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Ecstasy brain damage?

To answer some of the previous questions, I made this thread because a moderator demanded proof.

In the I'm scared thread and in one before. I responded that ecstasy doesn't cause brain damage and isn't proven neurotoxic. That may be a bit of an overstatement. I should have said that there is not strong evidence that MDMA causes brain damage to date. But with all the propaganda people are exposed to and all the people claiming ecstasy causes brain damage with out any evidence, I don't think my statement was relatively over he top.

I made this thread to provide the evidence, of course, my peer reviewed evidence is crap. I was asked repeatedly to provide more. No counter evidence was provided so I'm not sure how I am supposed to form an argument when there is nothing to depute other then what some one thinks.

I do think ecstasy should be used in moderation. Some people may have bad effects, however, it is unacceptable to blame ecstasy for problems that heavy users have. You would first have to show that they did no other drugs. I know club druggers, you won't find that to be the truth.

You can not say, ecstasy causes brain damage. You can say you believe, just like I think it doesn't. Saying ecstasy causes brain damage is as bad as my blanket statement that it doesn't. Hiding a lie behind harm reduction is still hiding a lie.
 
Being safe isn't bad.

I do agree with your statements though. Not that it doesnt do any brain damage what so ever, but that it hasnt been proven.

From my experiences all ive ever gotten from good MDMA that was negative was a little tired the next 2-3 days.......same with everyone i ever did it with.
 
How come you didn't address the toxic metabolites found in the urine of people who had taken MDMA?

Not saying that this disproves what you're saying but I just thought it was interesting that you didn't address the studies.
 
Damien said:
How come you didn't address the toxic metabolites found in the urine of people who had taken MDMA?

Not saying that this disproves what you're saying but I just thought it was interesting that you didn't address the studies.
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I actually haven't read that post yet. I have homework to do and I cooked dinner after work. I am only reading some of the most recent posts on my breaks.
 
hahah right on. Sorry, being a bit pushy there. lol. :)
 
Woodrowbt said:
Exactly. For all we know the problems brought to us by the users of this forum could be from adulterants.

So far studies with only mdma has found little negatives.

Who is to say that everyone bringing issues to us on this forum have taken only MDMA and not adulterated pills?



I dunno.....food for thought.
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Spot on correct mate.

In fact I agree with all your thoughts pretty much perfectly.



My problems with felix are that he spouts his thoughts as factual when they are not factual but indeed simply his opinions.

If he used the words In my opinion then i would support much of what he says.

Of course he doesnt though and then carries on about marijuana and those nasty hippies and really that just shows where he is really coming from so he loses all credibility.

If you follow my posts you should be aware that i will jump on anyone who trys to claim facts when they are not factual.

This is very important because we dont want people coming in here in the future and reading Felixs posts and believing them as fact when they are noit...........if he simply uses the IMO then all is sweet.


I dont often state my exact position on topics such as these but instead try to ensure there is balanced argument.

So if someone comes in here and starts raving that mdma causes massive brain damage and we are all gunna produce babies with 3 heads then i will argue against them and point out how many thousands of people are able to use for years and years without problems.

But I will also argue against the person claiming its all perfect and harmless.


If posters go away from here prepared to understand that there are few certainties then thats a good thing.

The last thing I want is a poster leaving here believing that mdma is perfectly harmless or vice versa.
 
felix77 said:
To answer some of the previous questions, I made this thread because a moderator demanded proof.

In the I'm scared thread and in one before. I responded that ecstasy doesn't cause brain damage and isn't proven neurotoxic. That may be a bit of an overstatement. I should have said that there is not strong evidence that MDMA causes brain damage to date.
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Your second par is the reason for the first par.

Thanks for being honest...........thats all anyone ever wanted.
 
Maybe i'm wrong, but I don't see one post in here where felix claims fiction as fact.

From his words it sounds like he was just proving people who claim MDMA causes super brain damage wrong.

I don't see one post that says "Hey it doesn't cause brain damage!".

The entire post seems based off his opinion, based off the studies he has posted.
 
I dont know about you guys but i have read through felix's posts and straight up... he is just trying to justify his use. He loses credibility because he does not have a mind of his own. He only tries to read though studies that support his ideas thats all there is to it. Once he finds something he likes he makes it full proof 100% that it is correct and tries to change the mind of others. He reads that marijuana is more harmful than E and then makes it full proof and says it causes more cognitive damage and causes mental disorders. Both have potential but MDMA is much more likely to than marijauna. I mean are you fucking serious?? you need to be slapped silly a few times. Felix all i say is get your head way out of your ass and realize it is not your little wonder drug with no brain damaging qualities and no neurotoxicty. If you want a drug with the least amount of damage on your brain ( none ) then go smoke pot. The thing is pot doesn't just throw all these nice feelings at you like E, that's because E is making a drastic chemical reaction in your brain in a very unnatural way forcing all the serotonin neurotransmitters to release. WIth that you know how the damage is caused. Excess dopamine will enter serotonin receptors, serotonin axon terminals will be destroyed or shriveled and more. There is damage being done and yes it is exaggerated, but do NOT try to hide from it.
 
One more thing, I live in the US where things are strict, and i can walk down 2 streets and smoke pot at a club medically. That's because they have found no lasting damage with pot and it is able to be used long term medically with basically very minor side effects. You think this would be possible if pot caused psychosis and as much cognitive problems as you say it does? NO, once again get your head out of your ass. I don't like people disrespecting pot with stupid statements. Do you know why pot is the most widely used drug, its because everyone knows it doesn't do shit to you, no hang over or comedown, no lasting damage ( minor memory problems that aren't very noticeable), no physical addiction, pretty much VERY minor things. The only way you really get any negatives from pot is when you abuse it (me) but it still is SO minor and subtle.
 
I don't agree with you F1n1shed. I do infact agree with Felix's posts. I believe that there isnt any proof of brain damage, but there could be some unfound damage.

I dont think pot is wonderful though.....it gave me crazy anxiety for 1month after i smoked it. Pot is nasty to me...

We all have opinions...


I believe USA will make any drug that has the potential for popular recreational use illegal... (USA sucks ass in terms ofwasting money on failed drug wars, or our civil war) So no i don't believe that thats why pot is on the verge of being legal....i believe to many people smoke it and are pushing for legalization.
 
Cannabis can and does cause problems including psychosis... or does it just bring out underlying problems including psychosis?

MDMA can and does cause problems including long term depressive states... or does it just bring out underlying problems including long term depressive states?

Which is cause and which is effect? There's evidence for either or both being true in both cases so why is the MDMA research suggesting it's the cause true cos it agrees with what you believe and the cannabis research that suggest cannabis is the cause clearly false cos it disagrees with what you believe?

Just wondering...

I'd say no drug is without risks - especially when abused - and that includes cannabis.
 
Shambles said:
Cannabis can and does cause problems including psychosis... or does it just bring out underlying problems including psychosis?

MDMA can and does cause problems including long term depressive states... or does it just bring out underlying problems including long term depressive states?

Which is cause and which is effect? There's evidence for either or both being true in both cases so why is the MDMA research suggesting it's the cause true cos it agrees with what you believe and the cannabis research that suggest cannabis is the cause clearly false cos it disagrees with what you believe?

Just wondering...

I'd say no drug is without risks - especially when abused - and that includes cannabis.
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because.. It is the fact of how powerful the drug is. Cannabis can bring out underlying problems like psychosis if you were predisposed otherwise extremely low chance. MDMA CAN AND WILL CAUSE problems like anxiety is a huge one. I have read countless posts where E user's suffered from anxiety attacks including my self. I already linked the video where it showed anxiety is related to low levels of serotonin. EVERYONE HAS LOW LEVELS OF SEROTONIN AFTER ROLLING. Hence many people get anxiety and some deal with it better. Also if you have never felt this sort of anxiety you are bound to have a panick attack from it. I can take your guys counters all day, fact of the matter MDMA is truly a brain banging drug. Not only that you will be in a forced depressive state because your brain is robbed of its feel good chemical serotonin, and then you have to feel like shit and wait until your serotonin stores slowly recover. Even with moderation its doing nasty nasty in your brain. I have read countless studies and have personal experience from responsible use with preloading and post loading.

Also haven't you guys ever noticed all these posts of people crying about how ecstasy damaged their brain, changed them, made them a zombie, and caused so many complications with them. You don't really see posts like HELP COCAINE really damaged my brain. You may see it gives me chest pains or problems people are facing with addiction. But when ever someone posts about E its solely on how it damaged their brain beyond repair. Keep debating with me please.
 
Shambles said:
Cannabis can and does cause problems including psychosis... or does it just bring out underlying problems including psychosis?

MDMA can and does cause problems including long term depressive states... or does it just bring out underlying problems including long term depressive states?

Which is cause and which is effect? There's evidence for either or both being true in both cases so why is the MDMA research suggesting it's the cause true cos it agrees with what you believe and the cannabis research that suggest cannabis is the cause clearly false cos it disagrees with what you believe?

Just wondering...

I'd say no drug is without risks - especially when abused - and that includes cannabis.
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Excellent post.

I have seen first hand the mess that canabis can make of people. Its a drug I would never agree to being made legal. BUT thats simply based on what i have witnessed throughout my life and is hardly scientific.

While I personally, like Shambles, dont ever seem to have any either short or long term problems with mdma, the facts are that i read almost daily in here about people who claim they do.

I cant discount them completely although I will generally try and make them think deeper about what they believe.

As Shambles has pointed out............No drug is safe when abused..........in fact there is not much in life that is safe when abused.
 
F1n1shed said:
One more thing, I live in the US where things are strict, and i can walk down 2 streets and smoke pot at a club medically. That's because they have found no lasting damage with pot and it is able to be used long term medically with basically very minor side effects. You think this would be possible if pot caused psychosis and as much cognitive problems as you say it does? NO, once again get your head out of your ass. I don't like people disrespecting pot with stupid statements. Do you know why pot is the most widely used drug, its because everyone knows it doesn't do shit to you, no hang over or comedown, no lasting damage ( minor memory problems that aren't very noticeable), no physical addiction, pretty much VERY minor things. The only way you really get any negatives from pot is when you abuse it (me) but it still is SO minor and subtle.
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i don't know why you are so angry..why not calm down..your accusing him of being biased but you are illustrating that you are too, just in the opposite direction!
I know a boy, who use to be popular, intelligent and social, smoked too much weed and became schizophrenic and is literally just a shell of what he was, he is mad, like thinks his cat is talking to him and sending him messages, wont talk in social situations, cant work and its just the saddest thing to see. So weed does cause problems too...on the other hand i havent known anyone to suffer from long term damage directly from mdma...but thats just my personal experience...
I think its unfair for everyone to jump down Felix's argument, he is putting his point across with scientific research, responding in an angry manner maybe undermines your own intelligence and if you offered factual evidence it might be more of a balanced thread.
i'm not saying MDMA can't be harmful, but so is everything (even stuff like skittles), you can't expect to abuse something and be fine but i generally agree with felix that the effects are minimal if not abused to silly amounts and is evidently backed by scientific evidence ( http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article6899534.ece ) As i've said before i really think that often someone who has cained a drug is going through a shit mental time MDMA is used as a scapegoat despite not knowing if this shit time would have happened with or without it..
 
hmm how am i gonna get it to you guys? I am not talking about abuse. I am talking about moderately using like you guys suggest. At least one month in between. That is not abuse. You will still deal with negatives. Ecstasy is the only drug where you will use it 1 time a month and still notice changes. And as you continue the pattern it will get worse and worse and you will just adjust to the changes. But I'm just trying to point out that it is such a more terrible drug for your brain than 80% of you guys make it. I'm a youngin here and you wouldn't usually see this from someone like me but I'm telling you how it is. Let me put it like this, I have used cannabis for over 3 years and 1 1/2 of those years is daily use of Potent medical grade bud. As for E, id say around 1 1/2 year tops, with a minimum of a month 1/2 in between and never over 3 pills at a time. I had a friend test them before buying them, (don't tell me how do you know your friend tested them, ill smack you silly) and these are pokeballs were talking about. E caused so many more problems in the time I used it moderately with supplements and so on than did weed. I can also differentiate which drug caused what, don't ask how I am a very self aware person as some of you aren't I can see. I've already listed problems E has caused me and I'm not going to do it again but lets say the ration is 1/10th of what weed caused me. So you see I am telling you first hand how the very careful use of mdma caused a lot more harm than the heavy and still heavy use of my pot. See I am not talking about abuse here because any fucking moron knows every drug abused causes problems. E abused though just causes destruction.
 
F1n1shed said:
Cannabis can bring out underlying problems like psychosis if you were predisposed otherwise extremely low chance.
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Depends which studies you believe really...

Delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), the major psychoactive component of marijuana, is toxic for hippocampal neurons. Treatment of cultured neurons or hippocampal slices with THC caused shrinkage of neuronal cell bodies and nuclei as well as genomic DNA strand breaks, hallmarks of neuronal apoptosis.

source
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There is evidence of psychiatric, respiratory, cardiovascular, and bone toxicity associated with chronic cannabis use. Cannabis has now been implicated in the etiology of many major long-term psychiatric conditions including depression, anxiety, psychosis, bipolar disorder, and an amotivational state. Respiratory conditions linked with cannabis include reduced lung density, lung cysts, and chronic bronchitis. Cannabis has been linked in a dose-dependent manner with elevated rates of myocardial infarction and cardiac arrythmias. It is known to affect bone metabolism and also has teratogenic effects on the developing brain following perinatal exposure. Cannabis has been linked to cancers at eight sites, including children after in utero maternal exposure, and multiple molecular pathways to oncogenesis exist. CONCLUSION: Chronic cannabis use is associated with psychiatric, respiratory, cardiovascular, and bone effects. It also has oncogenic, teratogenic, and mutagenic effects all of which depend upon dose and duration of use.

source
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Heavy, long-term cannabis use may result in minor structural abnormalities in the brain as well as some subclinical effects on memory and mental health, according to research published in the Archives of General Psychiatry...

In the cannabis using group, the hippocampus was an average of 12% smaller and the amygdala an average of 7.1% smaller, by volume, compared with those who had not used cannabis. Cannabis users were also more likely to have subthreshold symptoms of psychosis and performed significantly more poorly on tests of verbal memory...

Today's research challenges the belief that chronic cannabis use has no major neurotoxic effects. Extremely heavy, long-term use may affect brain structures and possibly have an impact on memory and mental health.

source
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And just for giggles. Remember those propaganda pics of holes in the brain caused by MDMA? They have those for cannabis too (amongst other things)

NSFW:
Your brain

NSFW:
normal-brain.jpg


Your brain on cannabis

NSFW:
cannabis-brain.jpg


source


All human studies - not animal studies which translate poorly to human use in many instances.

Not saying I believe these studies show conclusive proof of the neurotoxicity of cannabis (amongst a whole host of other issues) any more than I do the MDMA ones but I also don't dismiss out of hand the research that doesn't fit with my own opinion because I don't like it and haven't seen it in my own life.


F1n1shed said:
MDMA CAN AND WILL CAUSE problems like anxiety is a huge one.
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That's a rather sweeping statement, no? Do you know me better than I do? Or any of those others for whom this simply doesn't appear to be the case? Tad presumptuous don't you think?

F1n1shed said:
I have read countless posts where E user's suffered from anxiety attacks including my self.
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Do you read the countless posts from MDMA users who have never noticed any problems at all including myself too by any chance? Or do they not count?

F1n1shed said:
Not only that you will be in a forced depressive state because your brain is robbed of its feel good chemical serotonin, and then you have to feel like shit and wait until your serotonin stores slowly recover. Even with moderation its doing nasty nasty in your brain. I have read countless studies and have personal experience from responsible use with preloading and post loading.
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More sweeping generalisations and selective reading - please don't tell me what I will feel cos I don't. Serotonin levels certainly drop for a short while but can't say I've ever had any problem beyond feeling a bit tired the next day. And I have plenty of personal experience with unbelievably irresponsible use and nary a hint of loading pre or post. Again, your experience and the ones you choose to believe don't apply to everybody.

F1n1shed said:
Also haven't you guys ever noticed all these posts of people crying about how ecstasy damaged their brain, changed them, made them a zombie, and caused so many complications with them.
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Yup. Have you never noticed the ones that don't?

F1n1shed said:
... when ever someone posts about E its solely on how it damaged their brain beyond repair.
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Beyond repair is also jumping the gun just a wee bit, in my opinion. Given the evidence for damage itself is inconclusive so far, to then make the leap to suggest that this possible damage is irreparable is pure conjecture.

F1n1shed said:
Keep debating with me please.
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I'm merely pointing out that your argument is slightly hypocritical and based on your own experience and from reading others experience that fits with yours whilst dismissing anything that doesn't fit with it. I'm not denying the problems people clearly have exist, nor am I saying MDMA causes no damage, I'm just saying that your experience isn't the whole story and the evidence for serious and/or permanent brain damage is not as conclusive as you are suggesting. My mind is still open on the matter is all.
 
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