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Bupe Overdosing on Opiates While on Suboxone

I was going to post this out, but I give up for now. I don't think that the assumption of the above mentioned breakthrough is correct. I don't think bupe can get knocked off, only to come to knock off the H later.
 
Im not sure about decreasing toxicity

but I know that taking additional opiates while on suboxone is a horrible Idea

the reason for this is because Suboxone blocks the effects of opiates taken traditionally..... taking more and more opiates will INCREASE withdrawals. rather than getting high you will keep coming down and eventually you will be experiencing withdrawal symptons while your body is acctually loaded near overdose

dont do it
 
You can definitely OD on suboxone alone if you don't have a tolerance, it happened to a friend our first time and he only took 1-2mg up the nose
 
I'm been taking IV sub ~3mg/day for a while. Yesteraday i shot 60mg oxycodone and it barely touched me. I could feel it for max. 5min and then it was gone.

IME taking any other opioids while on buprenorphine is a huge waste of money. This is big enough reason on it's own why it should never be done.,
 
Im not sure about decreasing toxicity

but I know that taking additional opiates while on suboxone is a horrible Idea

the reason for this is because Suboxone blocks the effects of opiates taken traditionally..... taking more and more opiates will INCREASE withdrawals. rather than getting high you will keep coming down and eventually you will be experiencing withdrawal symptons while your body is acctually loaded near overdose

dont do it

This is NOT CORRECT AT ALL - if refering to opiate only substances - mixures in pills can still be dangerous

How could suboxone choose what effects to turn off and what to turn on? It can't. If it blocks the site, the other opiates are NOT ACTIVE, thus you can't overdose on them.

You can take an infinite amount of opiates on top of suboxone and you will never put yourself into withdrawal. The rule goes you can take dope after subs, but not subs after dope.'

The reason for the withdrawals in the first place is because if a person usually needs 100 receptors filled to be high, and takes 100 receptors worth of heroin, then takes 100 receptors worth of bupe, the bupe which has a higher affinity will bump the H off the receptor site, and bind to it. This would lead to 100 receptors filled with bupe, however since bupe isn't a full agonist, for purposes of this example, we will pretend that only 50 receptors are active. The other 50 are filled, but not active. Since you need to have 100 receptors filled, but now only have 50, you will not get high. If you go into withdrawals anytime when you have 60 or lower receptors filled, then you will go into withdrawal. However, if you went into withdrawal any number of 40 or lower, at this dose, even though you are kicking out the H for bupe, you will just be less high, however, you will NOT be in withdrawal.

It would take a great deal of opiates to cause liver damage. So if the other opiates arn't binded to the receptor sites, then they will just float around, and then be eliminated, a person's body is NOT loaded up near overdose.

However, if the sub were to wear off, while there was still a sufficient amount of h in the bloodstream, then you may have that take over, and could have an overdose. (For example you have 100 receptors full of suboxone, you need 100 fill to get high, and you take 110 worth of H while on bupe. If the bupe wore off completely while all 110 worth of H was still around, you would be 100+ receptors, and potential overdose area).
 
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This is NOT CORRECT AT ALL.

How could suboxone choose what effects to turn off and what to turn on? It can't. If it blocks the site, the other opiates are NOT ACTIVE, thus you can't overdose on them.

You can take an infinite amount of opiates on top of suboxone and you will never put yourself into withdrawal. The rule goes you can take dope after subs, but not subs after dope.'

The reason for the withdrawals in the first place is because if a person usually needs 100 receptors filled to be high, and takes 100 receptors worth of heroin, then takes 100 receptors worth of bupe, the bupe which has a higher affinity will bump the H off the receptor site, and bind to it. This would lead to 100 receptors filled with bupe, however since bupe isn't a full agonist, for purposes of this example, we will pretend that only 50 receptors are active. The other 50 are filled, but not active. Since you need to have 100 receptors filled, but now only have 50, you will not get high. If you go into withdrawals anytime when you have 60 or lower receptors filled, then you will go into withdrawal. However, if you went into withdrawal any number of 40 or lower, at this dose, even though you are kicking out the H for bupe, you will just be less high, however, you will NOT be in withdrawal.

It would take a great deal of opiates to cause liver damage. So if the other opiates arn't binded to the receptor sites, then they will just float around, and then be eliminated, a person's body is NOT loaded up near overdose.

However, if the sub were to wear off, while there was still a sufficient amount of h in the bloodstream, then you may have that take over, and could have an overdose. (For example you have 100 receptors full of suboxone, you need 100 fill to get high, and you take 110 worth of H while on bupe. If the bupe wore off completely while all 110 worth of H was still around, you would be 100+ receptors, and potential overdose area).

I think you misuderstood what I was saying.. I DO know what im talking about when it comes to suboxone

when I say you can "overdose" while on suboxone im not talking about heroin.. I have no experience with that personally

I was speaking more to the pill addicts that have the risk of taking WAY to much APAP while trying to get "high" while taking suboxone

suboxone blocks you from getting high.. therefor no matter how much opiate you ingest its not gonna do shit.... but the APAP in your system is still eating away your liver like a locust.

I guess I shoulda been more clear on that point

sorry
 
suboxone blocks you from getting high.. therefor no matter how much opiate you ingest its not gonna do shit.... but the APAP in your system is still eating away your liver like a locust.

I guess I shoulda been more clear on that point

sorry

That's more clear, but still incorrect.

Suboxone doesn't block you from getting high. You can get high on many drugs while on Suboxone, and if you are on a low enough dose of Suboxone, you can also get high on full agonist opiates.

Suboxone doesn't effectively "block" you from getting high on other opiates, and would only really do that unless you are taking a relatively high dose.

I have used heroin, oxycodone, and hydromorphone while on Suboxone, got high on each one individually, while on Suboxone. So, no, Suboxone did not block me from getting high. I don't take a huge dose of it either. For people that do take 8mg, 16mg, 24mg, or 32mg per day, I wouldn't be surprised if you find taking full agonist opiates on Suboxone to be a waste. That is a pretty large amount of Suboxone.

Both Suboxone and Methadone can have a "blockade" effect, but that effect is dose-dependent meaning if you take < 1mg of buprenorphine, or < 10mg of methadone, you will surely be able to get high on full agonist opiates. And, if you take > 8mg of buprenorphine, or > 80mg of methadone, it is unlikely you will get high on full agonist opiates.
 
Is it harder or the same to overdose on Suboxone? For instance I've never took more than about 120mg of oxycodone in one sitting (up zee nose). Though If Im on about 4mg of Suboxone steadily and I have a high tolerance to that, would it be harder to OD on Oxycodone due to the fact that I am I suboxone or would that not make a difference to the toxicity of Oxycodone? Thanks cheers!;)

Are you trying to overdose or are you trying to get high?


If you're trying to get high, it's not necessarily that you won't feel it if you do more than normal, you might get a few effects, but it's going to feel like it's lacking something and you'll wish you'd have waited. If you don't take any sub for a day and wait until you're hurting, it'll feel a lot better! This still might be a little difficult in just a days time if you've been taking 4mg everyday for a while.
 
I was going to post this out, but I give up for now. I don't think that the assumption of the above mentioned breakthrough is correct. I don't think bupe can get knocked off, only to come to knock off the H later.

You may be right, that's why I said I don't know for sure. The way I understand it is that bupe that has been present on the receptors for quite a while is more likely to let something like heroin knock it off.

I shouldn't have even said anything about this because I don't know if I'm right or not. I remember reading something about it before, but it's been so long, so I can try finding the article I read when I get back from vacation. Until then, everyone should just assume that the post regarding heroin knocking bupe off then the bupe knocking the heroin off is pure speculation.
 
I would just like to add something interesting, as this was the first time I experienced this unique situation. I will make this short and sweet because it's late and I have been sniffing white and opana all night and am extremely tired

About 2 weeks ago I dosed around 2mg of suboxone intranasally. I was in withdrawal so I was sure I wasnt going to precipitate it, and I was right. 10 minutes later, I dosed approximately 20mg of oxymorphone intranasally also. Immediately I felt the opana set in and started feeling so much better. Within a minute to a minute and a half, all my w/d symptoms were gone and I was high. Then, about 1-2 minutes after that, I literally felt the bupe unseat the oxymorphone and I went into the usual, fucking terrible p/w's.

Normally when I go into p/w's from subs, it lasts for an hour. I have precipitated w/d numerous times from suboxone. This time, the p/w lasted no more than 10 minutes, and as soon as it passed I felt high from the opana. Not as high as when I first snorted it, but high none-the-less and much relief that the p/w's were over. The high was much, much shorter than normal thus after.

I just wanted to add this as my first hand experience. It might shed some light on this topic. I am learning new things regarding full-agonists and partial agonists/antagonists (bupe) from my experiences all the time. I will try to post more of my thoughts on this tomorrow when I am well rested and in a better frame of mind.
 
this seems incredibly dangerous, like some previously said, since subs will "counter" the effect of oxy. It seems like it would certainly be harder to gauge how much is your limit.
 
ha, for some reason this thread reminded me of a blog post by that SuBoxDoc guy regarding different viewpoints on who is a greater success in the eyes of the treatment community: a recovering addict on suboxone or a recovering addict who is "clean" by the traditional standards (not using any substances, attending na, etc.). i actually enjoyed the post, so you might want to check it out for an interesting discussion of the topic. anyway, the part relevant here says:

Which of the following outcomes should a treatment center prefer? Patient A leaves treatment totally free of all substances after 30 days of a 30-day program. He enters a halfway house and leaves after 90 days, still clean. After six months he stops attending meetings. Three months later his friend from his home town pays him a visit, and after drinking a few beers and taking a couple 80’s for old time’s sake he dies in his sleep. Patient B leaves treatment after 21 of 30 days and against the counselors’ advice finds a doc who prescribes buprenorphine. After a month on buprenorphine he takes a couple 80’s with an old friend, and doesn’t feel anything from taking them. The next month he takes an extra buprenorphine tab every now and then, so that he runs out early. He doesn’t call his doc, and instead gets sick for a day or two at the end of the month. He even takes some methadone to ‘treat’ the withdrawal, but it doesn’t really do anything. After four months he has talked to his doc about these things several times, and is starting to get used to—and enjoy–not feeling high. At eight months an old friend visits and gives him a couple 80’s. He knows that they won’t do anything, so he passes on them. Or maybe he is having a rough day and he gives in one last time—but they don’t do anything.

Reading that implies that someone on suboxone could take 2 80s, not feel anything, and live, while the same person, if clean in the traditional sense, would overdose. Obviously all kinds of factors could play into this (e.g., tolerance would be at baseline in the "clean" person not in the person on maintenance), and it's just a hypothetical, but it implies to me at least that there is much less of a chance of overdose while on sub than not, which I think gives credence to the idea that as long as the buprenorphine is binding to the receptors, then it will be much more difficult to overdose. anyway, it doesn't specifically state that, so don't go out and shoot 900 mgs of ocy or anything bc you're on sub, but it sounds to me that the SubOxDoc is saying that overdose would be harder while on maintenance. i don't know how this would translate to lower doses, etc., but i just thought it was interesting anyway and somewhat related to the topic.

Here's the link btw: http://suboxonetalkzone.com/page/2/?p=aeogpnfoqlufgv
it's the second post on the page
 
you can overdose on suboxone alone in the aspect that you can make yourself sick because the opiate effects of the suboxone are too strong for you too handle.

but....if you are taking suboxone alone, you dont have to worry about dying from an overdose.....you just might have to worry about some vomit and a few hours of hell.
 
I created an account just to reply to this post because as far as my understanding goes I have seen nothing that fits with how I have been told opiates a bupe works. Taking the two (opiates and subs) together will increase your risk of CNS(Central nervious System depression and OD(Overdose) even though you may not get high. The reason this is as I understand it is as follows. Subs to create some CNS effects, not as much as say morphine but enough that users with no tolerance can get into trouble. There is more than one type of opiate receptor in your body/brain, and they are located in different places in your body (for example there some in your bowels which is why opiates make you constipated but no amount of binding to the receptors in your bowels will make you OD or get high another place they are in abundance is the spinal cord which won't get you high necessarily but can effect you CNS). So some of the opiate receptors in your brain are the kind that will get you high but not all of them are, some of them won't produce much of a high but can still cause other effects like CNS depression. Also Subs have a ceiling a dose at which they simply will not bind to any more receptors (it's usually between 16mg and 32mg). Okay so here's how an OD on subs and morphine would work. You take a ceiling does of the Subs and it binds to all the pleasure causing receptors in your brain and spine because those are the ones it likes best and it cause some, but in no way a fatal amount of CNS depression. Then you shoot a bunch of morphine but not enough that you would OD if it was just morphine but close. The morphine will move along to the receptors in your brain that cause pleasure, because it likes those best aswell, but they are all full of the subs. However not all your receptors are full even with a ceiling does of subs in your system just all the ones that will get you high. So the morphine will move along to the other types of receptors give it can't get the ones it likes and bind to them, they don't make you high so you don't feel the morphine. They do cause CNS depression though. So as the morphine binds with the lame, no high, receptors your breathing slows, now your breathing is already being slowed somewhat by the subs on the receptors that we love, the get you high ones. So your breathing stops and you OD without ever getting high. This is actually a really dangerous thing because people will keep taking morphine trying to break through the subs and thinking they are safe because they think the fact that they aren't getting high so the morphine isn't working but the fact of the matter is just because they aren't getting high doesn't mean it isn't working while in fact its just working on the receptors that doesn't get you high and the ones in your spine that don't get you high either.

TL;DR It's easier to OD mixing Opiates and Subs than taking them separately even if you don't get high. You can OD on opiate without ever getting high if your on Subs because subs never block all your opiate receptors just the ones that get you high. Read the whole thing to find out how this works.
 
Overdosing on opioids is definitely possible while on Suboxone.

However, whether or not it's 'easier to OD' will probably vary. I think that depends on just how determined a person is to get high. For example, if someone takes their usual dose of an opioid, it will probably be blocked by the Suboxone. If they decide not to pursue the high then it's all good, but if they attempt to use massive doses to break through the Suboxone – I think they'll have a better chance of OD'ing. But there are a lot of factors that come into play.

Here's my theory (based on someone taking a maintenance dose):
Suboxone alone when administered to a tolerant user probably has a very low overdose incidence. Now, when someone takes Suboxone everyday invariably their tolerance will go up. However because buprenorphine is only a partial agonist it isn't as positively reinforcing as a full agonist it makes it easier to start to taper (usually). Anyway, when a person gets down to a lower dose I'd say that they're more at risk for an OD because over time and when tapering with Suboxone their tolerance is going to gradually decrease. It's the same idea as the time period after detoxing from opioids, where the risk of overdose increases by 2900% or something in that area. In other words, with a lower tolerance overdose risk increases if you were to return to your old "usual" dose.

Secondly, I think that when using Suboxone and trying to use other opioids at the same time the subjectively lessened effect makes it more likely for a person to take more. While they may not notice anything (as in opioids attaching in the brain) these opioids will probably still attach themselves to the other receptors around the body, causing complications. And when the opioids finally do break through the Suboxone, they break through in a BIG way. It's like going from feeling fine to comatose, probably because how big doses need to be to break through buprenorphine. I've almost OD'ed myself while trying to use heroin after using Suboxone. I had done a few shots earlier, with little effect, then later I did a substantially larger shot. Shortly after injecting I got a really bad histamine reaction and then had to throw up (and I've NEVER thrown up when using). I ended up passing out on the floor of my room. I woke up like 3-hours later, but damn I was freaked out. The biggest contributing factor to an overdose like this most likely doesn't have anything to do with the combination of effects, but the large doses required to achieve a high.
 
I am on my second dose of 8mg of Suboxone. I ceased a regular 0.5 g H habit 19 hrs before the first suboxone. I experienced a background night of the soul a few hours back. Anyone who has done cold turkey will know that feeling. On H it hits you 30 to 40 hours after fial dose and thereafter clarity slowly but surely returns. My question? I hate this suboxone normalcy and would love the poison out of my blood. Will I experience more WDs if I refrain from more Subs. I have 16mgs in reserve. I am in a distant land with no access to opiates.
 
I used to mix subutex or tramadol w dope / oxys - it felt much easier to break through and catch a nod that way , very dangerous though , i caught a mean seizure while on tramadol. For me the use of the synthetics was just a way to hold off wd's and would allow me to use and feel that old feeling again, eventually tolerance caught up with those also though and the kick fuckin sucked since i was using 12-16mg of subutex my tolerance was high anyway. Not a fun road , be safe.
 
Ok, first off everything in this quote is incorrect. Bupe doesn't selectively block effects. It either blocks the effects of other opioids or it doesn't. However it does NOT block the euphoria yet somehow manage to not block things like respiratory depression. You have to realize that when an opioid binds to a receptor, it causes its effects (euphoria, respiratory depressions etc). If the bupe blocks the other opioid from binding, then the other opioid will obviously not exert an effect. If however the bupe does not block the other opioid, then it will exert ALL of its effects.


Now I want to try to offer an explanation which may explain how bupe could actually add to the effects when taking another opioid. Note that Im not sure that this is what happens, but it is a possible explanation.

Lets just assume you have 1000 mu receptors (I know that is a ridiculously low number but lets just assume this for now to make things easy).
Now lets imagine you take a low dose of bupe (1mg). Now lets say that at this dose, bupe does not saturate your receptors and only binds to 200 receptors.

Now lets imagine you take 80mg of oxy. Lets also assume that at this dose, oxy also doesnt saturate your receptors and will bind to 600 of them.
So, if you were to take the bupe and oxy together, you would have 600 receptors which are totally agonized from the oxy, and 200 partially agonized from the partial agonist (bupe).
Now, if you were just to have taken the oxy, you would only have agonized 600 receptors, which in theory would create less of an effect then if you took both the oxy and bupe.

Now, if you had taken a large dose of bupe that occupies almost all of your receptors, that would leave very few unoccupied receptors for oxy to bind to if you were to try to take it on top of the bupe, and thus the oxy would exert almost no effect.


So, I know that the scenario I laid out is extremely simplified, but I think it may explain how it could be possible for low doses of bupe to actually cause an additive effect when taken with a full agonist.
What do you guys think?-DG

That is exactly how i was about to explain it because i know from experience however i read through saw yours so i didnt have too
 
Also wanted to note that in case others are gonna keep posting saying it is a waste to do opoids while on suboxone please read others posts first because the general consensus for most people is that on a small does of suboxone you can still get high on your opoid and in most cases you dont have to take a crazy high amount to do so i think also that being on a higher dose of sub you cant get high without a crazy high amount.
which i would think less that 1-2 mg's depending on tolerance,ROA, etc. you can get high on opiods but a therepuetic dose of around 8-32 mgs you wont effectively be able to break through and get high
 
32 mgs is no longer endorsed by the FDA. They issued a letter earlier this year showing 16mgs green light 24 mgs yellow light 32 mg red light. This was told to me by my doctor. I will see if I can find evidence to post. 32 is waay to f'ing high anyway.
 
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