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    Sunifiram (DM235), structurally novel AMPAkine 
    #1
    Has anybody assayed the effect of sunifiram (1-benzoyl-4-propionylpiperazine) in man?

    I'm interested in studies, medical trials and curious nibbling, this relatively novel member of a new class of AMPAkine agents based on a piperazine backbone, which is by weight, extremely potent, what I would like to know though is, how effective it is in practise, as of course potency doesn't nescessarily equal usefulness in vivo.

    I shall be undertaking the synthesis and testing of a small quantity (1g), of sunifiram, (it is at present time completely unscheduled in my country and to the best of my knowledge, anywhere else in the world, and some time in the future, quote possibly a whole series of its homologs, during the coming week in the case of DM235 itself, and in the case of experimentation, when my crappy special needs govt. income permits me to save a little funding.

    I'l report back as soon as I have begun testing, as I am currently almost going under with a cognitive impairment of a memory consolidation, short term/working memory, attention span, motivation and spatial awareness kind, so hopefully the project will prove successful in reversing, or attenuating, maybe if I'm lucky even improving from my pre-onset of impairment baseline cognition.

    Of particular interest to me are reports of:

    Pharmacokinetics

    Side effects

    subjective and objective effects

    Duration of action

    TOLERANCE

    Any persistence of cognitive enhancement or induced deficit in cognitive processes remaining post-administration for a significant time, as I have read any and every paper pertaining to AMPAkines, inhibitors of AMPA desensitisation or similar that I have been able to lay my grubby little lab-rat paws upon, well most of them at any rate, given I still have a fair few downloaded and yet to read, I am itching to start the practical work, but that doesn't mean I can't cram in every last snippet of already extant research work on DM235 that I can get in the meantime.
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    #2
    Oh yes, please report if you have tried the material.
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    #3
    ^not asking for a lot then

    Well yeah would be interested also but such trip reports if not already out are probably either not going to be out (for a reason, well guarded secret/not wanting to cause frenzy/ generally secretiveness etC) if people want to publish they generally do.
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    #4
    sounds interesting, looking forward to the report
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    #5
    Pigs have my glassware at the moment, I got set up for growing herb (which I wasn't doing, but you know what they are like, those fuckers like to string one along for as long as possible, so the project is delayed but not off)

    Cunts.
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    #6
    Anyone's got their hands on Sunifiram and tried it yet? It really shouldn't be that hard to synthesize. I am really interested in this drug, because it's supposed to be 1000 times more potent than piracetam.
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    #7
    Bluelighter tweex's Avatar
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    I've used Sunifiram several times.

    At doses around 15mg it is mildly euphoric, fairly stimulating and very pro-cognitive. Decreased reaction time, increased forward digit span, increased motivation and increased concentration.

    Blows d-amphetamine out of the water as a study aid.

    The downside is tolerance builds fast, and it is anxiogenic. I stack with Afobazole to remove the anxiety.

    Also a few people have reported persistent headaches after use. I take it with carbamazepine to help prevent excitotoxicity.

    Reminds me of NZT-48 from Limitless more than any other drug thus far, both the good and bad.

    "The flame that burns twice as bright burns only half as long"
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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by tweex View Post
    I stack with Afobazole to remove the anxiety.
    Sorry for the off-topic but I find Afobazole very interesting. Are its anxiolitic effects comparable to benzos? It acts on many different receptors, any other effects worth noting? Does it generate tolerance? Does it produce rebound anxiety once you stop taking it?
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    #9
    Bluelighter tweex's Avatar
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    20mg of Afobazole is comparable to 3mg k-pin, IMO. It does not seem to generate tolerance or rebound anxiety.
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    #10
    I tried to use Sunifiram everyday for nootropic purposes, but the day after I felt very tired. Perhaps it was unrelated with the drug.
    Yesterday I used it while snorting some Fentanyl to fight respiratory depresion and it works wonderfully, no more than 10 mg needed.
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    #11
    the tiredness is related to sunifram, i have spent the past week doing 5-10mg/dose 3 times daily.. some insomnia noted, but the next day has been 100x as horrible as usual, waking up is impossible. other people have noted on longecity that it dramatically interferes with sleep cycles and that maybe even once a day 5mg, or even every other day 5mg (1-2x that day) may be most ideal. this past week has been very peculiar however, i have spent time learning and relearning concepts i have usually blown off(socioeconomics, public speaking, stock trading) instead of my typical chemistry readings..

    Its definitely peculiar but TREAD CAREFULLY! it is not a cure all, it is not 'nzt'. remember the analogy of gassing and using a broken engine, it only temporarily makes the engine run at a respectable rate, overtaxing will lead to burnout quickly..
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    #12
    What is 'NZT'?
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    #13
    Bluelighter bob_arctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Limpet_Chicken View Post
    What is 'NZT'?
    A fictional, high-powered nootropic drug in a crappy movie called Limitless. Seems to have become a cultural point of reference for many who previously weren't conscious of any research in the nootropic area. (and also the gold standard of what a True Nootropic could do)
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    #14
    Bluelight Crew ebola?'s Avatar
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    A fictional, high-powered nootropic drug in a crappy movie called Limitless.
    For a more interesting fictional compound in a good movie (and an even better book), people should look to A Scanner Darkly (as I'm sure the above poster knows).

    ebola
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    #15
    Yeah I've tested this compound.

    TLDR this is a very strong nootropic and it should be approached with a lot more caution than racetams.

    It was pretty dramatically awesome in its nootropic effect at first. Truly felt like a massive advancement beyond the racetams.

    It was like all the prosocial, motivating, focus, and mood boost effects of low/moderate dose amphetamine but with zero stimulation, and with genuine strong nootropic benefits on top of that. Lots of sensory enhancement, vision was more detailed and vibrant. It felt like my brain was super fresh and healthy and young. It blows racetams out of the water. More than once I noted to keep careful mindfulness of my condition since it seemed to resemble low-grade hypomania.

    It worked awesome for about 3 days. The amphetamine-like effects pooped out after that, but nootropic effects remained. Then after a week or so, a lot of shitty side effects began. I had a nearly constant low-grade headache, my sleep was totally out of whack (I would fall asleep like a rock, and my sleep app confirmed this showing abnormally long periods of very deep sleep, with ZERO rem sleep or lighter stages), but then I would wake up feeling dead like I hadn't slept at all.

    I started getting brain fogged and irritable, my short term memory took a hit. I would feel overwhelmed by just too much mental workings, sounds sort of felt jarringly loud. I would get overwhelmed and fatigued and felt the need to take short 20 minute "recharge" periods every couple hours where I would lie down in the dark and go in to a sort of focused zen state to let my mind settle. This "zen" was almost a natural default state on sunifiram; I described the feeling of sunifiram elsewhere as "It's like I'm forced to meditate all the time, and this just gets to be too much to cope with." All this while I was playing around with choline supplements and other nootropics trying to recapture the original glory.

    I took a break from sunifiram for a couple weeks, then went back to it to see if the tolerance went away. The only effect I got was depression, brain fog, irritability, and a headache.

    I still hold out a little bit of hope, there's people over on Longecity who seem to have made this one a daily staple without problems, including the legendary Isochroma who if I recall correctly has stabilized on insane dosages of ~100mg/day and still praises it. (I was taking 5-15)

    I think suspect sunifiram is incredibly sensitive to the other pharmacological factors going on in your body, and you cant really combine it willy nilly with everything like you can with racetams.

    I think if I were to go back to it I would do it with a clean slate of no other nootropics or drugs (including caffeine), and make sure to put in the effort to keep healthy "cognitive habits" while taking it. It's a little scary to think that maybe this drug is massively increasing your neuroplasticity, so then what if I fuck up in some way and accidentally hard-wire undesirable pathways in my brain?
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    #16
    Very, very interesting. I really need to revive this project. Although it sounds like it may be best only occasionally rather than daily.

    I wonder how it might stack with something like memantine, to deal with theoretical excitotoxicity.
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    #17
    Yeah I also considered that exact combination. On the sunifiram thread at longecity there's people stacking it with all sorts of neuroprotective stuff (dha, citicoline, magnesium l-threonate, theanine).

    On the topic of NMDA antagonists in conjunction with sunifiram, Isochroma experimented a bit with methoxetamine and found that sunifiram completely blocked any dissociative effect or cognitive impairment from 80 mg MXE taken without tolerance, but still produced a dramatic delayed afterglow "reset" type effect. There's speculation that a course of an NDMA antagonist may be the proper cure for those people who have suffered persisting neurological problems after sunifiram exposure (this is a problem that seems to arise when sunifiram is taken with stimulant-type nootropics such as phenylpiracetam or modafinil, or with other strong stimulants). So memantine may be a good prophylactic measure to keep sunifiram tolerance at bay and prevent undesirable neurological changes.

    One very interesting point that Isochroma made, after his experience with the methoxetamine, is that with nootropics as strong as sunifiram, it is possible that they may strongly block the effects of general anesthesia used in hospitals. So what if someone needs emergency surgery, but they cannot be knocked out due to ampakines in their brain? :/

    Regardless, I think it's fascinating how the nootropic technology is advancing like this. Coluracetam should be a good one, I have high hopes that it will be more sustainable/tolerable than sunifiram.
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    #18
    Bluelighter tweex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isobob View Post
    One very interesting point that Isochroma made, after his experience with the methoxetamine, is that with nootropics as strong as sunifiram, it is possible that they may strongly block the effects of general anesthesia used in hospitals. So what if someone needs emergency surgery, but they cannot be knocked out due to ampakines in their brain? :/
    Spinal anesthesia, or in the case of a craniotomy, local anesthesia.
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    #19
    Is it just a stronger version of aniracetam or does it have new properties?

    Quote Originally Posted by isobob View Post
    TLDR this is a very strong nootropic and it should be approached with a lot more caution than racetams.

    It was pretty dramatically awesome in its nootropic effect at first. Truly felt like a massive advancement beyond the racetams.

    It was like all the prosocial, motivating, focus, and mood boost effects of low/moderate dose amphetamine but with zero stimulation, and with genuine strong nootropic benefits on top of that. Lots of sensory enhancement, vision was more detailed and vibrant. It felt like my brain was super fresh and healthy and young. It blows racetams out of the water. More than once I noted to keep careful mindfulness of my condition since it seemed to resemble low-grade hypomania.

    It worked awesome for about 3 days. The amphetamine-like effects pooped out after that, but nootropic effects remained. Then after a week or so, a lot of shitty side effects began. I had a nearly constant low-grade headache, my sleep was totally out of whack (I would fall asleep like a rock, and my sleep app confirmed this showing abnormally long periods of very deep sleep, with ZERO rem sleep or lighter stages), but then I would wake up feeling dead like I hadn't slept at all.
    Youre right people eating a lot of nootropics make me cringe.

    Just because they can buy a tub of piracetam and eat it for breakfast doesnt mean that you can do roughly the same with say noopept.
    Some guy on another forum ate 100mg, when you read things like that it dawns on you that these people need intelligence increase badly.

    What you write reads a little like noopept to me without headaches or fucked up sleep.
    I use sleep as android too and check what effect drugs have on my sleep, worst so far is phenibut which makes me sleep like dead for 3h periods and then only little movements in between
    Last edited by cpuller; 06-08-2013 at 17:15.
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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by cpuller View Post
    Is it just a stronger version of aniracetam or does it have new properties?
    The new properties that I feel set it apart from racetams is the motivating, mentally energizing, mood boosting "dopaminergic" effects (don't take the quoted word too seriously, though; this is nothing like a normal stimulant). Another thing is sunifiram has a major effect on multitasking that I haven't noticed from racetams. Those first few days, it was like my tasks are organized in some super efficient tree-like data structure in my mind, divided into little subtasks and everything, and I was going about my day finding that I had allocated, effortlessly, exactly enough time to accomplish every little productive thing before moving to the next...

    In addition, the overlapping effects are a lot more intense and higher quality than with aniracetam/pramiracetam. Notably, the vision enhancement, verbal fluency, etc.

    It's pretty different than aniracetam, much more effective (for a short while), but does have some overlap. I'd say it's almost that aniracetam's effect profile is a subset of sunifiram's, except that sunifiram didn't really have the anxiety-killing property of aniracetam (except for indirectly, during those times when it made me feel really cheery and confident)

    Quote Originally Posted by cpuller View Post
    What you write reads a little like noopept to me without headaches or fucked up sleep.
    Meh I never got much from noopept except for a self-conscious awkward feeling in social settings...
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    #21
    I got some sunifiram about a week ago, and once again... disappointed

    Piracetam is one of the few that actually has an effect on me - but just color perception, nothing "useful". I noticed a slight buzz when I first took ~10mg Sunifiram, but nothing since up to 30mg. Last year I got some Noopept from two different sources, and only noticed color enhancement when I took like 500mg at once (literally).

    Maybe I should just eat the whole vial? lol.. I think people over-rate these nootropics.
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    #22
    I would NOT reccommend it. I now plan to buy a little seeing as its commercially available before I clean up all that fucking piperazine.

    Although I'd be surprised if you rated any of those proglutamatergic types, given your opinion of racetams and general love for ket.

    That said, I find pramiracetam handy, but am just about the world's worst dissociative pig.
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    #23
    Quote Originally Posted by isobob View Post
    Yeah I also considered that exact combination. On the sunifiram thread at longecity there's people stacking it with all sorts of neuroprotective stuff (dha, citicoline, magnesium l-threonate, theanine).

    On the topic of NMDA antagonists in conjunction with sunifiram, Isochroma experimented a bit with methoxetamine and found that sunifiram completely blocked any dissociative effect or cognitive impairment from 80 mg MXE taken without tolerance, but still produced a dramatic delayed afterglow "reset" type effect. There's speculation that a course of an NDMA antagonist may be the proper cure for those people who have suffered persisting neurological problems after sunifiram exposure (this is a problem that seems to arise when sunifiram is taken with stimulant-type nootropics such as phenylpiracetam or modafinil, or with other strong stimulants). So memantine may be a good prophylactic measure to keep sunifiram tolerance at bay and prevent undesirable neurological changes.

    One very interesting point that Isochroma made, after his experience with the methoxetamine, is that with nootropics as strong as sunifiram, it is possible that they may strongly block the effects of general anesthesia used in hospitals. So what if someone needs emergency surgery, but they cannot be knocked out due to ampakines in their brain? :/

    Regardless, I think it's fascinating how the nootropic technology is advancing like this. Coluracetam should be a good one, I have high hopes that it will be more sustainable/tolerable than sunifiram.
    Isochroma.. is an interesting comrade.. but his underlying problems and somewhat overzealous combinations can put many in misconception land

    Please note that for most typical general anesthesia operations they use ketamine in combination with propanolol which is a non selective beta blocker. Propanolol itself is very strong when used as a general anesthetic and is enough for the majority of patients.

    The contrast of this is when I had surgery I was given JUST ketamine, no propanolol and I was on sunifram and provigil, many must realize that administered anesthetic levels of drugs are higher dosages in general, as well as the concentration (considered typical anesthesia) achieved for this scenario is MUCH higher than doing ketamine itself. The outcome being the ketamine overpowering the sunifram/modafinil and me coming out of anesthesia very quickly(within 5 minutes to an elevated baseline)

    TLDR: NMDA and friends are NOT the only systems involved in cognition-but do not be afraid of these "racerams", and do NOT dose that high, 100mg sunifram daily is ABSURD. But keep in mind ampakines/racetams/racerams will not stop you from having anesthesia.
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    #24
    Propranolol is a beta blocker, not an anaesthetic, general or otherwise.


    Your thinking of propofol, the GABAergic drug. White milky solution, insanely fast but relatively short onset. Will knock the stuffing out of a bull elephant given a sufficient dose I'd think.
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    #25
    Sunifiram is for me the most usefull racetam I have tried (tried ani, oxi, and noopept). At 10mg SL it gives me energy, focus, and a mood lift.

    Only side effect I have noticed is a very light headache the first couple of times used (which I find with all nootropics)

    It needs to be cycled as it does seem to have diminishing effects if taken daily.
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