• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

Any drugs that can force REM sleep?

Peptides such as Ipamorelin or the Growth Hormone Releasing Hormone (GHRH) analog made by conjuchem (listed as "mod GRF" on a lot of suppliers) are able to stimulate your body to release growth hormone effectively and this in turn brings more restful sleep (especially when they are taken right before sleep).

I'm not sure if they will enhance the REM sleep phase specifically, but growth hormone enhances slow wave sleep so this is enhanced.

Whether that is what you are looking for I'm not sure. I don't see a clear reason why you want REM sleep over slow wave, just better sleep in general or what the goal really is here?

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Growth Horm IGF Res. 2004 Jun;14 Suppl A:S10-7.
Reciprocal interactions between the GH axis and sleep.

Van Cauter E, Latta F, Nedeltcheva A, Spiegel K, Leproult R, Vandenbril C, Weiss R, Mockel J, Legros JJ, Copinschi G.

Department of Medicine, MC 1027, University of Chicago, 5841 South Maryland Avenue, Chicago, IL 60637, USA.

Abstract

For more than 30 years, growth hormone (GH) has been observed to be preferentially secreted during deep, slow-wave sleep (SWS). However, the mechanisms that underlie this robust relationship that links anabolic processes in the body with behavioral rest and decreased cerebral metabolism remain to be elucidated. Current evidence indicates that GH secretion during the beginning of sleep appears to be primarily regulated by GH-releasing hormone (GHRH) stimulation occurring during a period of relative somatostatin withdrawal, which also is associated with elevated levels of circulating ghrelin. Apparently, two populations of GHRH neurons need to be simultaneously active to stimulate, in a coordinated fashion, SWS and pituitary GH release. Pharmacological interventions that are capable of increasing the duration and/or the intensity of SWS such as oral administration of gamma-hydroxybutyrate (GHB), also increase the rate of GH release. Because the normal negative feedback exerted by GH on central GHRH is inoperative in patients with GH deficiency, it is possible that the decreased energy levels and fatigue often reported by GH-deficient adults partly reflect an alteration in sleep-wake regulation. Preliminary data from a sleep study of adults with GH deficiency using wrist actigraphy for 6 nights at home and polysomnography in the laboratory indeed show decreased total sleep time and increased sleep fragmentation in GH-deficient patients as compared with normal controls.
 
I know its already been said but GHB (or GBL) forcefully induces REM sleep.. ime..

Alot of phenibut does it too ;)
 
Yeah, ghb I thought of. even tho its been said. Even if it doesn't really help induce REM, it gets you into a deeper sleep.
 
k...GABAnergics tend to interfere with REM sleep (and many with stage 4). The best case with those appears leaving basal REM intact or inducing REM-rebound upon cessation. 5ht action of some sort appears to be the ticket...

but what level of REM induction counts as "forcing" REM sleep?

ebola
 
In my experience melatonin is excellent for sleep. Especially when combined with alcohol, cannabis, kava, or just about any sedative...
 
when i take tramadol before i go to bed i have vivid dreams. i hardly ever dream because of my drug usage these days, but if i take some tramadol i actually dream...
 
Have you taken it before? It's called remeron because it's supposed to put you to sleep. It'll knock you out. That isn't sleep. That's why insomnia is so hard to treat properly. Being knocked out is far different from sleeping, any true insomniac will tell you there is a HUGE difference.

i could back this up...i workout so i drink this energy drink called superpump250 at around 7 PM so the only time i could fall asleep is around 2-3AM. in order to get enough sleep i take stuff that knocks me out. its not the same as falling alseep on your own, i wake up in the morning feeling like shit either way :|
 
If you do one of those special sleeping schedules where you only sleep four hours a day, every time you sleep (nap, really) you are almost instantly thrown into REM sleep. The concept behind it is that you sleep a total of four hours a day, but all of it is REM sleep.

Do you know of polysomnographic evidence that'll back this up?

Electrodes are our friends.

Esmirtazapine should be out soon.

It seems there are at least 3 orexin antagonists in mid to late stage trials now. It's not just almorexant and that GW649868 thing (both now sponsored by GSK) anymore. There's all of a sudden an MK-4305 in phase III. A lot of money going into this class. I'd like to talk to someone who's taken any of these.
 
@OP: Not possible with any med's as far as im aware. Unless there is something new, which i highly doubt.

Also, xanax is great to induce a temporary coma.
 
There seems to be a bizarrely high incidence of off-topic posts.

If you do one of those special sleeping schedules where you only sleep four hours a day, every time you sleep (nap, really) you are almost instantly thrown into REM sleep. The concept behind it is that you sleep a total of four hours a day, but all of it is REM sleep.

This doesn't sound right. Rather, prolonged sleep deprivation should result in rapid induction of stage 4 AND REM sleep, other stages appearing very briefly rather than nonexistently. I don't have specific data, only what I remember from a psych degree.

ebola
 
http://www.macalester.edu/psychology/whathap/UBNRP/narcolepsy04/treat_new.html

Some scientists believe that symptoms of narcolepsy are the result of REM sleep deprivation since the REM sleep of people with narcolepsy is interrupted by frequent arousals during the night. GHB counteracts these abnormalities by increasing slow wave sleep, lessening stage 1 sleep, and reducing arousals from rapid eye movement (REM) sleep as well as increasing REM efficiency. (Scrima et al, 1990; Fry, 1987; Roth, 1988

http://www.ualberta.ca/~csps/JPPS4(2)/M.Okun/GHB.htm

A small, double-blind crossover study examined the effect of GHB in patients with narcolepsy.37 A therapeutic effect with decreased cataplexy, as well as improved nocturnal sleep quality was demonstrated.37 GHB rapidly induced sleep without suppressing REM sleep in both normal and narcoleptic patients.3
 
According to the wiki on Narcolepsy GHB increases Delta wave sleep, which is a NREM sleep type. So GHB doesn't sound right for this purpose.

In my experience GHB causes terrible sleep that makes me feel like total shit all day. I daresay I might feel better when not having slept at all. It leaves me feeling mentally and physically fatigued and also Jittery.. I have ADD though so that might influence the outcome since GHB might also have some effect on dopamine.
 
I found the complete opposite ^

I could get a deep 4 hours sleep and wake up feeling like i'd slept nicely for 8..
 
^That seems to be really common with GHB.. I intended to mention that too but forgot about it. That's why I also theorized about ADD having some kind of effect.

It is quite clear though that GHB doesn't cause REM sleep.
 
I am not 100% but i know damn well...
Ambiem.... Makes you ASS out so fast....i can almost put money that it will put you in REM faster
 
You'd lose that bet (see what I put forth on GABAnergics and sleep cycles).
IIRC, Ambien doesn't manifest as strong an effect on sleep cycles as benzos do, but it still affects them negatively.
 
Benzodiazepine withdrawal is a sure way to induce lots of REM sleep because, as ebola points out, they block REM. That said, I do not think that getting addicted to benzos then suffering withdrawals just to have vivid dreams is a sound plan.

Nicotine Patches give me very vivid dreams. I rarely ever dream, or remember my dreams for that matter. Not sure if this has to do with REM or not.
 
Btw, I don't know where all that GHB crap is coming from. I barely remember sleeping on GHB, let alone any dreams I may have had.

And GHB is a horrendously addictive substance, not really a good idea just for a nice dream or two.
 
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