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*Safely* Easily Remove Naloxone From Suboxone

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As someone who regularly injects suboxone, I am curious as to if extracting it thru alcohol first to rid the solution of some of the inerts is helpful for harm reduction. According to a previous post in the thread, there are a few other inert ingredients that aren't soluble in alcohol , such as corn starch. I've done alcohol extractions on pills before so I'm ok with doing it, but only when necessary, like tramadol. Is it worth the extra steps to be rid of these?

As to why I prefer injecting suboxone, the main reason is efficiency. I can inject 1-2 mg and be good for a day. It takes atleast 4 mg sub. to have the same affect. Also, I have a hard time keeping them in my mouth w/o puking. I have vomited on more than one occasion from the taste (not from WD). It also takes affect in 15 minutes versus the 90 minutes if taken by sub. You do have to be careful when injecting though. It's much easier to bring on precipitated w/d this way. Wait a little longer for your induction than usual, even longer if you're coming down off methadone.

The other thing that gets me is that I buy my sub on the street because between the doc and the pharmacy, $150/month & $7.50/pill, it's cheaper. If the doc would just prescribe the subutex, then I could get the generic form and do it legit for almost the same price. But none of the docs I talked to will do that. It drives me nuts as suboxone is just as easy to abuse as the subutex. Not to mention, the whole pain management specialist thing is a big scam. There's no reason why a regular doctor can't prescribe this schedule 3 drug.
 
Naloxone was put in their to trick the FDA into approving the drug and it worked.

Bullshit. "Tricking FDA" had nothing to do with it... It was put in to extend the patent. Patent for Subutex (pure buprenorphine) expired, so they had to come up with a "new" product to keep bringing in the big bucks...
 
Swim is glad he ran across this post (which of course he ended up testing the topic of the thread once done reading... notes on experience further down this is just the story he was hoping someone would get enjoyment out of reading). A few weeks ago swim was getting subutex from his friend and swim enjoyed IVing them very very much (swim also happens to be the type of person who did everything from dros to fent and everything inbetween like the o so common dillys and ocs). It was like hitting a jackpot for swim b/c his buddy sold most of his script to swim and not only were they affordable, but they gave swim a GREAT rush and high for a very very long time (in terms of rush times). Than something horrible happened... supposedly all the pharmacies in swim's city no longer carried the subutex and swim was forced to get the nasty tasting orange mints. Now swim is the type of person that researches EVERYTHING before he does it and this was no exception. At first all swim found were the "scare" stories about the naloxone monster that brought pain and suffering to every inch of swims body. So swim didn't like the idea and swim went to find something swim could put in a rig. Well come to find out all the things swim use to know and love were:
1. insanely expensive
2. just didn't give the same punch time that the subutex did.
So swim gave up and started to take the orange mints as "prescribed" for his friend by his friend's doctor. Than swim had some money and decided to wait 24 hrs and go get high. Of course swim ALSO has a problem with the casino and got the bright idea that he could double his money and thus double the high. Crushed by his defeat swim went home a sad panda. And with the determination to find a way to get a rush swim went "Google"ing again and found the most remarkable post. Not only could he find a way to rig up the breath mints... but he could banish the evil hidden within their depths! So after much deliberation swim finally decided this was the best option (out of the 4 ways he could have gone about this according to his research). Needless to say swim was quite happy with the result. So happy that he made an account to some website just so he could tell his story and say THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!!!!!!!!!!! =D =D =D =D =D =D

Notes:
1. Swim knows that the naloxone's affinity is too low to do anything against the bupe. But swim wanted to have the peace of mind to know that nothing would go wrong (aside from the normal problems associated with IV). So please don't post how swim was stupid for going through this process because after all... swim did it for peace of mind more than anything and will continue to do it for peace of mind.
2. FYI swim has managed to find three other methods of IV which are as follows:
a. crush, mix (with water), draw (no heat) and shoot the old fashion way.
b. crush "lightly", mix with "next to freezing" water and tilt the needle at such an angle (against the cotton) that it draws up the water very slowly. Which in effect was suppose to separate the the naloxone from the bupe (which totally seemed far fetched and was "hard to explain" according to the author of this method).
c. crush, mix slightly (with cold water), draw (with the cotton at the edge of the puddle in spoon) and dispose of the first draw. The reasoning behind this being that naloxone is very soluble in water where as the bupe isn't so the first draw will be most/all the naloxone and very little/none of the bupe. Than treat the spoon as a "wash" load and shot (this seemed to be a very wasteful way of going about this).
3. Swim is a very impatient person so he added about 5 units of water and held a lighter under the "2nd" spoon until the iso had evapped (mind you he was still careful taking such precautions as holding the lighter about 3 inches under the spoon and having a big cup of water underneath). When most of it was gone there was still a "bubbling" portion in the spoon that swim thought was still iso but actually found out (after not being able to evap it) that it was (he guesses) sugar that underwent caramelization. So from his experience the easiest way to tell when the mix has been evapped of all iso swim recommends swiy smell it.
*edit* Swim is very impatient and now just lights the damn spoon on fire... while keeping the lighter underneath and removing periodically depending on top flame size lol after all swim likes his eyebrows.
4. Swim use to have a big habit but has since really dialed back what he use to do. Although the occasional opiate does peak his fancy swim prefers these to keep well and to get him through the day. Though swim had a big habit swim only did a half an 8 and it was more than enough to get swim where he wanted to go. Swim cannot confirm whether this will prevent DTs or not, but, within the last 6-7 hours swim had smoked an OC and has only good things to say about the experience. And before that swim probably hadn't done an OC for a week... and a month before that.
5. In swim's opinion IV sub is a very fun way to go. Swim get's a rush as long as his shots aren't too close to each other.

So here now is the end of swim's post and again swim would like to say THANK YOU VERY MUCH for the post ;). Swim hopes swim's story ends up helping someone in some small way. At the very least though swim hopes that it at least brings a smile to the posters face. <3<3<3 Happy V day
 
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Bullshit. "Tricking FDA" had nothing to do with it... It was put in to extend the patent. Patent for Subutex (pure buprenorphine) expired, so they had to come up with a "new" product to keep bringing in the big bucks...

That's not true at all. Suboxone and Subutex came out at roughly the same time. Subutex's patent just ran out, and I believe that Suboxone will be running out in the next year or so. They had extensions due to moronic orphan drug status that the FDA granted, but with both drugs out at the same time, they didn't gain any significant patent extensions as a result.

I'm sure someone else can comment on this with more authority because I'm not 100% sure when suboxone came out vs. subutex though I'm fairly certain they were within 2 years of eachother, if not a few months.
 
Before subutex, there were other, lower dose buprenorphin pills (Temgesic to name one) so it's reasonable to assume the patent for buprenorphine-only medication was approved before subutex came out.

Also I'm pretty sure there was actually more than 2 years between tex & xone, but I'd have to check on this.

Also FDA is an american institute, is it not? And subutex, suboxone & others are marketed worldwide? There's a huge market for buprenorphine in europe. And the company that held the patent for subutex is european. So I don't see why they'd specifically want to "trick the FDA"... or maybe they would, but that definitely is not the reason Suboxone was made, else they'd have marketed it in the US only...

From wiki

Buprenorphine hydrochloride was first marketed in the 1980s by Reckitt & Colman (now Reckitt Benckiser) as an analgesic, available generally as Temgesic 0.2 mg sublingual tablets
 
started suboxone this past sunday

I have been user of ppt for almost 3 yrs. I recently used heavily ppt for 4 days before starting on suboxone. I started suboxone 12 hours later. I did not experience any WD and feel it is helping me tremendously. I have 2nd doc appt tomorrow plus drug test. 1st drug test last week i could not pee because I was in Wd and could not eat or drink anything. I guess they thought I was trying to get out of it lol. I tried like 5 times and drank 15 small cups of tap water and still couldnt pee. That was how dehydrated I was. I was so happy when I finally peed. Anyway my opiate level was 1700. It might be higher tomorrow i dont know. But it is my third day today on bups and I can say I feel in control now whereas before I felt helplessly no control and bound to this aweful tea. I loved the tea. I loved that relaxing feeling when you lay down and your in that twilight state forever. But I hated sleeping too much. I want my life back and I want to feel normal again. So pray for me. I dont have any money because I lost my job and my mom is helping me through this. Thank god my hubby got good job now. I was a nurse so you see where I am coming from. I will be so proud of myself to get through this. I finally have some hope now. Sent last box of poppys unopened back-return to sender on it!!!:)
 
Listen, people I know this post is a little old but I can settle this feud. The reason the naloxone is in suboxone is only to keep people from injecting it... this is feasable because of something called bioavailability. When taken sublingually naloxone isn't absorbed well at all and bupe is. When injected the opposite is true. So the naloxone is the active chemical reaking havoc on your receptors when you inject a suboxone. This is the true reason why there is 2 different drugs... no big conspiracy, only pharmacology and different circumstances and uses for the drugs.
 
I'm sure you're not telling anything new to anybody here. That is common knowledge amongst opioid-users. It's the same story with the famous tilidine/naloxone-combo ("Valoron N").

But I see that this was your first post at Bluelight. A warm WELCOME then! :)


Peace! - Murphy
 
Listen, people I know this post is a little old but I can settle this feud. The reason the naloxone is in suboxone is only to keep people from injecting it... this is feasable because of something called bioavailability.

It's not at all feasible. Buprenorphine having way higher receptor affinity than naloxone effectively renders the naloxone to an expensive filler.

When taken sublingually naloxone isn't absorbed well at all and bupe is. When injected the opposite is true. So the naloxone is the active chemical reaking havoc on your receptors when you inject a suboxone.

No it doesn't, when injected the naloxone doesn't even reach your receptors if they are already saturated with buprenorphine (ie. when you use regularly). Even for someone who only uses occasionally, the naloxone will at most slow the come-up of the buprenorphine.

This is the true reason why there is 2 different drugs... no big conspiracy, only pharmacology and different circumstances and uses for the drugs.

This is what the pharmaceutical companies want you to believe. But ask yourself this: do they really have your best interest in mind? If adding naloxone to their pills gives them the opportunity to make a lot more money, don't you think they can come up with whatever justifications for it - like "deterring abuse", for which the naloxone is completely useless?
 
You may be correct when you say that there would be a minimal effect once the user had been taking subs and the bupe was already on the receptors, however, the people "they" want to deter from abusing aren't the people already using as prescribed. They are deterring opiate addicts from using this as just another drug because after all the only people getting bupe for the most part is opiate addicts, and who are they most likely to give these pills to if they were abusable? Other addicts. As to your first comment, bioavailability when injected for bupe is slim to none meaning barely any bupe gets through to your brain while at the same time the narcans BA is high thorugh iv so a shitload goes right on through to ones brain making this the perfect combo for deterring abuse. You don't think the fda knows about the games big pharma plays? People on a blog can unravel the conspiracy but all the scientists and experts at the fda can't? No there was no trickery, this was a valid new formulation to the drug with a purpose.
 
You may be correct when you say that there would be a minimal effect once the user had been taking subs and the bupe was already on the receptors, however, the people "they" want to deter from abusing aren't the people already using as prescribed. They are deterring opiate addicts from using this as just another drug because after all the only people getting bupe for the most part is opiate addicts, and who are they most likely to give these pills to if they were abusable?

I'm sorry but you don't know what you are talking about. Buprenorphine alone will precipitate withdrawal symptoms if given to a person who is addicted to full mu agonists. The naloxone is totally unnecessary for this purpose. Yet, people still manage to abuse buprenorphine (subutex and suboxone) and IV them, they just need to take a break from the full agonists for a few days when switching to buprenorphine.

As to your first comment, bioavailability when injected for bupe is slim to none

Where do you get this idea? That's pure bullshit.

while at the same time the narcans BA is high thorugh iv so a shitload goes right on through to ones brain making this the perfect combo for deterring abuse.

No. Just, no. They both go to the brain, bupre hits the receptors, naloxone doesn't since the bupre is already blocking the receptors. Naloxone then finds it's way to whatever other receptors it has affinity for or gets metabolized, but it does nothing to prevent the effects of buprenorphine.

You don't think the fda knows about the games big pharma plays? People on a blog can unravel the conspiracy but all the scientists and experts at the fda can't? No there was no trickery, this was a valid new formulation to the drug with a purpose.

Yeah, keep telling yourself that. Why are you so keen to stick up for pharma companies anyway? You work for Reckitt Benckiser or something?
 
"Because of its opioid agonist effects, buprenorphine is abusable, particularly by individuals who are not physically addicted to opioids. Naloxone is added to buprenorphine to decrease the likelihood of diversion and abuse of the combination product. Sublingual buprenorphine has moderate bioavailability, while sublingual naloxone has poor bioavailability. Thus, when the buprenorphine/naloxone tablet is taken in sublingual form, the buprenorphine opioid agonist effect predominates, and the naloxone does not precipitate opioid withdrawal in the opioid-addicted user."

Straight from the experts....

You know, you shouldn't be so quick to blow off people, even if you think you are probably right. Keep an open mind. I know there are hordes of idiots spewing bullshit on this site 24/7, and I can understand your reluctance. Yes, the companies want to make money.... And their practices as a whole aren't perfect. However, they supply the public with medications that benefit us, and in turn they get what they want as well. Money. Suboxone's formulation was created to stop abuse, the company created it because there was a market for it. Period. I'd rather have the companies around than not have medicine at all.

Naloxone via the parenteral route, however, has good bioavailability. If the sublingual buprenorphine/naloxone tablets are crushed and injected by an opioid-addicted individual, the naloxone effect predominates and can precipitate the opioid withdrawal syndrome.
 
^ Sorry fucked up the quote when pasting it.


"Because of its opioid agonist effects, buprenorphine is abusable, particularly by individuals who are not physically addicted to opioids. Naloxone is added to buprenorphine to decrease the likelihood of diversion and abuse of the combination product. Sublingual buprenorphine has moderate bioavailability, while sublingual naloxone has poor bioavailability. Thus, when the buprenorphine/naloxone tablet is taken in sublingual form, the buprenorphine opioid agonist effect predominates, and the naloxone does not precipitate opioid withdrawal in the opioid-addicted user.

Naloxone via the parenteral route, however, has good bioavailability. If the sublingual buprenorphine/naloxone tablets are crushed and injected by an opioid-addicted individual, the naloxone effect predominates and can precipitate the opioid withdrawal syndrome.

Under certain circumstances buprenorphine by itself can also precipitate withdrawal in opioid-addicted individuals. This is more likely to occur with higher levels of physical addiction, with short time intervals (e.g., less than 2 hours) between a dose of opioid agonist (e.g., methadone) and a dose of buprenorphine, and with higher doses of buprenorphine."
 
Dude you people are (some of you) idiots.


Dread is 100% CORRECT

Naloxone really doesn't do anything. The only thing it really does is decrease the "rush" when injected.

PERIOD.
ITS (naloxone combo) NOT A BLOCKER. ITS NOT THE CAUSE OF PREc-WD!
BUP DOES THE BLOCKING!!!

As oxymorphone said, THIS HAS BEEN COVERED!

Sorry for yelling. I just cant stand too see this shit all the fucking time. People do some fucking research.
 
Naloxone via the parenteral route, however, has good bioavailability. If the sublingual buprenorphine/naloxone tablets are crushed and injected by an opioid-addicted individual, the naloxone effect predominates and can precipitate the opioid withdrawal syndrome.

Ok, I'm so tired of explaining the same thing over and over, so this will be the last time. Seriously.

Naloxone doesn't precipitate the withdrawals. The buprenorphine does. All the naloxone does is give you the runs, when it binds to the mu-receptors in your gut. I noticed this effect very clearly when I started my suboxone meds - each time I took my dose I could accurately predict myself to be in the toilet 30 minutes later. Although when you get used to the dose this effect becomes less noticeable.

Ok, one more time then. 8mg buprenorphine + 2mg naloxone are dissolved (and hopefully also filtered properly if you know what's good for you) and injected into bloodstream. The blood carries the active substances to the brain, where they pass the BBB (look it up) and finally, they find the mu-receptors. Buprenorphine, having a binding affinity (look it up) orders of magnitude higher than naloxone, binds to the receptors. Some naloxone may bind, but will be quickly replaced by buprenorphine (again, due to higher binding affinity) result: buprenorphine is bound to mu-receptors = mu-receptors are saturated = no mu-receptors remain available for naloxone to bind.

Now what happens in opioid-addicted individuals is, that their body is used to full mu-agonism (ie. the receptor being activated 100% ). Buprenorphine is not a full agonist at the mu-receptor, it is partial, ie. it only activates it less-than-100% so effectively the opioid-addicted-individuals brain is getting less mu-agonism and therefore goes to withdrawal. Nothing in this is caused by naloxone.

The addition of naloxone to the formulation was simply a shady trick to extend the patent and make more money out of a drug (buprenorphine) when it's patent was expiring. It doesn't take a supr genius to figure this out.
 
youre right about everything you said except the thing is that the bupe doesnt even make it to the brain... thats what bio-availability is, it is measured in percents. so thats to say there is a 30% BA orally and 60% rectally for example. So you get 30 percent of the drug one route and 60 the other. So, when injected the BA of Bupe is almost zero, meaning no noticeable amount of it got through. On the other hand when ived naloxones BA is VERY high meaning a shitload got through. So bupe plays NO ROLE WHEN INJECTED. Thats what i have been saying. I know all about the affinity levels and youre right when the two fight it out Bupe wins. But they arent fighting when you inject, its the narcan all alone. By the way this has nothing to do with molecule size and the Blood brain barrier, both of these are small in molecular size, i know you wanted to bring it up to sound smart... you dont have to prove anything to me you seem very knowledgeable, but in this case you misunderstood what i was saying and was also unaware of what i was talking about. A deadly combo when trying to debate. Look up the numbers and also look up what bio-availability is so you can understand that it isnt a conspiracy. its big pharma charging too much for something there is a market for. I am not okay with the price, but the reason for the formula change is valid.
 
can anyone please back me up on this? I know I'm right and only one person has bothered to agree with fact. I dont want to be one of those people who starts throwing all kinds of quotes from journals. I know some one in this forum has heard of BIO-AVAILABILITY.
 
youre right about everything you said except the thing is that the bupe doesnt even make it to the brain... thats what bio-availability is, it is measured in percents. so thats to say there is a 30% BA orally and 60% rectally for example. So you get 30 percent of the drug one route and 60 the other. So, when injected the BA of Bupe is almost zero, meaning no noticeable amount of it got through. On the other hand when ived naloxones BA is VERY high meaning a shitload got through. So bupe plays NO ROLE WHEN INJECTED. Thats what i have been saying. I know all about the affinity levels and youre right when the two fight it out Bupe wins. But they arent fighting when you inject, its the narcan all alone. By the way this has nothing to do with molecule size and the Blood brain barrier, both of these are small in molecular size, i know you wanted to bring it up to sound smart... you dont have to prove anything to me you seem very knowledgeable, but in this case you misunderstood what i was saying and was also unaware of what i was talking about. A deadly combo when trying to debate. Look up the numbers and also look up what bio-availability is so you can understand that it isnt a conspiracy. its big pharma charging too much for something there is a market for. I am not okay with the price, but the reason for the formula change is valid.

This post is so full of shit I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
 
can anyone please back me up on this? I know I'm right and only one person has bothered to agree with fact. I dont want to be one of those people who starts throwing all kinds of quotes from journals. I know some one in this forum has heard of BIO-AVAILABILITY.

Where the fuck do you get the absurd notion that buprenorphine would have "low bioavailability when injected"?

Do you even know what bioavailability MEANS?

Bioavailability as a concept doesn't even apply to IV use. By definition, anything that is injected has 100% bioavailability (unless it gets metabolized by blood enzymes or something which buprenorphine doesn't.)

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioavailability

In pharmacology, bioavailability is used to describe the fraction of an administered dose of unchanged drug that reaches the systemic circulation

So when you inject, do you know where the stuff you inject ends up to? It ends up in your bloodstream, ie. systematic circulation. ONE HUNDRED PERCENT.


Sheesh, I don't even know how to make this any more clear.
 
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