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Ecstasy brain damage?

That's what I got out of it. If you really wanted to get into it I'm sure you would find some information by googling the metabolites, etc.
 
augustaB said:
My impression is that there is no substantial evidence of brain damage due to mdma abuse so far.

Of course there is the possibility that such evidence may yet be found.

On the other hand if the possibility of brain damage is high, one might be justified in arguing that it's surprising that no evidence has so far been turned up.

What we must admit is that mdma does have some lasting subjective effects, namely the ones underlying what we call "losing the magic".

At this stage though, I think we are justified in saying that the likelihood of measurable cognitive deterioration due to sensible mdma use is low.
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This.

Personally I believe MDMA does cause brain damage. However, I also believe that it is exaggerated considerably, and should be compared to the type of damage done by alcohol, i.e. hammering it for long periods of time will probably cause issues, but using it within reason most likely won't.
 
augustaB said:
My impression is that there is no substantial evidence of brain damage due to mdma abuse so far.

Of course there is the possibility that such evidence may yet be found.

On the other hand if the possibility of brain damage is high, one might be justified in arguing that it's surprising that no evidence has so far been turned up.

What we must admit is that mdma does have some lasting subjective effects, namely the ones underlying what we call "losing the magic".

At this stage though, I think we are justified in saying that the likelihood of measurable cognitive deterioration due to sensible mdma use is low.
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This pretty much sums up my position.

The biggest problem is that there simply has not been enough study done. Mind you I notice that felix77 will have you believe otherwise.

It is also foolish to completely discount the thousands of anecdotal accounts of problems that I have read in here over the years. Once again felix77 seems to think otherwise.

The greatest danger is when people such as felix77 spreads untruths and runs off at the mouth desperately trying to justify its use.

A balanced understanding and an open mind is vital.
 
felix77 said:
I gave a hippy a ride today, she is a photographer at the ski station. I tried to move my ski goggles off the back seat and she said "no it's ok" and threw her sack on my thumb that was injured skiing last week.

On top of that, she doesn't remember that we gave her a ride a few days ago and asked us if we were on vacation 3 times. Of course a glance at the license plate would tell her we live here.

I have met so many potheads absolutely oblivious to their surroundings. I don't think it is permanent but there is definitely cognitive deterioration from marijuana.
it really isn't some thing questioned, but then again if you can show me some proof......
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Thanks for posting this.

This provides a beautiful insight into the way your head works.

I thought from the start you were nothing but trolling. You have now proven me correct.

You have no credibility.
 
MazDan said:
Thanks for posting this.

This provides a beautiful insight into the way your head works.

I thought from the start you were nothing but trolling. You have now proven me correct.

You have no credibility.
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You're really full of it, you may disagree but you resort to insults and insinuation to argue your case. I'm sorry but thousands of accounts on these forums from people who rolled means little. The vast majority did not stick solely to MDMA. Also, for every thousand that say they have a problem, there are a few hundred thousand that didn't. You are only looking at the narrow group that comes here to bitch. Half of which are probably with the DEA.

A few have finally placed some evidence that suggest very mild effects may be possible. However, it certainly wasn't you or any other drug warrior here. It also does not conclusively prove brain damage. I would never lie to some one to supposedly protect them. You are hurting more people by promoting the anti drug cause rather then the harm reduction cause. Harm reduction does not include spewing unproven or disproved propaganda to convince people a drug is going to destroy their brain. That leads to A classification and impure drugs on the streets. Which is much more harmful then MDMA is, considering the millions who took it every week for decades.

If any one wants to post some real proof and not a second hand account a of people who have abused the rainbow of drugs, I will come back and discuss. The rest, go ahead and flame and insult, but any one who has ever taken a critical thinking class will see through your fallacy of an argument. It is really like debating evolution with an American Protestant.
 
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^^ Why do you think your evaluation of a marijuana-smoking hippy is valid while thousands of people who say MDMA has affected them is not?
 
he also must not have looked at the link posted by Rickolasnice. There are many studies showing that consuming MDMA causes brain damage. If Damien's wasn't enough surely they should be sufficient to change his mind.

But I doubt it.
 
footscrazy said:
^^ Why do you think your evaluation of a marijuana-smoking hippy is valid while thousands of people who say MDMA has affected them is not?
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Like a siad before, I did not say ecstasy has no cognitive effects, I have never seen them though. I think it could have short term effects, but like marijuana that passes. To claim brain damage for ether drug is irresponsible.

I can not say surely that ether drug has short term cognitive effects. I do however agree with David Nutt and his top 40 drug scientists that marijuana has more negative impacts then MDMA.

There actually are studies on marijuana and cognitive effects. You can search it but I am not going to argue two points when google is a click away. The conclusion is, marijuana had no major effect on peoples ability to study a single topic. However, when asked to multi task, there was a slight reduction in ability after mild use. Which pretty much reaffirms my observations that heavy pot smokers are oblivious to there surroundings. I know that was a driving factor for me quitting, when I no longer felt smart.

he also must not have looked at the link posted by Rickolasnice. There are many studies showing that consuming MDMA causes brain damage. If Damien's wasn't enough surely they should be sufficient to change his mind.

But I doubt it.
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Why am I even responding to statements like this, it isn't like an intelligent debate is happening here. Those are animal tests that suggest neurotoxicity could be possible in humans but is not conclusive proof...... It is not new evidence to the debate, do not think for a second that neurotoxicity translates to brain damage as well.
 
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From what i've gotten out of Felix's posts and the links provided:


The studies "so far" show minimal brain damage, but there is still more studying to do.


Thats what i get out of his posts. Whats wrong with that?


Moderators like MazDan seem to have anger issues. I've seen him snap on a lot of people. Yes this is a harm reduction site, but the "FACT" is so far studies show very minimal brain damage if any. Yes more studies need to be done, but all the studies point to the current "OMG XTC CAUSES MAD BRAIN DAMAGE" crap is comletely and grossly over stated.
 
Actually the metabolites were found in human urine after MDMA use.

Neurotoxic thioether adducts of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine identified in human urine after ecstasy ingestion.
Perfetti X, O'Mathúna B, Pizarro N, Cuyàs E, Khymenets O, Almeida B, Pellegrini M, Pichini S, Lau SS, Monks TJ, Farré M, Pascual JA, Joglar J, de la Torre R.

Human Pharmacology and Clinical Neurosciences Research Group, Institut Municipal d'Investigació Mèdica-Hospital del Mar, Dr. Aiguader 88, Barcelona, Spain 08003.
3,4-Methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, Ecstasy) is a widely misused synthetic amphetamine derivative and a serotonergic neurotoxicant in animal models and possibly humans. The underlying mechanism of neurotoxicity involves the formation of reactive oxygen species although their source remains unclear. It has been postulated that MDMA-induced neurotoxicity is mediated via the formation of bioreactive metabolites. In particular, the primary catechol metabolites, 3,4-dihydroxymethamphetamine (HHMA) and 3,4-dihydroxyamphetamine (HHA), subsequently cause the formation of glutathione and N-acetylcysteine conjugates, which retain the ability to redox cycle and are serotonergic neurotoxicants in rats. Although the presence of such metabolites has been recently demonstrated in rat brain microdialysate, their formation in humans has not been reported. The present study describes the detection of 5-(N-acetylcystein-S-yl)-3,4-dihydroxymethamphetamine (N-Ac-5-Cys-HHMA) and 5-(N-acetylcystein-S-yl)-3,4-dihydroxyamphetamine (N-Ac-5-Cys-HHA) in human urine of 15 recreational users of MDMA (1.5 mg/kg) in a controlled setting. The results reveal that in the first 4 h after MDMA ingestion approximately 0.002% of the administered dose was recovered as thioether adducts. Genetic polymorphisms in CYP2D6 and catechol-O-methyltransferase expression, the combination of which are major determinants of steady-state levels of HHMA and 4-hydroxy-3-methoxyamphetamine, probably explain the interindividual variability seen in the recovery of N-Ac-5-Cys-HHMA and N-Ac-5-Cys-HHA. In summary, the formation of neurotoxic thioether adducts of MDMA has been demonstrated for the first time in humans. The findings lend weight to the hypothesis that the bioactivation of MDMA to neurotoxic metabolites is a relevant pathway to neurotoxicity in humans.
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19349378?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=1

(Emphasis added by me)
 
Woodrowbt said:
From what i've gotten out of Felix's posts and the links provided:


The studies "so far" show minimal brain damage, but there is still more studying to do.


Thats what i get out of his posts. Whats wrong with that?


Moderators like MazDan seem to have anger issues. I've seen him snap on a lot of people. Yes this is a harm reduction site, but the "FACT" is so far studies show very minimal brain damage if any. Yes more studies need to be done, but all the studies point to the current "OMG XTC CAUSES MAD BRAIN DAMAGE" crap is comletely and grossly over stated.
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From reading the thread it looks like that's about the same conclusion Mazdan came as well. Everyone is entitled to their opinion though, and mine is that Mazdan is one of the nicest most caring people on this site. I wish you could see how much goes on behind the scenes and how much he really cares for this site and especially the noobs.

It's annoying when someone comes on here and tries to make a point while discounting thousands of first hand accounts. 8)

What then should we make of things like trip reports, pill reports, TIHKAL & PIHKAL? Most of those are just one or two accounts? Should we then just ignore them?

I don't know what felix's bone to pick here is but I think that there are better ways to go about it. Maybe being more considerate of what others are posting and engage in a conversation rather than lecturing or squabbling.

Just my .02.
 
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In my opinion you will have side effects with any drug.

With high quality mdma there was little to none with moderate use in my experience.


Of course if you go balls to the wall MDMA usage im sure it will have harder side effects as with ANY drug.
 
FWIW, I tend to agree with much of what Felix is saying, but I also agree with Damien that there are better ways to put forward the case than dismissing the experience of so many people - I'm pretty sure they're not all just imagining it or making it up purely to please prohibitionists and annoy those who are unconvinced by the research so far. When people on both sides of the debate dismiss what the other is saying out of hand it really doesn't achieve much but a slanging match which goes nowhere.

From what I've seen, the evidence so far doesn't conclusively prove serious and/or permanent brain damage very convincingly at all and much of what is presented as definitive proof of such damage is flawed. The opposite is also true of course - there is absolutely no conclusive proof that it doesn't cause damage or lasting issues of some description.

Realistically, I think some form of damage resulting from extended and/or heavy use of virtually any drug is all but inevitable and to think MDMA is one of the few exemptions is a lil over-optimistic to say the least. Common sense would suggest not to push your luck, listen to what your body tells you and try to moderate your behaviour accordingly. I've never experienced a problem from many years of obscene levels of MDMA abuse myself and can't think of anyone I know of personally who has either even after the most extreme and prolonged usage, but that's hardly solid evidence. It's just another subjective bit of anecdotal evidence to add to the pile - no more or less relevant than anybody else's experiences.

I'd think the truth of the matter probably lies somewhere between the two extremes in that grey area where the truth of anything tends to be.

Woodrowbt said:
With high quality mdma there was little to none with moderate use in my experience.
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This is something I have long wondered about. Almost all the problems I have heard of seem to be more around heavy/prolonged use of "Ecstasy" pills rather than MDMA crystal/powder of known quality and purity. It's the latter that I mean when I mention my own (and those that I have know) excessive use.

Obviously just an observation with nothing really to back it up but the problems I've read about seem to almost always involve pills rather than "pure" MDMA. That includes the "loss of magic" stuff - another phenomena that seems far more prevalent amongst pill-poppers than crystal-crunchers.

Pure conjecture, but it is one thing I have noticed that seems to make a big difference, all else being equal.

These newly merged posts have been brought to you today by the letters I, M and O - feel free to insert them wherever is appropriate :)
 
Whos to say that a lot of the problems that Bluelight's users post about aren't from MDMA and are in fact from adulterants in pills and powder. Or a mixture of the mystery chemical and MDMA. Or even withough MDMA! Especially now and days.

Its obvious that MDMA isnt really a harsh drug in terms of side effects/death. When used in moderation...
 
-_-

Go ask in ADD.. they know all..

1 thing they know is MDMA produces neurotoxic metabolites..
 
Well, in theory there should be no significant difference between (tested) pressed pills and (tested) crystal/powder... but it is something that I have noticed and wondered about for a while. Those who have mostly only used "pure" MDMA really don't seem to experience anything like as many problems (IMO, IME etc). Of course the sample size is rather limited to say the least so may well be completely insignificant and way off the mark and probably is. MDMA is MDMA so really shouldn't make any difference at all.

And when I say "pure" I am well aware that none of what we get is truly pure - meant only in the sense of having no cuts added to it. Actual purity can of course be very variable.
 
Exactly. For all we know the problems brought to us by the users of this forum could be from adulterants.

So far studies with only mdma has found little negatives.

Who is to say that everyone bringing issues to us on this forum have taken only MDMA and not adulterated pills?



I dunno.....food for thought.
 
It would need to be a common adulterant though, would it not? Are there many chemicals that would ever be randomly chucked into pills that could cause significant brain damage in such small quantities?
 
John Lewis said:
It would need to be a common adulterant though, would it not? Are there many chemicals that would ever be randomly chucked into pills that could cause significant brain damage in such small quantities?
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There are alot of adulterants people dont normally take or havent been studied much that end up in pills.
 
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