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    #26
    Bluelighter egor's Avatar
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    Enough with the goddamn mephedrone replacements already...
     

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    #27
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    It's finally illegal in my country. Anyway, the system here is stupid as hell, even Calea Zacatechichi falls into the act... So while they really made 4-methylmethcathinone illegal, there's no act here that would ban any analogs so 4-ethylmethcathinone and 4-methyl-N-ethylcathinone are legal. The other odd thing is while DOB is banned, DOI isn't... 2C-I is banned but 2C-B isn't. Now this is funny. Mephedrone is going to find its way to black market (I don't know for whatever reason as it was 'good' when it was legal because it was a much worse substitute for banned stimulants, now it's probably going to be much much less pure, mixed with shit even more and more expensive than plain amphetamine). This never ends.
     

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    #28
    I did GC/MS for my 4-EMC here are the results as it wasnt sure that the sample I got was indeed 4-EMC or maybe 4-MEC or even cut mephedrone:


    I dissolved arround 2-3 mg in 500uL of water, took 50uL, added 2 drops 5% NaOH and extracted with 200uL of Diethylether and put that inside our GC/MS (60-260C in 19 mins):

    GC Spectra


    The GC spectra showing a quiet pure substance which is a bit strange because the powder looked a bit unpure (yellow color) but since I extracted it, it could be that the impurities are not soluable in a unpolar solvent so the remained behind and werent analysed.

    MS Data:


    As you can see the immoniumion has a mass of 58u which is typical for canthiones and shows also that there where only one methyl group on the amine so it wasnt 4-MEC

    The peak with 133u is the ethylbenzoylcation showing that there was a ethylgroup on the ring so it is very likely that it was indeed 4-EMC the other peak at 103u also supports this thesis because of ethyl fragmentation and formation of the benzoylcation (so 3,4dmmc is also very unlikely)

    What I cannot explain is the shoulder on the gc spectra, fragmentation results are very similar:



    Im not a master at reading MS fragmentations so maybe I did a mistake? pls correct me if I got something wrong or if you have different interpretation for the data I obtained.
     

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    #29
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    iv tried 4-ethylmethcathinone and it is a waste of money. oral doses of up to 300+mg have almost no effect other than possibly a mild(and short lived) anti-depressant. attempting to vaporize it just breaks it down into a sweet smelling amber oil. its pretty harsh too. snorting it is insanely painful and again, nothing more than an anti-depressant effect. seeing as it lacks any stimulant effects , iv tried using it in combination with methamphetamine- both orally and insuflated and this still does not produce anything beyond a more noticeable anti-depressant effect. dont waste your time with this chemical. i am almost suspicious that i was scammed,as im not sure if the vender is reputable- BUT, the powder smells and tastes exactly like mephedrone, which i have extensive experience with. the stuff doesn't even warrant a trip report. anyone have any idea why this is? structurally it looks like a chemical that ought' to be active. is there a real reference out there for its neurotransmitter release profile?
     

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    #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Torabora View Post
    I did GC/MS for my 4-EMC here are the results as it wasnt sure that the sample I got was indeed 4-EMC or maybe 4-MEC or even cut mephedrone:


    I dissolved arround 2-3 mg in 500uL of water, took 50uL, added 2 drops 5% NaOH and extracted with 200uL of Diethylether and put that inside our GC/MS (60-260C in 19 mins):

    GC Spectra


    The GC spectra showing a quiet pure substance which is a bit strange because the powder looked a bit unpure (yellow color) but since I extracted it, it could be that the impurities are not soluable in a unpolar solvent so the remained behind and werent analysed.

    MS Data:


    As you can see the immoniumion has a mass of 58u which is typical for canthiones and shows also that there where only one methyl group on the amine so it wasnt 4-MEC

    The peak with 133u is the ethylbenzoylcation showing that there was a ethylgroup on the ring so it is very likely that it was indeed 4-EMC the other peak at 103u also supports this thesis because of ethyl fragmentation and formation of the benzoylcation (so 3,4dmmc is also very unlikely)

    What I cannot explain is the shoulder on the gc spectra, fragmentation results are very similar:



    Im not a master at reading MS fragmentations so maybe I did a mistake? pls correct me if I got something wrong or if you have different interpretation for the data I obtained.
    Very informational and useful post, thanks a lot.

    Your assumptions/readings look correct to me - but truth be told, I'm no master of this art, either.

    I might be dipping my toes in some 4-MEC soon - carefully. I will try and post my results.
     

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    #31
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    4-ethyl-methcathinone should prove valuable if and only if:
    1. It confers euphoria similar to mephedrone's (even if comparable solely in terms of quantitative level of euphoria and/or empathogenesis).
    and
    2. 4-ethyl-beta-hydroxy-methcathinone isn't as adrenergic and/or enduring as mephedrone's metabolites.
    ....
    now, 4-methyl-ethcathinone might be another beast entirely.
    ..
    What does SAR suggest about all this?

    ebola

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    #32
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    the euphoria is non-existant.
     

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    #33
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    What kind of euphoria is non-existent? Amphetamine-like or mephedrone-like? N-ethylamphetamine does work and N-ethylcathinone works as well. So I guess 4-MEC is one of the first drugs for meph-heads to be great in their opinion...
     

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    #34
    4-MEC isnt good at all, tryed once and it has been a really stupid experience, similar to mephedrone but without all the good things, it was a confused high, morishness like meph, less euphoria, really useless chemical in my opinion.
    (it was a sticky powder, maybe crystals are better because of less impurities inside..)
    I dont know about 4-EMC, maybe is better..
     

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    #35
    4-EMC was also a lot less euphoric then mephedrone but also gave me this confused high and morishness feeling but it was a bit more like meph in comparison how 4-MEC felt to me but nothing you want to take more often.

    I wonder how 3-Me-MCat would be like looking at 3-FMC which is quiet nice or how 3-F-4-MMC would be.
     

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    #36
    Bluelighter adder's Avatar
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    3-methylmethcathinone doesn't really compare much to mephedrone. The ratio serotonin:dopamine and serotonin:noradrenaline is greater to serotonin advantage. I mean, while amphetamine or methamphetamine block DAT and NAT strongly and block SERT much less, mephedrone behaves more like its properties for blocking DAT and SERT are closer (not that I'm actually talking about affinity, just ratios). 3-methylmethcathinone is even more of SERT blocker. For some mephedrone fans it may be worthless as they may find mephedrone's ratio perfect. Well, me myself - I don't like all these 3- or 4-substituted cathinones (don't count in bk-MDMA, as it's totally a different thing, not a dirty speedy chemical like mephedrone for me).

    BTW: Christ, I can't really translate "morishness" into my language in one word... It means 'making urge to take more', right (more or less, you know what I mean, you want more after you're done)? I checked a lot of dictionaries and there is no entry for morishness. Where is it from? British, American, Canadian?
     

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    #37
    adder so you mean that 3mmc would be less speedy? maybe similar to methylone?
    yes morishness is right, something like addiction but while using the substance..
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=morish
    (dont know from where it comes from but it's a useful word)
     

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    #38
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    K-guise:
    1. Is part of the ill fate of the beta-ketones the necessity of beginning with methcathinone as a skeleton? Please refer to how 4-fluoro-meth seems way worse than 4-fluoro-amp.
    2. Shouldn't mephedrone already optimize preferential 5ht release (being relatively even for the monoamines, among bk-methcathinones, if we need to guess)? I mean, maybe simultaneous 3 and 4 substitutions would prove even superior (see methylone), but I'm more ignorant of the SAR there. Do we have receptor affinities for various non bk amp analogues?
    3. Why are vendors so fucking fixated on the bk substitution. I mean, really... :P

    ebola

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    #39
    I think that producers likes methcathinone skeleton because the production cost is really cheap, maybe i'm wrong, i'm not so an expert and my english isnt so good, anyway 4-fa is good, but not as good as mephedrone in my opinion, i tryed both and 4-fa is better for the health no comedown, mephedrone was more kicking ass high, but really bad for body and mind.
    I just hope that something changes and that the vendors stop selling all this shit like jgg, mdai, mdat, b2 etc. They are only dangerous because nobody knows what they have inside and they make too much confusion.
     

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    #40
    cathinone is not a stable compound so 4F-C would not work
     

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    #41
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    correct. And the synthetic procedures necessary to produce salts of non n-subbed cathinones with stability necessary to even make it through the synthesis are pretty tough/convoluted.

    Andy

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    #42
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    correct. And the synthetic procedures necessary to produce salts of non n-subbed cathinones with stability necessary to even make it through the synthesis are pretty tough/convoluted.

    Andy

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    #43
    Bluelighter adder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostinshell View Post
    adder so you mean that 3mmc would be less speedy? maybe similar to methylone?
    yes morishness is right, something like addiction but while using the substance..
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=morish
    (dont know from where it comes from but it's a useful word)
    No, not similar to methylone or MDMA at all. It's a different story really.

    Methamphetamine uptakes blocking ratios are as such: NAT : DAT is 1:2.35 and NAT:SERT is 1:44.5 - it's easily seen methamphetamine does very little on SERT compared to DAT, similar ratios are for releasing properties of methamphetamine, but impact on 5HT is even less).

    Mephedrone's ratio NAT:SERT is far better than 1 to 44.5 so serotonin effects are more pronounced and play a much bigger role in subjective effects of drug.

    Now, 3-methylmethcathinone is even a better releaser and blocker of SERT to such an extent that dopamine and noradrenaline effects are "interrupted". So you most likely end up with some kind of speedy drug but with dopamine effects overwhelmed by serotonin effects and that means less abuse probability as in the whole series of amphetamines, the reward path is the most important concerning euphoria from any drug. And this also applies to cathinones as they're analogs of amphetamine.

    These aren't my assumptions on activity. For methamphetamine blocking properties, check:
    Rothman, et al. "Amphetamine-Type Central Nervous System Potently than they Release Dopamine and Serotonin."

    I don't have any sources on how modifications at 3. position affect effects but it's widely known that compounds with some substitutent at this position are prone to cause more serotonin in synapses (be it via phosphorylating SERT or acting as a releaser).

    I guess, 4-methylmethcathinone hit the right spot for some and that's why mephedrone was so popular (but its popularity also came from its legality and I guess that's even a more important factor here - teens with no access to amph/meth/coke could buy a real drug legally so the fact it was inferior didn't play such a big role).

    Now, bk-MDMA and MDMA both differ in pharmacodynamics to straight stimulant amphetamines (including cathinones). They release DA, NA, and 5HT, they also act on a couple of receptors that make them entheogens (among others there's 5HT{2A} receptor activated by MDMA), and they cause a lot of hormones release.

    So to recap it all, in terms of pharmacodynamics (as far as we know now, still little is actually known about this compound, subjective effects also add to conclusions a lot) mephedrone is much closer to plain amphetamine than MDMA (well, bk-MDMA and MDMA actions are different also because of different ratios, bk-MDMA is a weaker releaser of serotonin than MDMA, that's why some say it doesn't have that "magic" of MDMA).
    Last edited by adder; 18-11-2010 at 13:21. Reason: correction
     

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    #44
    Bluelighter /navarone/'s Avatar
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    Now why would this be any better than para-methyl/ethyl-methamphetamine?

    1) Less metabolically stable, the keto group would be wuickly converted into a hydroxy.
    2) Still some BBB crossing issues even if far less than methcathinone.
    3) Probably has a much higher serotonergic activity than mephedrone but still the unconvenient effects of most beta-ketos.

    IMO this could turn out to be a riskier mephedrone analogue.

    I wonder why da hell has no beta methoxy analogue ever appeared in the designer drug market.
     

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    #45
    Quote Originally Posted by /navarone/ View Post
    I wonder why da hell has no beta methoxy analogue ever appeared in the designer drug market.
    Come up with a super facile synthesis of beta-methoxy amphetamines and they could appear.
     

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    #46
    adder, you really know a lot of things, i envy you!
     

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    #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Torabora View Post

    The peak with 133u is the ethylbenzoylcation showing that there was a ethylgroup on the ring so it is very likely that it was indeed 4-EMC the other peak at 103u also supports this thesis because of ethyl fragmentation and formation of the benzoylcation (so 3,4dmmc is also very unlikely)

    What I cannot explain is the shoulder on the gc spectra, fragmentation results are very similar:

    Im not a master at reading MS fragmentations so maybe I did a mistake? pls correct me if I got something wrong or if you have different interpretation for the data I obtained.
    A side reaction from one of the most common and cheapest ways to make mephedrone (that I know of) is the formation of the methylated beta-imine (from addition of methylamine to a 4-substituted alpha-bromo acetophenone). The name for the side-product in this case would be 2-(4-Ethylphenyl)-N-methyl-2-(methylimino)ethanamine. Parent fragment should be at 189, which shows up on your spectra. I think the peak at 146 is the (4-Ethylphenyl)(methylimino)methylium fragment, while the 160 peak refers to the 2-(4-Ethylphenyl)-2-(methylimino)ethylium fragment. The conjugated imine makes sense for discoloration of the compound, since it's probably fairly energetic. If this is the case, the shoulder seems a little large and you may have a lot of impurity present, I think the yields for this reaction are usually about 70% with a primary amine.

    edit: First compound is wrong, forgot the alpha-methyl, but the other ones may yet be correct. Therefore, not sure what the 189 peak is
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    Last edited by nuke; 15-11-2010 at 21:43.
     

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    #48
    Bluelighter /navarone/'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by literate View Post
    Come up with a super facile synthesis of beta-methoxy amphetamines and they could appear.
    Well phemetrazine has been synthetized hasn't it? And I'm pretty sure it didn't start with morpholine.
    There is the Williamson ether synthesis that if planned wisely could give good yields.
     

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    #49
    4-methylmethamphetamine is reportedly very hard on the mind. It surfaced in Moscow a few years ago, where it was blamed on several users' suicides.

    As for beta-methoxy amphetamines, idk. The closest report I have found is BOB (beta-methoxy 2cb), from PiHKAL: "For whatever reason, this compound left me in a sociopathic snit. All in all, pretty negative."
     

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    #50
    @nuke yes I think you are right that this could be a impurity I think the shoulder could maybe come from a reaction taking place in the injector (cant remeber on what temp it was set but 200C+ for sure) because such a large ammount of impurities would be very high for something sold as a RC but yes who knows would be very scary though.
     

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