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Conservatives question methadone maintenance (UK)

Someone said Suboxone isn't prescribed... yes it is. My local clinic does it.

Anyway, yeah this is fucked up but would never happen. Just pre election vote gain tactics. As they know that most of people who would disagree with this wouldn't vote conservitive anyway!
 
conservatives question methadone maintnance (UK)

Yes, I am glad that suboxone is a choice. For a while there were only certain Docs. that could offer it, and they could only have a certain number of people on it at one time..that was when it first arrived on the scene, now I understand the meth clinics give ya a choice as to what one works best for you meth or suboxone...all of it is just as fucked up to get off of....but if ya have to be on it for the rest of your time here it is better then the alternative....:|
 
I think buprenorphine is a better choice than Methadone....


I dont want to be misunderstood here. I am 1000% in favor of offering drug treatment. We NEED to offer that. By saying that its not the best medication does not mean that I favor cutting off funding for treatment...Just the opposite. We need to increase funding and make Suboxone a more commonly available option.
 
I feel like with Suboxone becomin so popular and wide spread that methadone is gettin a bad rap. Soooo many people get on sub when they get A-arrested, B-caught by their parents or BF/GF/job, etc, or C-finally decide to give bein sober a shot. Its like sub is seen as the "good" treatment now and methadone is the "bad" outdated treatment.

To be totally honest, I feel like Suboxone aint that effective for certain users. The people who have tried over and over to get clean, the ppl who have OD'd, got arrested over and over, who been caught countless times, who just keep usin--in my experience those ppl dont do good with suboxone. Methadone is a more realistic and helpful option for folks in that position.

If you have only done dope for a year, if you did it for 6 months, if you never shot dope, if you had a short term habit whether it was IV or not, sub will probably work for you. and i aint sayin that it cant work for certain ppl, it all depents on the person them self, there aint no "rules" about it.

Im just sayin, it seems to me like sub aint too effective and dont work too good for the "hardcore" addicts. From ppl ive talked to and known, most of the ppl who had habits that were longer and had been in it for a while and kept on failin, sub just dont do it for them. I feel that way, i started usin when I was 16 and Im 23 now and I just finally got off the shit a few months ago. Sub just didnt do it for me, it was never 'enough' , it could not break thru and make me feel normal no matter the dose that I took, even taking it for a whole week straight without goin back onto dope i still could not do it. but methadone is a god send, like i said before and like lots of other ppl said too, it saved my life.

i aint sayin one is better than the other.

Just that ppl got a habit of fallin in love with the "new thing." Now that suboxone is the "better" treatment, you know how they say its less addictive, less this less that, bla bla bla, you can do it at home, no clinic, aint gonna be associated with "junkie life", etc. it definately gets this "savior" kind of respect from alot of ppl that see it as "methadone, upgraded version."

My point is just that BOTH of them need to stay just as available. Even now i see doctors and rehabs kind of fazing out methadone for suboxone detox. Detoxes if they used medication used to have methadone as a default. Now they are much more common to use suboxone to detox you. It aint a bad thing, Im just sayin, in the medical world ,. in the media and in some users it seems to be like , the next big thing, the drug that will make methadone obsolete, like somehow its better than methadone. And that aint true. they both got their ups and downs but it seems like its losin popularity and i hope it dont get left in the dust by over eager doctors and marketers who want to get on that "future" shit and write off the shit that been workin for the past 50 years.

and i dont think its just gonna disappear, im just sayin, that attitude u showed in ur post above me is the shit I been hearin from alot of ppl who seems to feel that sub is better, but take it from a person who really honestly just needs that heavy duty opiate shit--methadone is just as good, just for a different kind of user. I aint proud of it but I feel like my addiction came from that need to have some serious, heavy duty sedating shit every day, all the time, I dont know why, but sub it just did not fill that hole that was left empty when i didnt do dope. Methadone does. I feel like in a way its a more powerful drug than suboxone (not pound for pound as far as its actual potency but just over all the way that methadone can calm down a feened out junkie whose buggin the fuck out and dopesick, and get them to commit to stayin clean, in ways that suboxone 100% cant.)

Thats just my opinion tho....And if you see this post repeated, its cuz it really made me think, and Ima ask a question like this in OD, I dont want to get too off topic here but i would def. like to hear wat folks got to say about that.
 
Methadone sucks.

I think the government should issue heroin to get people off Methadone. It would be safer and easier to ween people off of and they would actually enjoy it more with less risk. Heroin used to be a medicine you know.


Its all about the stigma...Methadone wasnt the street drug. it wasnt demonized like heroin was....so forget about the science and go with whatever is more acceptable sounding at the time.

Do you honestly think that heroin use is safer than methadone use, keeping in mind 100% of the people on heroin maintinance inject it? The few places there is heroin maintinance (or where it is being studied for possible normalcy I believe), the amount of people that die from overdoses in the program is somewhere around 10% or above I believe. 10% of people on methadone do not die from it. If they did, we'd all be on buprenorphine.
 
I think you mighta confused OD's with deaths Dex. In all the statistics i have EVER read about the heroin maintenance programs, there has not been one single death reported. The overdose figure was like 11% i believe IIRC, and they were all dealt with quickly and safely becuz of the nurses and EMTs always near by while the users did their shots, and all the OD's was able to avoid death.

I cant speak for users who died outside of the program while at home after usin EXTRA dope on top of their monitored doses, becuz Im sure some of them kicked the bucket but Im sayin as far as ppl that was stayin in line with the program, I dont remember hearin of any deaths of people who were followin the rules as prescribed. I could definately be wrong but that is the memory that I got from all the readin I done about the subject so far.

Anyways, if any of yall want to discuss the use of methadone vs. suboxone come join our thread in Other Drugs ;)
 
You see, the main problem (aside from this subject being from the dark ages) is that most people simply refuse to accept personal responsibility for anything. Fucking retards.

I agree. Tax dollars shouldn't be put towards this. Get clean on your own and pay your own way. Should taxpayers really suffer because someone made some bad decisions?
 
Dextermeth,

I'm not doubting you but I found one thing you said strange. Is it really true that 10% or above overdose while on heroin maintenance? I mean if they are on this, they are using pure pharm grade heroin and injecting it in a 'clean' room so to speak, correct? In a safe environment? Or do these places just give the heroin to addicts and let them use wherever they want?

I know in Norway for example, they have 'clean' rooms where addicts only need bring their heroin and have access to syringes,etc.. and inject in a safe room and there have been no overdoses in these rooms and such.
 
You see, the main problem (aside from this subject being from the dark ages) is that most people simply refuse to accept personal responsibility for anything. Fucking retards.

I'm doubtful of this. Personal responsibility is associated with free will - and addiction could be said to be the loss of free will. Besides there are many other illnesses, accidents etc that in some way people bring on themselves.
 
First of all , this aint the place to post that info anyways, but second of all, no heavy long term opiate user will be detoxing with kratom. Its a pretty weak plant compound that is a irregular kind of opiate , not a full agonist , it is somethin that ppl who dont got much of a habit might benefit from, but if you got any type of addiction to somethin like heroin or methadone, I dont think you should waste your time tryna mess with that shit. You would have to eat huuuuuuuuge amounts of powder, Im talkin like measuring cups full and i doubt even then it would do anything for you. I dont know give it a try if you want but u need to discuss that shit in the right forum, it dont belong in this article, Im just letting u know.
 
I agree. Tax dollars shouldn't be put towards this. Get clean on your own and pay your own way. Should taxpayers really suffer because someone made some bad decisions?

Taxpayers pay more money when people with drug problems commit crimes and get locked up and put a strain on the system. Anyways, you could say the same arguement for welfare and all forms of public assistance, should they get rid of that too? No...its in the best interest of the government and the community to have programs like this that offers aid, you do realize that in the US at least, it aint like its some kind of government handout program....You can get methadone "from the government" thru Medicaid at clinics that take insurance and many clinics accepts medicaid. thats a government program but it aint like your taxes is directly gettin put aside specifically to buy methadone for people. Anyways you would be payin much more taxes to cover that junkie in jail. Is the cost of over $35,000 a year per inmate and thats only at the cheap prisons better than payin like $3,000 a year per client at the clinic (And thats assuming its one of them expensive 50 dollar a week clinics--the actual cost of methadone is mad cheap, my pills is about $17 every 2 weeks so its like $35 a month which would be under 500 a year. If you so worried about payin your money and taxes on somebody "who made a bad decision" and its a whole lot more complex than that, I think its only the logical thing to support care and treatment svc's for addicts to get to them before they get locked up than waste at least ten times that amount to keep em locked up. Its simple logic yo, u want to look at this emotionaly with all that "oh why should i have to pay for a bad decision" shit, or u want to look at it in the simple straight forward & logical way which clearly shows u which one is better for your wallet?
 
Do you honestly think that heroin use is safer than methadone use, keeping in mind 100% of the people on heroin maintinance inject it? The few places there is heroin maintinance (or where it is being studied for possible normalcy I believe), the amount of people that die from overdoses in the program is somewhere around 10% or above I believe. 10% of people on methadone do not die from it. If they did, we'd all be on buprenorphine.


I was thinking that the government would administer an oral opiate.....heroin isnt that bioavailable, but I assume that if you get the dosage right it could work.....I guess that would be problematic if you prescribe an oral dose that is high enough to match their IV dose...that is definitely not a good idea outside of clinical supervision.

Do you have sources to support the claim that 10% of people who are on that maintenance program die? I am not calling you a liar, but I would like to confirm that. It seems high.....why would a higher % die from clinical IV use than from street IV use?...unless the clinic sucked and they didnt know what they were doing.


I have heard from some users that the WDs can be harsher and longer lasting on Methadone than on heroin, and that it requires an even smaller reduction in dosage to get WD effects compared to heroin, and it still doesnt give you as much euphoria despite comparable if not worse addictive potential...I see that as a major drawback...but I have never been on a methadone program, so I could be way off base and not know it. I am parroting what others who I trust have told me.


Are there any other opiods or opiates that stop the WDs?
 
I think you mighta confused OD's with deaths Dex. In all the statistics i have EVER read about the heroin maintenance programs, there has not been one single death reported. The overdose figure was like 11% i believe IIRC, and they were all dealt with quickly and safely becuz of the nurses and EMTs always near by while the users did their shots, and all the OD's was able to avoid death.

I cant speak for users who died outside of the program while at home after usin EXTRA dope on top of their monitored doses, becuz Im sure some of them kicked the bucket but Im sayin as far as ppl that was stayin in line with the program, I dont remember hearin of any deaths of people who were followin the rules as prescribed. I could definately be wrong but that is the memory that I got from all the readin I done about the subject so far.

Anyways, if any of yall want to discuss the use of methadone vs. suboxone come join our thread in Other Drugs ;)


Yeah, this sounds about right. That is part of why I think that a heroin based program can be effective when administered in a closed clinical setting....though I can see the advantages of Methadone for outpatient recovery, if it has stronger affinity yet weaker effects.....Does Methadone help prevent overdose because of this or make it more likely?


Sorry, I wont threadjack anymore.


Anyway, I strongly support supporting these programs, even with Methadone...though I would support a heroin based program at least for those who are under close supervision as inpatient patients.
 
First of all , this aint the place to post that info anyways, but second of all, no heavy long term opiate user will be detoxing with kratom. Its a pretty weak plant compound that is a irregular kind of opiate , not a full agonist , it is somethin that ppl who dont got much of a habit might benefit from, but if you got any type of addiction to somethin like heroin or methadone, I dont think you should waste your time tryna mess with that shit. You would have to eat huuuuuuuuge amounts of powder, Im talkin like measuring cups full and i doubt even then it would do anything for you. I dont know give it a try if you want but u need to discuss that shit in the right forum, it dont belong in this article, Im just letting u know.

Kratom is actually more powerful than heroin "by weight", or at least the pure active chemicals are...You can get 96% Kratom (alkaloids?) from oversees pretty easily if you buy in bulk....I have no idea how well it would work at high doses for long term high dose addictions, but I do know that there is a much smaller amount of cross tolerance than you would expect.....it might be worth researching anyway.
 
^^way back a few years ago after I had quit dope for a lil while and was just startin to do it more again I was barely even havin a habit, I mean I would be able to make a bundle last 2 days. like some serious, baby habit shit, and I tried usin kratom to detox and it kinda helped at real high doses, Im talkin like 6 tablespoons of that shit at a time to dose anything that would do shit at all. It was barely somethin that was effective at a extremely low habit, so there aint no way that it would even begin to touch somebody with a actual habit. I aint sayin it aint worth lookin at but that you would be downing like measuring cups full of powder and most likely your tolerance would be too high for it to work. even if it aint got much of a cross tolerance I feel like the more subtle highs that ppl who aint regular users get alot out of, are usually completely useless to more experienced fulltime users so IDK. i would be interested to see somebody try tho but I was jus speakin frmo my experience which was that it wasnt too strong at all on a extremely barely-there habit so I got to be realistic and doubt that it would be worth tryin for a regular solid habit, but who knows like i said..It would be interestin to see somebody try .
 
Lacey is very right.

Methadone is supplied in a standardized by pharmaceutical companies. 70 mg will be 70 mg every time.

Kratom is not at all standardized. Some vendors claim to sell "standardized" extract, but there are no regulations on it. So you're stuck with leaf powder which may or may not do something depending on the batch and whatnot.

Sounds like a great detox idea.
 
One capsule of pure Kratom Alkaloid is probably like 10 measuring cups full of Kratom....I may be exaggerating a bit, but its actually some extremely potent stuff 'by weight'.

Crude Kratom herb might not be good for anything beyond a mild pill addiction, but I think that a concentrated extract.....not like a x15 extract, but like pure alkaloids made in a lab....It might show promise. You would just have to dose pretty high, and using crude herbs wont cut it.


This is not a 'definitive source' but Wikipedia says.

Dry kratom leaf contains roughly 0.25% mitragynine. A typical dose ranges from 15 mg to 65 mg.

So taking 4 1000mg capsules would be 268x a threshold dose in an opiate naive person.....probably would do SOMETHING in an heroin user, wouldnt you think?


You would have to take 400x as much leaf to = what you would be getting in a capsule of pure alkaloids.....but I think we should be aiming for full spectrum rather than single chemical.
 
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Plants never have a consistent alkaloid content. That's why the typical dose ranges from 15 mg to 65 mg. That's a horrible margin.

You also have no guarantee that what you're getting from any of these "ethnobotanical vendors" is what they say it is.

Kratom's a joke. Might be good for when you're sick one day, but in terms of leading a functional life, forget it.
 
What about a pharmaceutical grade extract, or standardized full spectrum concentrate produced by a lab?

You understand that I was NOT talking about using crude herb to treat patients, right?
 
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