Ecstasy brain damage?

[bben]

With E it seems to depend on the person and individual biology. I think thats why some people defend it so vehemently and some are convinced it causes so much harm. I myself have been harmed by it alot, but i seem to have a whacky genetic makeup.

Is it so fantastical to think that certain people with abnormal serotonin genes react horribly to it, while those with a perhaps a more normal makeup are fine?

It all comes down to personal biology and dose. Havent they identified that short and long chain SERT transporter genes can predispose people to depression? So maybe only people with the short Sert gene react bad.

I know for a fact that it has horribly effected me. That doesnt mean everyone though.

 

[F1n1shed]

hehe shambles, nicely done but know that some of my posts shouldn't have been worded like that. About the anxiety, I'm just saying from personal experience that all my friends who started rolling around the same time did notice different weed highs when i asked (more anxiety ridden) and some of them suffered from hellish panic attacks like my self only while high though(they are long gone, I battled the anxiety demon). The video i linked clearly shows how anxiety and low serotonin levels relate, I was just trying to show why anxiety and Mdma go hand and hand(for the most part don't deny it). We could debate like this all day long without getting anywhere but i guess like bben said it depends on the individuals biological makeup. I'm just trying to point out that mdma really does have a high chance comparing to other drugs to create a psychological disorder or magnify a current one. I have seen it many times from personal experience and a ton of times from posts on this grand website. Will I continue to roll? probably, but I will have at least 3 month intervals in between and never drop more than 2. Also my friend bought various anti oxidants to preload with so I guess I will really have minimal damage but I'm not denying it isn't there ( cough cough, FELIX!). O yea to answer the question of someones post, the reason i was being aggressive is because bben felix and I have had this debate in other posts as well and I was just a little agitated of the fact that someone is trying to justify their usage so much as to say it does no harm basically. That is not correct.

 

[Woodrowbt]

hmm how am i gonna get it to you guys? I am not talking about abuse. I am talking about moderately using like you guys suggest. At least one month in between. That is not abuse. You will still deal with negatives. Ecstasy is the only drug where you will use it 1 time a month and still notice changes. And as you continue the pattern it will get worse and worse and you will just adjust to the changes. But I'm just trying to point out that it is such a more terrible drug for your brain than 80% of you guys make it. I'm a youngin here and you wouldn't usually see this from someone like me but I'm telling you how it is. Let me put it like this, I have used cannabis for over 3 years and 1 1/2 of those years is daily use of Potent medical grade bud. As for E, id say around 1 1/2 year tops, with a minimum of a month 1/2 in between and never over 3 pills at a time. I had a friend test them before buying them, (don't tell me how do you know your friend tested them, ill smack you silly) and these are pokeballs were talking about. E caused so many more problems in the time I used it moderately with supplements and so on than did weed. I can also differentiate which drug caused what, don't ask how I am a very self aware person as some of you aren't I can see. I've already listed problems E has caused me and I'm not going to do it again but lets say the ration is 1/10th of what weed caused me. So you see I am telling you first hand how the very careful use of mdma caused a lot more harm than the heavy and still heavy use of my pot. See I am not talking about abuse here because any fucking moron knows every drug abused causes problems. E abused though just causes destruction.

I've abused E and didn't have one problem. Cept a hangover that made me a bit fatigue.

Never noticed any side effects over years. I used to do E in the mid 90's to early 00's.

Recently picked up a pipe bomb and had anxiety attacks.

Also smoked weed 1 time and had anxiety attacks.....and had major anxiety for 1 month....felt like i was going insane.

 

[Woodrowbt]

hehe shambles, nicely done but know that some of my posts shouldn't have been worded like that. About the anxiety, I'm just saying from personal experience that all my friends who started rolling around the same time did notice different weed highs when i asked (more anxiety ridden) and some of them suffered from hellish panic attacks like my self only while high though(they are long gone, I battled the anxiety demon). The video i linked clearly shows how anxiety and low serotonin levels relate, I was just trying to show why anxiety and Mdma go hand and hand(for the most part don't deny it). We could debate like this all day long without getting anywhere but i guess like bben said it depends on the individuals biological makeup. I'm just trying to point out that mdma really does have a high chance comparing to other drugs to create a psychological disorder or magnify a current one. I have seen it many times from personal experience and a ton of times from posts on this grand website. Will I continue to roll? probably, but I will have at least 3 month intervals in between and never drop more than 2. Also my friend bought various anti oxidants to preload with so I guess I will really have minimal damage but I'm not denying it isn't there ( cough cough, FELIX!). O yea to answer the question of someones post, the reason i was being aggressive is because bben felix and I have had this debate in other posts as well and I was just a little agitated of the fact that someone is trying to justify their usage so much as to say it does no harm basically. That is not correct.

How do you know the anxiety attacks arent from the anxiogenic drug itself, WEED?

Maybe you should slow down on the weed....its probably inducing the attacks.

 

[Worrgames]

Just some questions for Felix;

How long have you used Ecstasy; how many doses (approximately) would you say you have consumed over this period?

Have you had scenarios in which you had done E more than 1 time in a single month. What is your average "break" period between consumption. What are your experiences with the decline, and regaining of your mental composure after using it, and after taking breaks.

I've read through some of the studies you had linked, and there is some interesting information. I am curious, however; because even after having 6 months off from any use, I still had not completely recovered. I would still experience certain levels of anxiety, "brain fogginess", bouts of depression, and issues with concentration. I also often have trouble retaining information I have learned. At times, I have issues articulating complex though processes without the use of more effort then I had previously had to use. My usage consisted of once or twice a month for the first 4-5 months of use. After that, the time gradually spaced out to every 2 months, than eventually only 2-3 times a year. This all occurred over an approximately 3 year window. My consumption would range from 1-4 pills per night (depending on potency of course), but in most cases 3 pills.

In the paragraph you have highlighted in red from the study by Rick Doblin; the case scenarios of people consuming nearly 800 pills (dwarfing my roughly 115 doses), the solution to cognitive shortcomings was abstaining for 18 months? So essentially, my 6 month break was too short to have recovered from the cognitive effects; and therefore, extending the duration from my last use should yield significant results? I understand scenarios differ from person to person, but I speak in generalities.

I have no intention of doing ecstasy again. I just hope I can regain at least most of my mental composure at some point. Even the knowledge that I will have to wait a year or two improve significantly is almost therapeutic in itself to the hopes that one day I can be somewhat normal again.


Thanks

 

[F1n1shed]

Just some questions for Felix;

How long have you used Ecstasy; how many doses (approximately) would you say you have consumed over this period?

Have you had scenarios in which you had done E more than 1 time in a single month. What is your average "break" period between consumption. What are your experiences with the decline, and regaining of your mental composure after using it, and after taking breaks.

I've read through some of the studies you had linked, and there is some interesting information. I am curious, however; because even after having 6 months off from any use, I still had not completely recovered. I would still experience certain levels of anxiety, "brain fogginess", bouts of depression, and issues with concentration. I also often have trouble retaining information I have learned. At times, I have issues articulating complex though processes without the use of more effort then I had previously had to use. My usage consisted of once or twice a month for the first 4-5 months of use. After that, the time gradually spaced out to every 2 months, than eventually only 2-3 times a year. This all occurred over an approximately 3 year window. My consumption would range from 1-4 pills per night (depending on potency of course), but in most cases 3 pills.

In the paragraph you have highlighted in red from the study by Rick Doblin; the case scenarios of people consuming nearly 800 pills (dwarfing my roughly 115 doses), the solution to cognitive shortcomings was abstaining for 18 months? So essentially, my 6 month break was too short to have recovered from the cognitive effects; and therefore, extending the duration from my last use should yield significant results? I understand scenarios differ from person to person, but I speak in generalities.

I have no intention of doing ecstasy again. I just hope I can regain at least most of my mental composure at some point. Even the knowledge that I will have to wait a year or two improve significantly is almost therapeutic in itself to the hopes that one day I can be somewhat normal again.


Thanks

dont worry pal, you will be normal once again. Have another 6 months off and you should be back to 100% I would think after 6 months i would def be fully better but I've only been off not even 2 months so far.Also i can really relate in articulating complex thoughts with much more effort. As well as concentration issues brain fogginess and all of that sort. They all arise after every time I roll and stay for about the first week and slowly leave but I don't know to what degree. But who knows if you will ever have the full 100% thought process and clarity you once did, just hope for the best.

 

[bben]

I really think some are just genetically susceptible to ecstasys negative effects. It all boils down to personal biology.


But the OP is retarted for making it out as safe. I still doubt he would be willing to take 1000mg of MDMA at once, like some do. Of course if its so safe he shouldnt mind.

 

[Woodrowbt]

I really think some are just genetically susceptible to ecstasys negative effects. It all boils down to personal biology.


But the OP is retarted for making it out as safe. I still doubt he would be willing to take 1000mg of MDMA at once, like some do. Of course if its so safe he shouldnt mind.

No one is saying that you can't OD. I'm sure 1g isnt near enough to OD though. I'm sure just like with all drugs the higher level of MDMA the higher risk of the side effects. Such as over heating/hypothermia/seizures.


No one said it is completely safe. Especially not safe enough to get completely careless about it.


But it sure the hell isn't as dangerous as most people make it out to be.

 

[Shambles]

hehe shambles, nicely done...

Glad you approved - mucho copypasta in there

Partly pulling yer plonker and playing Devil's Advocate, but the stuff about not projecting your experience onto others and the "trying to justify their usage" kinda stuff I strongly disagree with.

My experience of MDMA is the polar opposite to many others' here from what I've seen and for every study and article you can point to that suggests a problematic experience is somehow more... "real?" "true? "honest?" "valid?"... can't find the right word (must be all that brain damage MDMA left me with ) than my own or those that I know of just seems a bit rich really. I could just as well say you must all be in denial, that all your problems existed before MDMA use and point to studies and articles to back that up too. But I wouldn't cos it's just not the case - those of us with no hint of a problem don't make it up to "justify our use" any more than those who have had issues are making it up to please the prohibitionists.

Just seemed to me that some folks here were essentially doing the same thing that Felix is accused of. Both extremes came over as being statements of Absolute Truth rather than personal experience, observation and opinion to me. Whether those that are convinced that major toxicity is irrefutable fact or not, Felix did at least post links to back up his position for people to check out for themselves. I for one would be interested to see more evidence suggesting serious damage cos the study Damien posted is one of the few human studies I've seen recently and was unaware of. My opinion is firm but far from fixed - knowledge is power so the more information the better for us all

Just some questions for Felix;

I'm not Felix and I'm sure he'll reply himself but as I'm also one of those who leans more towards the "yet to be convinced" camp I'll give my answers for anyone to read, disbelieve, dispute or ignore as they wish. The answers are not even remotely HR-friendly - as far from HR as it gets - but they're honest and I wasn't always the HR-friendly fella I am today. To state the obvious, excess and recklessness is not big, not clever and generally doesn't end well. I am well aware I am the exception rather than the rule here. In a big way

NSFW:

How long have you used Ecstasy; how many doses (approximately) would you say you have consumed over this period?

Used for 18 years now. Doses consumed? I could barely begin to even hazard a guess and the honest answer won't go down too well... but as an example, during one 2-3 year period I used up to 3.5g of MDMA crystal pretty much every week - mostly on the weekends but the odd weekday too if the fancy took me.

Have you had scenarios in which you had done E more than 1 time in a single month. What is your average "break" period between consumption. What are your experiences with the decline, and regaining of your mental composure after using it, and after taking breaks.

As noted, there were many months (and years) when dosing 2-3 days per week was more the average. Other times I've gone weeks or sometimes months and the odd year here and there between use - currently a little over a year since last use.

Decline and regain of mental composure? Before ever using I was an anxious and depressed mess with a whole range of pretty major emotional issues and mental health problems - with various failed treatments over the years. Prolonged and extensive MDMA use (along with a vast array of other self-medications but with psychedelics being the other catalyst) is what I attribute with giving me the tools I needed to create my current relatively stable mental state.

I've read through some of the studies you had linked, and there is some interesting information. I am curious, however; because even after having 6 months off from any use, I still had not completely recovered. I would still experience certain levels of anxiety, "brain fogginess", bouts of depression, and issues with concentration. I also often have trouble retaining information I have learned. At times, I have issues articulating complex though processes without the use of more effort then I had previously had to use. My usage consisted of once or twice a month for the first 4-5 months of use. After that, the time gradually spaced out to every 2 months, than eventually only 2-3 times a year. This all occurred over an approximately 3 year window. My consumption would range from 1-4 pills per night (depending on potency of course), but in most cases 3 pills.

As noted, my experience is pretty much the opposite - shocking levels of use over many years with no negative consequences noted and a wealth of positive changes.

I hardly need to say that I'm not for a second suggesting my use was anything but insanely excessive by all "normal" standards and none of the above was intended to glorify extremely dangerous usage or mentioned to wave my big ol' E-cock about the place cos I have no need to. It's purely a statement of fact and to illustrate the point that heavy use doesn't automatically mean inescapable and irreparable brain damage and that perhaps for some there are possible reasons for such use. I'm not disputing that it can do - and undoubtedly has done - harm to some but that doesn't make it so for everybody.

I see my use as a mixture of much needed self-medication of sorts, self-destructive tendencies on a grand scale (which kinda backfired I suppose) and sheer, unadulterated, reckless hedonism with no thought, care or concern whatsoever for any possible consequences.

Just to make it crystal clear - I am absolutely not saying that heavy use of MDMA is safe at all. I listened to my body and mind and did what I did - but my body and mind are not yours. Listen to your own cos it often knows best

And of course, all of this is very much my experience and opinion and nothing more.

 

[floyd68]

Hi everyone, So many factors to take into consideration, however after 23 years of using ecstacy, initially (MDA AND MDEA) Yes I personally will conclude that MDMA abuse over a period of time will impact on one's physical and mental health. For some of us older crew, this shit is only just coming to the surface. Dont get me wrong I love this substance, but at one point in my life, it felt like, it took all the love I own. First time post, Best wishes to everyone for 2010

 

[Shambles]

Interesting and good to hear from a fellow old geezer :D

Any chance you could you maybe give a few more details of the problems you are only recently noticing? And maybe an idea of previous frequency of dosing, kinda amounts used, anything done to try to minimise damage and the like? I ask cos I may very well be in a similar boat and have a nasty surprise lurking around the corner myself along with a number of us more elderly users and also good for da yoofs amongst us to hear from others with plenty years of use to get an idea too - more info the better

Either way, welcome to BL

 

[monkyfunky]

I really think some are just genetically susceptible to ecstasys negative effects. It all boils down to personal biology.

I have heard that a deficiency in a certain enzyme, which is relatively common, could lead to increased brain damage

 

[Shambles]

CYP2D6? It's discussed here

More in the linky but...

It has been previously believed that the CYP2D6 liver enzyme may be at least partially responsible for some individuals' unusually strong reaction to MDMA. Although a small percentage of users seem to react with extreme sensitivity to MDMA and experience overly strong effects at normal doses, there is mounting evidence that CYP2D6 does not play a critical role in sensitivity or adverse reactions...

While it is still possible that low CYP2D6 levels could shift risks slightly, this appears to be a minor or potentially irrelevant issue. Several other related enzymes are implicated in MDMA's metabolism and it is more likely that some other enzyme, system, interaction, or behaviour is responsible for most variations in reactions to this chemical.

It is important to note that the issue is not yet completely resolved and additional human pharamcokinetic research may be able to answer some of the outstanding questions. Detailed work in Spain, by de la Torre et al, showing higher levels of DHMA than previously thought may indicate that CYP2D6 is more important than the above analysis would suggest.

 

[eLW]

lol, wanted to read this thread then i realized it will take hours :D

 

[monkyfunky]

CYP2D6? It's discussed here

More in the linky but...

That's the one. Knew I count on you Shambles

I remember one of my mates tried mdma twice, and even low doses were way to much for him to handle.

 

[felix77]

Just some questions for Felix;

How long have you used Ecstasy; how many doses (approximately) would you say you have consumed over this period?

Have you had scenarios in which you had done E more than 1 time in a single month. What is your average "break" period between consumption. What are your experiences with the decline, and regaining of your mental composure after using it, and after taking breaks.

I've read through some of the studies you had linked, and there is some interesting information. I am curious, however; because even after having 6 months off from any use, I still had not completely recovered. I would still experience certain levels of anxiety, "brain fogginess", bouts of depression, and issues with concentration. I also often have trouble retaining information I have learned. At times, I have issues articulating complex though processes without the use of more effort then I had previously had to use. My usage consisted of once or twice a month for the first 4-5 months of use. After that, the time gradually spaced out to every 2 months, than eventually only 2-3 times a year. This all occurred over an approximately 3 year window. My consumption would range from 1-4 pills per night (depending on potency of course), but in most cases 3 pills.

In the paragraph you have highlighted in red from the study by Rick Doblin; the case scenarios of people consuming nearly 800 pills (dwarfing my roughly 115 doses), the solution to cognitive shortcomings was abstaining for 18 months? So essentially, my 6 month break was too short to have recovered from the cognitive effects; and therefore, extending the duration from my last use should yield significant results? I understand scenarios differ from person to person, but I speak in generalities.

I have no intention of doing ecstasy again. I just hope I can regain at least most of my mental composure at some point. Even the knowledge that I will have to wait a year or two improve significantly is almost therapeutic in itself to the hopes that one day I can be somewhat normal again.


Thanks

First off, I am sorry to hear you have negative effects. I do hope they clear up quickly.

I was always a light user, 7 times in 3 years and I haven't had pill in about 7 years. Never with in a few month period and my doses were always double stack. I'm sure the last one I had was adultered or MDA because it lacked heavy empathy and love. That was in 2002. I took a white Rolex I got in Geneva a couple months back but that was not MD any thing, I bought a test kit for my next go round.

I had a good circle of friends in the army that got me on to it. Some were heavy users for a while. A couple started getting watched when they started becoming candy ravers. We failed more then one drug test but the NCO in charge hid the evidence apparently, Captain must have been aware.

One of my friends used heavy MDMA, he also used whippits and any other thing that was going around. He did get a bit fuzzy. If you watch scrubs, the frat boy on the new episodes is a good physical match and his mannerisms aren't far off. My friend used a lot of similar slang but is much less of a douchebag.

He started having a bit of a rough time, but he was partying a lot. He quite when he got sent to Korean duty and is going to retire a Sgt. First class in a few years. I have never asked him if he feels any negative effects from his party days, but he is intelligent and successful so I'm assuming his fuzziness and emotional issues passed.

I hope it goes better for you, I'd follow Shambles advice if you eve do ecstasy again. Try and use only tested crystal and do not over use it.

 

[felix77]

Neurotoxic thioether adducts of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine identified in human urine after ecstasy ingestion.
Perfetti X, O'Mathúna B, Pizarro N, Cuyàs E, Khymenets O, Almeida B, Pellegrini M, Pichini S, Lau SS, Monks TJ, Farré M, Pascual JA, Joglar J, de la Torre R.

Human Pharmacology and Clinical Neurosciences Research Group, Institut Municipal d'Investigació Mèdica-Hospital del Mar, Dr. Aiguader 88, Barcelona, Spain 08003.
3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, Ecstasy) is a widely misused synthetic amphetamine derivative and a serotonergic neurotoxicant in animal models and possibly humans. The underlying mechanism of neurotoxicity involves the formation of reactive oxygen species although their source remains unclear. It has been postulated that MDMA-induced neurotoxicity is mediated via the formation of bioreactive metabolites. In particular, the primary catechol metabolites, 3,4-dihydroxymethamphetamine (HHMA) and 3,4-dihydroxyamphetamine (HHA), subsequently cause the formation of glutathione and N-acetylcysteine conjugates, which retain the ability to redox cycle and are serotonergic neurotoxicants in rats. Although the presence of such metabolites has been recently demonstrated in rat brain microdialysate, their formation in humans has not been reported. The present study describes the detection of 5-(N-acetylcystein-S-yl)-3,4-dihydroxymethamphetamine (N-Ac-5-Cys-HHMA) and 5-(N-acetylcystein-S-yl)-3,4-dihydroxyamphetamine (N-Ac-5-Cys-HHA) in human urine of 15 recreational users of MDMA (1.5 mg/kg) in a controlled setting. The results reveal that in the first 4 h after MDMA ingestion approximately 0.002% of the administered dose was recovered as thioether adducts. Genetic polymorphisms in CYP2D6 and catechol-O-methyltransferase expression, the combination of which are major determinants of steady-state levels of HHMA and 4-hydroxy-3-methoxyamphetamine, probably explain the interindividual variability seen in the recovery of N-Ac-5-Cys-HHMA and N-Ac-5-Cys-HHA. In summary, the formation of neurotoxic thioether adducts of MDMA has been demonstrated for the first time in humans. The findings lend weight to the hypothesis that the bioactivation of MDMA to neurotoxic metabolites is a relevant pathway to neurotoxicity in humans.

Damien: That would be stronger evidence for neurotoxicity then I have read before. What does that translate to for actual brain effects and is it permanent?

A lot of things are neurotoxic that we consume on a regular basis, the word certainly sounds scarier then it probably should be. Until we are sure I'll take my vitamin C and magnesium before doses. Any other known preventatives out there?

 

[Damien]

What does that translate to for actual brain effects and is it permanent?

I have no clue lol. That's why I was saying that doesn't disprove what you're saying, I just thought it interesting.

 

[tek75]

I am an ex-user who used heavily on a weekly basis over approximately 2 years. It took over a year of weekly abuse to start noticing problems with sleep problems, impaired cognitive ability (especially concentration and learning ability), bad anxiety, social phobia, memory problems and moderate HPPD. (but no depression)

I have stopped using altogether for 4 YEARS and can tell you that most of my problems still remain, the anxiety is better to some extent but concentration and learning ability is still as bad as it was 4 years ago.
I never had these problems previously maybe a little shy in my teen years.

I start to think the damage is permanent but only time will tell.

As a poster mentioned a while ago it depends on an individual's biological make up and heavy use will magnify latent psychological issues (such as shyness possibly, as in my case)

I haven't read every post in this thread but it will be interesting to hear from someone who has solely abused more purer forms of ecstasy (such as crystal mdma) rather than pressed pills to balance the discussion.

I'm not completely convinced that mdma may have caused all my problems but the interactions will chemicals in the adulterants of pressed pills (especially amphetamine) with each other and mdma would more likely potentiate the long term side effects?

This only my opinion but i imagine the main adulterant in pills between 2001 - 2005 was speed / amphetamine, maybe the speed and mdma combo is more neurotoxic then mdma / mda alone?

I feel it could be a potential timebomb with newer research chemicals such as mephedrone,methylone, BZP etc in the mix as adulterants, these reactions with mdma could be more severe.

Felix please consider the users on this board who have had bad experiences and take it on board before it is (possibly) too late for you. I would hate you to go through the same long term effects and suffering i have gone through in the last 4 years. (and some of my friends)
Not all people suffer serious psychological issues but there is a good chance you will eventually suffer negative consequences from your use.

I must also point out this board alone and no where else on the internet made me decide to cut down my use in 2003 and that was solely from the posts from people who had negative experiences. I could of been in a much worse situation mentally if i had not quit when i did and this is probably the same for many other people.
This is a harm reduction board and a very valuable tool in times where ignorance and flawed scientific studies (such as those mentioned by Felix) will erode the truth seeked by all.

With much misinformation circulating the internet, genuine personal experiences reported by joe public may prove more valuable until scientific studies become more accurate.

 

[Shambles]

^ Thanks for the info. Good to see some more plain and simple subjective experience reports coming in. It's the big MDMA mystery that's still a genuine mystery to me so I'm finding this all kinda fascinating myself. Hope the symptoms you note ease with time - body and mind are resilient and have a way of bouncing back even if it takes 'em a while sometimes

I haven't read every post in this thread but it will be interesting to hear from someone who has solely abused more purer forms of ecstasy (such as crystal mdma) rather than pressed pills to balance the discussion.

That would be mine so far but it's a long way from being representative and I'd really love to see more of them myself. Not 100% crystal all the way but the vast majority - maybe 20-30 pressed pills over 20-odd years and the rest all crystal. And good crystal at that... wherever that went

PS: Why do you say the studies Felix posted are flawed? They may well be but I've not looked at them yet myself so have no opinion. So much research is deeply flawed that that's a major part of the problem I have with any of it being cited as definite proof of anything - we don't all inject multiple grams concurrent with vast amounts of caffeine, or direct to the brain, or repeatedly dose back to back and so on so what do those studies really prove, I wonder?