the intention behind it is different.

you replace heroin with another opiate that you take recreationally and addictively, with the intent to get fucked up and fuel your addiction, and still got the same negative, addictive attitudes towards how u use , then that is one thing.

But if you replace heroin with methadone or suboxone, and you let go of all that negative mentality, you become mentally healthy, you get a normal life and start to feel liek your old self again, you dont crave your methadone or suboxone, you dont take extra doses to try and get high, you aint doing none of that junkie shit--Then I think you are definately clean.

Iunno, thats just me tho. I never been down with the idea that "you just replacing one with another." Because that whole 'addiction is a disease' thing would mean that like any disease, medications might be involved in the treatment of that disease. and the medications that treat addiction are methadone and suboxone. So taking them as prescribed aint no different than a overweight person who gets the lap-band surgery instead of using diet and exercise. they are both treatments for the problem, and depending on the person one might be more effective/appropriate than the other. for some obese people , its unrealistic for them to try to lose the weight that is a threat to their health and safety, by diet and exercise alone. they are too far gone and it just aint gonna work. For them gettin the operation is probably necessary, and will help treat their problem.

for addiction, some people will kick and not want or need a replacement therapy, and some people will. for those folks who been using for so long that their brains patterns are permanently re-wired, just stopping aint always gonna be enough. Especially since so many people are self medicating with the drugs that they addicted to, that drug is filling a certain spot in them, somethin thats actually a chemical imbalance, a real, actual problem, and they helping themself the only way they know how.

I honestly believe that taking methadone or suboxone is a valid way to treat addiction and that a person who is on it is just as "clean" as one who aint. If you are only taking the drug that TREATS your illness then that aint nothing even close to taking the drug that helped to partially cause or continue the illness.

theres alot of different views medically on addiction but if you look at the whole idea of the addiction gene, the addicted brain, etc, the addiction is there before the drug is-gettin off the drug aint gonna make the addiction go away, but treating it with the right medication is the way to control it and make the person be able to live a normal life again, so i really dont see the problem with it or how a person who got clean using methadone or suboxone to either taper, or for maintenance, deserves any less respect, how their achievement is worth any less than someone who did it without medications.



Also, tell me this (just directed at anybody, not you in particular Wizzle)
If a person gets clean in a jail cell, without no medications or nothing, do THEY deserve less respect?

They HAD to get clean. They had no CHOICE, they didnt do it becuz they WANTED to, they got FORCED to do it. So if they kicked without methadone, it aint becuz they stronger, or they somehow "cleaner" than the person who did use methadone, they only was in that position becuz they had no other options and had to do it that way.

So is THAT less "clean" than a person who kicked voluntarily without meds?

And so on....


There is way more to it than simply "a person takes drugs/a person Dont take drugs"
 
Also, for anybody who is inolved in our lil side conversation here about how you decide if someone is "clean" or not, you should check out this thread in DC and post!:)

The Idea of being "clean" - How do you define it? There is a poll inside, and also a fun game :D There is 11 situations listed, of a person using or not using drugs, and I ask people to decide which ones they think are clean and which ones aint, in their opinion, and why they feel that way. And in general just discuss wat does "clean" mean to them, the drugs you can and cant do and still be 'clean', and so on. I really hope that it can grow to be a big thread with lots of people throwin their 2 cents in and since yall been discussin this with me for a while in here I hope that you come join in . (please?;) )

I really like hearing peoples thoughts on this type of shit and I would love it if some of yall would come and participate in that thread so I could understand your ideas better. Also, it would take some of the semi-off topic discussion out of this thread and in a place that it fits better so we dont turn this thread into a completely different discussion than it originally was suppose to be.
 
multiple posters said:
What's wrong with 12-step?
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At least in my part of the world, the fellowships have not repudiated compulsory participation. This is inimical to the spirit and letter of the 6th tradition:

6. An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.
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On the other side of the coin, LEOs and state-sponsored substance abuse counselors are forced by law to criminalize 12-step non-compliance.
 
Lacey k - congratulations on your pregnancy. You do talk as though you intend to use in the future but just not during the pregnancy, as you are responsible for another life. You're just as responsible as a mother though whether the baby is is in your womb or outside of it.
You are clearly a woman of conviction, which I admire, however I urge you to be open minded. A few years ago you were posting advocating and glamorising heroin, see how your attitude has changed? Years and experience bring change, don't be too down on an organisation that has helped millions. Like I say, keep an open mind.
 
un-aa

Interesting thread. When I turned 30 I quit drinking (and using, though my primary life-wrecking substance was ETOH). Although I had been urged by the law enforcement and motor vehicle powers that be to attend 12 step meetings, I spent a goodly amount of time reading and researching various addiction oriented theories and other 'quit' related literature. I can't say precisely why I was able to suddenly become 'sober' after having been to numerous detoxes and rehabs, but I'm pretty much convinced the main impetus was that I decided that, although I had been 'taught' over and over again that the only possible means to quitting was to delve whole-heartedly into AA, all I really needed I already posessed- the power to simply not pick up another drink, regardless of the circumstance. In short, I got myself into this mess and I could and did get myself out of it as well. The two most influential books I read were: 1) Unhooked, by Jim Christopher, the founder of SOS (Save our selves) and 2) The Diseasing of America, by Stanton Peele. These two authors had completely opposite philosophies. The SOS book(s) basically state that one doesn't need to rely on any sort of 'higher power' to quit. One might attend an SOS meeting for mutual empowerment, but, although helpful at first, one has the innate power within oneself to quit, and a continual reliance on meetings is probably in itself a form of addiction. The Peele book, on the other hand, premises that the overwhelming majority of people who give up an addiction do so on their own, without any sort of intervention or involvement in the 'recovery' community. In the politically correct world view of substance (ab)use, Peele makes a compelling argument that people who overuse substances do so mainly because they want to, and that quitting basically happens for the same reason. Although a genetic factor comes into play, it would be disingenuous to believe that one has absolutely no part to play in the decision to use to the point of wrecking one's life. Of course he does believe, quite correctly, in the addictive nature of particular substances, but most definitely does not believe in the addictive nature of people, other than what we are mostly all born with.

Anyway, to make a long story short, I basically quit on my own, owning my own power in the matter. As the years go by I came to realize that my wack drinking and iv coke use was something I did along time ago, and I wasn't really very mature at the time. My life now is completely incompatible with that kind of using. It's just something which couldn't work within my lifestyle anymore.

As far as the 12 step issue is concerned, I'm really glad that I don't need to associate my life as it is now with some continual "and when we were wrong promptly admitted it/ sought through prayer and meditation..." scenario. I'm happy living drug free. I feel healthier and can't imagine any sort of reason why I would care to pollute myself.
 
I never said using Methadone or Suboxone disqualifies you from being clean. I never meant to imply that. I do see where it sounds like I said that, and that's my fault for not specifying. What I meant was that going from using heroin every day to say...once a week, or once a month even, despite the fact that you're using either Methadone or Suboxone in between, is not "getting clean." Clean means you're either A) using your maintenance drugs as prescribed without using heroin, or B) not using heroin without the assistance of maintenance drugs.
 
Yeah, NA/AA whatever you go to, if it helps, all the more power to you. But personally i dislike NA as a treatment option. Embracing a higher power/god to get clean isn't something i am interested in. As well as the fact that i still consider myself a drug 'user', and have only ever been an 'abuser' of opiates. But in the eyes of NA still smoking pot or doing psychs occasionally makes me a drug addict still...
 
lacey k said:
I didnt make it all the way thru the whole article becuz I just aint beat for hearing the story of how it started, etc, all over again but I will force myself to. I got to the part of Bill W in the hotel and having a trip-vision of god n all that and skimmed thru the rest.

They dont know how AA works becuz it aint "AA" thats working, its the people who brainwash themselfs with the philosophies of it. And Dr Drew can suck a fucking dick, Oh, "If a person dont want to to the 12 steps they dont want to get better" FUCK YOU, You ignorant piece of pig shit. How insulting can you be to the idea of personal responsibility?...........
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I haven't finished reading this, Lacey.. but damn.. you got some strong feelings girl.
I'm totally with you. 100%.
 
badandwicked said:
Lacey k - congratulations on your pregnancy. You do talk as though you intend to use in the future but just not during the pregnancy, as you are responsible for another life. You're just as responsible as a mother though whether the baby is is in your womb or outside of it.
You are clearly a woman of conviction, which I admire, however I urge you to be open minded. A few years ago you were posting advocating and glamorising heroin, see how your attitude has changed? Years and experience bring change, don't be too down on an organisation that has helped millions. Like I say, keep an open mind.
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No, I aint gonna be using at all regardless of once I have the kid.

I was explaining how I used up to the point that I got pregnant and how I considered it to be clean, but I think you misunderstanding my post. I said straight up that I aint got no room for dope in my life now that I am gonna be a mom so, I think you confused the parts where I explained how I got clean at first (telling myself it didnt have to be forever to make it easier on myself) with how I actually am now. :)
 
Look in the mirror

All this criticism of a system of self change. So quick to criticize yet so slow to learn, reflect, and SEE.

If you haven't even come to grips with your own spirituality of course AA/NA isn't going to work. The only real cult I see in today's society is the indoctrination of anti-religion. There is this deep-set aversion to all things that can even remotely be seen as religious or spiritual or involving the element of God.

There is no question of if there is or isn't a God. It is actually irrelevant. Regardless of what you call it, it exists for it is simply the All. The infinite. The sum total. God is in us and we are in God. It is a cosmic principle. Not some entity to be believed in or not. God is Life itself. It is the intelligent principle of the Universe which initiates and sustains creation.

And please, no creationist/evolutionist banter. They are one in the same. Every THING has a beginning. It's creation. And every THING has an existential path it follows to its eventual end. So yes we are created, and yes we evolve.

People today are so full of the *I* that you can't even see the world around you. One person thinks they are so in control and they did this and accomplished that, so it makes them feel somehow proud and full of themselves. The truth of the matter is that no one person accomplishes any one action except through the agency of the ONE LIFE POWER. The universal source of life.

This the higher power AA/NA asks you to recognize, not "God" or any other foolish idea of some gaseous invertebrate in the sky playing the world like puppets.

The higher power is your own existence. Your own potential. The very energy you are composed of, which is light. Light being both intelligent and conscious. Physics agrees with this, although they are still working on the mathematical proofs of consciousness. The intelligent principle of the universe which historically cultures have referred to as God/deity/divinity is what we perceive as number. There are so many sources for information on the esoteric principles of number. Just google it.

Number becomes manifest as Light. Light itself being the source of Life, Intelligence, and Consciousness.

I digress.

The point being that its is only ignorance that causes fear of the spiritual. Fear of the Self. That fear will always distort the reflection of the universe that is your reality.

Creativity and drugs are not mutually dependent. That is an absurd notion. Creativity is an intrinsic property of LIFE and CONSCIOUSNESS. The highest Art comes from a CLEAR and SOBER perception of Self, which in turn produces a CLEAR reflection of Reality. What you believe to be reality is created by your own DEFINITIONS of experience.

The universe is but a rippling pool of light. What makes reality is our own conscious interpretation of the REFLECTION of our SELF.

The highest principle of any system of spiritual development (of which NA/AA is but one particular manifestation) is to initiate the aspirant to the knowledge of Self which brings about an understanding of how we create our own reality. That our current circumstance are the result of our own creative processes, and to take conscious control of that process to use it harmoniously with nature. Universal nature as well as human nature for they are one in the same. The microcosm and the macrocosm.

Until we accomplish this we are wandering in the dark. Confused and chasing after every ghost we haphazardly create in our ignorance of Self. A slave to appearances of separateness instead of the Truth of Unity.

This is what NA/AA provides for people who may not otherwise be able to semantically accept anything else. The purpose is to transcend the confusion of the false definitions we are programmed with and actually BECOME that higher power. GOD is another name for MAN.

So please, have your opinion, but leave room for Truth as well. The only way to find subjective proof is through experience. Doing. Unless it takes into account both subjective AND objective facts, it is an incomplete science.

Peace & Blessings
 
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