Harm Reduction All veins collapsed. Shoot up PRO'S NEEDED.HELP!

[Captain.Heroin]

I would agree with you if Bluelight existed to give everyone what they wanted. It doesn't.

We don't give anyone anything but advice.

We're a harm reduction forum, not a "don't do drugs!"/DARE forum. So if someone asks "How do I do this?" we tend to tell them, even if a lot of precautions and warnings precede the instructions.

Maybe this is just the difference of opinion between someone who doesn't IV and someone who does daily, but it seems like its an awful stretch of "harm reduction" to encourage people to continue to inject when they've collapsed all of their previously usable veins in a period of less than two years. Its only going to lead directly to more collapsed veins and more harm, at least that's how I see it.

We've all encouraged the OP to take a break, to switch ROA's, and to even consider ORT. Her choice is hers, not ours. Whether I say "do or do not inject", odds are, she will still be injecting.

Even if 1000 people all post "don't do it! please stop!" do you think she's going to?

Probably not.

No one has told her "yes it is OK and acceptable, and a good idea to keep doing what you're doing". We've all given her alternatives to IV BTH, she obviously wants to IV BTH, she's even considering IMing it. IM BTH is not the safest route.

If you tell people "stop using" or "don't do drugs!" they'll end up doing things like IMing BTH. That's not harm reduction. That's just telling someone to go fuck themselves because you don't want to help them.

If you don't know how to help them, that's also acceptable to say, and to put in "maybe try Suboxone or methadone, possibly switch to smoking or plugging?" - that's OK.

Telling people "you're going to die", etc, is just a scare tactic. And it isn't scaring anyone who actually injects.

Yes but its not our decision if she is going to continue to IV.

If she tells us she will continue despite what we say, it IS harm reduction to tell her how to do so with the least amount of risk . . .

Exactly.

We've stickied the Case Studies thread, and we have a great IV Complications Mega Thread which goes over the relative risks and possible mistakes people may or may not encounter when injecting.

We also have...

Addicted and need help?
Micron Filtering Mega Thread and FAQ
Community Project - Tapering Plans

Bluelight has a lot of resources dedicated to help people end drug addictions, and they'll always be there, especially for people like the OP.

But what people don't realize, especially about alcohol, tobacco, or heroin users: the relapse rate is somewhere around 75%. This means only 1 in 4 people who even tries to quit will actually stay clean by the 9 months mark.

For the 3 in 4 who will keep using, this is why we have threads like this one.

Some people are content with harming themselves. This isn't OK by any means, but if they'll continue to harm themselves anyways, it's in our best interest (and obviously theirs as well) to minimize the harm being done.

 

[qwe]

i'm not going to tell you to quit, because you probably can't until you're ready

i will tell you, though, to put it up your bum, and just take the suffering of this switch of ROA

if you need your dose to get you high.... take a break for as long as you can handle. then (carefully: most ODs occur after a break because you don't know your tolerance) *plug it in, plug it in*

eventually you could inject again after the veins have some time. but i assume the lesson here, is that you shouldn't inject daily? maybe become a plugger, and just inject on the weekends? i don't know if that is possible with your addiction, just thought. you'd be getting a lot higher though (albeit, less often)

 

[qwe]

i can't wait until the healthcare industry comes out with whatever technology will replace the needle. i assume it'll be something that sends the drug across the skin by way of a gradient (probably pressure mainly i guess) just like star trek's hypospray

maybe the sonoprep?

"Recently, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved a device which uses ultrasonic waves to open pores on the skin, allowing the injection liquid to enter the bloodstream without the use of needles.[10]"

 

[Captain.Heroin]

i'm not going to tell you to quit, because you probably can't until you're ready

i will tell you, though, to put it up your bum, and just take the suffering of this switch of ROA

if you need your dose to get you high.... take a break for as long as you can handle. then (carefully: most ODs occur after a break because you don't know your tolerance) *plug it in, plug it in*

eventually you could inject again after the veins have some time. but i assume the lesson here, is that you shouldn't inject daily? maybe become a plugger, and just inject on the weekends? i don't know if that is possible with your addiction, just thought. you'd be getting a lot higher though (albeit, less often)

You definitely shouldn't inject daily with a 27g or 29g, that's for sure.

Good advice qwe!

i can't wait until the healthcare industry comes out with whatever technology will replace the needle. i assume it'll be something that sends the drug across the skin by way of a gradient (probably pressure mainly i guess) just like star trek's hypospray

maybe the sonoprep?

"Recently, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved a device which uses ultrasonic waves to open pores on the skin, allowing the injection liquid to enter the bloodstream without the use of needles.[10]"

IVing is just too awesome to replace.

What we need are needle exchanges with 31g needles. That's what's missing.

But I like that idea overall, for people with small-ish veins, they'll get lots of benefit out of such an invention!

I'm sure it won't be as cost efficient as current insulin syringes though.

 

[Flexistentialist]

You definitely shouldn't inject daily with a 27g or 29g, that's for sure.

Good advice qwe!



IVing is just too awesome to replace.

What we need are needle exchanges with 31g needles. That's what's missing.

But I like that idea overall, for people with small-ish veins, they'll get lots of benefit out of such an invention!

I'm sure it won't be as cost efficient as current insulin syringes though.

Needle exchanges give out 27g as the standard in most parts of the world, and this doesn't cause any terrible vein problems. We used to stock 29g also, but no one wanted them. I gave out maybe 500 29g ever (over about four years), whereas I was giving out about 15000 27g a month. The reason exchanges don't stock 30g or finer is because most people find them too thin and flimsy, and they can't inject fast enough. The tips barb easily, and they get blocked if you're having trouble finding a vein and the blood coagulates in the tip.

 

[svacheme3]

All I can think of is that you must have been doing something really wrong to run out of every single vein including the neck so quickly. I've been shooting up min. 4, max ~30 on iv coke binges, avg 6-7 times a day for over 6 years, and know several people that have been doing it much longer. The vast majority of my veins are collapsed, but there's just so many of them.
Are you absolutely sure you're out? You can look for veins by feel alone; finding veins that you didn't even know where there by sight alone. There's also the palms of the hand. There's even veins in your fingers, particularly the joints in yours fingers, that you can hit. You might need to go in at 90 degrees and push even farther to hit some deep veins in your arm.
Be creative, there might be veins you can still find.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Needle exchanges give out 27g as the standard in most parts of the world, and this doesn't cause any terrible vein problems. We used to stock 29g also, but no one wanted them. I gave out maybe 500 29g ever (over about four years), whereas I was giving out about 15000 27g a month. The reason exchanges don't stock 30g or finer is because most people find them too thin and flimsy, and they can't inject fast enough. The tips barb easily, and they get blocked if you're having trouble finding a vein and the blood coagulates in the tip.

27g would cause terrible vein problems for people who inject multiple times per day, every day.

I can't believe no one ever wanted 29g's from your exchange. 29g is still too large for me, I only use 31g's.

"too thin and flimsy" - if this is an honest complaint about 29, 30, or 31g needle tips, the injector is going to hurt themselves due to poor technique. No needle should be "flimsy" when going inside your vein. Furthermore, if you go to an exchange, there's no need to re-use needles.

"Can't inject fast enough" - I guess if you have several CC's to pump in your veins...

"Tips barb easily" - if you go to an exchange you shouldn't have to reuse needles.

"Blood coagulates in the tip" - the blood will coagulate anyways. If the blood gets caught that's a GOOD THING. It prevents people from injecting coagulated blood, which can cause a stroke.

 

[Flexistentialist]

^ These are the complaints of the people who use them, and this is the reason for 27g needles in needle exchanges. Several different types of needles were trialled in the early years of needle exchange, and this was the feedback from huge numbers of people. The comment about barbing is not in relation to re-using, people barb them while they're trying to filter and mix up. Also, do you have a reference for the comment that injecting coagulated blood from a needle tip can cause a stroke? I'd like to read that.

27g does not cause terrible vein problems for people who inject multiple times per day. It's only on Bluelight that people act like 27g is a horse needle. In the state where I live we are currently giving out about 4-5 million 27 gauge needles per year, and selling probably the same number again through pharmacies. Across Australia, you could probably multiply that number three times over. This has not caused huge amounts of terrible vein damage.

There are many other variables that contribute to vein damage (eg not using enough water, re-using, poor injecting technique, re-registering, alcoho-wipes used on the site after injecting etc).

 

[Captain.Heroin]

^ These are the complaints of the people who use them, and this is the reason for 27g needles in needle exchanges. Several different types of needles were trialled in the early years of needle exchange, and this was the feedback from huge numbers of people. The comment about barbing is not in relation to re-using, people barb them while they're trying to filter and mix up. Also, do you have a reference for the comment that injecting coagulated blood from a needle tip can cause a stroke? I'd like to read that.

Interesting. It's sad to hear hundreds of IDU's saying such things. No wonder "junkies" have such a bad reputation.

If you barb your needle when you're filtering and mixing up your shot, you're probably shaking way too much from coming down. It's pretty easy to not fuck up the needle tip, you just have to not shake about uncontrollably.

I imagine people coming down from heroin find it hard not to barb their needle tip...which is rather sad.

I don't have a scientific source for "injecting coagulated blood can cause a stroke", but it is well known. Another OD mod (sixpartseven) recited this, and an IDU from Bluelight went over their hospital visit from a stroke. The doctor was unable to tell them the cause of it (they were using a large volume of liquid to IV something that isn't highly soluble in water, the blood lingering in the syringe coagulated, and caused a stroke) - but that's probably because they didn't tell the doctor they were IVing a mass amount of liquid.

I can try to find a link for that discussion for you. So far no luck, but I'll message 6/7 and see if I can find his source.

 

[MaLfUnCtIoN5]

there is nothing i can imagine more frustrating than sitting there with a big old syringe full of smack and not being able to hit a vein to save your proverbial dick.

 

[Theblarneystone]

All the advice is great, but simple my friend who is an licensed EMT has changed me from sitting and stabbing 15+ times (at my worst) before him, and now I never miss more than once, and twice on rare occasions. The tips are, 30+ gauge needles are essential for drug abuse. These take much less damage on your veins. Secondly, the tip that has help me more than anything, is find the bevel (this should go without saying), then stab almost at a 80 degree angle. Once you hit the vein, you will see a tiny blood stream, and then you must even the needle out flat. DO NOT INJECT WITH THE NEEDLE STILL AT THE perpendicular angle. Your just asking for abcess if you do. From here (once you have parallel the rig to your arm, make sure you get a register, and half way through your shot (even if you feel no pain from a miss: and this should be obvious if you do) check for a register again. These tips really have worked wonders for me. I had always heard to inject flat, but to penetrate most veins, especially hiding ones, it takes a poke at least at 70 degree angle. Tell her to try these out, very precisely, and let me know if this works for all. Its almost funny when he is around, I get angry that I'l miss five times and he has never missed one single time on me. Let me know how it goes!

 

[Bob Loblaw]

Wow, really?

He must have collapsed some major veins, am I right?

That's kind of scary. Thanks for that fact Bob!

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=444489

Srsly. No problem

 

[Dankycodone]

Captain that's the link where congulated blood stuck in a syringe was discussed http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=486116

 

[Unlucky]

I would like to share my opinion on this topic even though I dont think Captain Heroin will aprove as he asked we stick to the topic without giving other advice....

If someone who developed mouth cancer from smoking and lost the use of their mouth came in here asking other ways to keep smoking I personally wouldnt suggest they surgically get a hole in their throat so they can keep smoking cigarretes...... Even if I knew the perfect method to help the OP in how to compensate for collapsed veins I wouldnt share it because I want no part in her further damaging her own body when its screaming out for her to stop, so I agree with everyone else here, you have to draw the line somewhere. She's obviously used every inch of her body as dart board and now its time to stop and heal, taking a break is more logical and safer then telling her how to find a loophole around her body's signal for her to quit.

 

[qwe]

well it may be intentionally self destructive for all we know. she's jane doe. we can't know as much about her life as she, and it's the internets, so we just have to witness the suffering. post traumatic internet disorder anyone?

 

[izzy66]

it's the internets, so we just have to witness the suffering.

qft

 

[Captain.Heroin]

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=444489

Srsly. No problem

Thanks for the link, I'm downloading the documentary now. Everyone's comments about it made it seem like a worthwhile watch.

Captain that's the link where congulated blood stuck in a syringe was discussed http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=486116

Thanks for that link man! I thought I was going crazy. I was searching for "coagulated" and not "clotted".

If someone who developed mouth cancer from smoking and lost the use of their mouth came in here asking other ways to keep smoking I personally wouldnt suggest they surgically get a hole in their throat so they can keep smoking cigarretes...... Even if I knew the perfect method to help the OP in how to compensate for collapsed veins I wouldnt share it because I want no part in her further damaging her own body when its screaming out for her to stop, so I agree with everyone else here, you have to draw the line somewhere. She's obviously used every inch of her body as dart board and now its time to stop and heal, taking a break is more logical and safer then telling her how to find a loophole around her body's signal for her to quit.

You can keep smoking tobacco easily after you've developed oral cancer. Sigmund Freud kept on for quite some time, as an example.

It's not like the tobacco smoker will have their mouth amputated and inhalation of tobacco is no longer an option...

Your point is taken well though, listening to the signals your body gives you is most definitely a good sign. I just think the OP doesn't care to act upon those signals, not unaware of them.

When someone is addicted to a drug, they're not going to stop until they want to for themselves. You don't quit using for someone else, it doesn't really work like that. If all it took was every Bluelighter coming in here saying "please stop IVing" for her to do it, then I think she would have already quit by now. In her first post, she made her intentions clear. It wasn't asking "should I keep IVing?" - it was "how do I keep IVing?".

 

[qwe]

i actually don't think listening to your body's signals is necessarily so good.... it's what gets you into addiction in the first place. drugs go right to the heart of how you feel and interpret your "body's signals", the signals themselves

 

[b4rd]

Try to ween your self off for a while. You need to take a break from the shooting dope. Get on suboxone or methadone, and just take a break, work out, get your veins back, and try to control your heroin usage. You may find that your life gets better when you stop getting so goddamn high all the time as well.

I know that's not what you want to hear, but you are killing yourself with your veins like that.

 

[Mafila]

IMO if you're at the point where you can no longer find any veins for IVing then it's time to either get some help or switch to a different ROA. The last thing you'd want is to start IVing in your dick like that British dude who died from withdrawals. That shit makes my nuts shrink just thinking about it.