Thread: Kratom and liver damage

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    Kratom and liver damage 
    Bluelighter 7ca5p's Avatar
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    Ive heard that people experiance some really unpleasent stuff after experimenting with kratom. E.g. Kidney stones, jaundice, urinary retention.

    Just wondering exaclty how common it is to experience this?

    To put it simply, I really dont want to have experience with a catheter!
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    I have never heard of such problems pertaining to Kratom use. If you can cite those claims, I would like to read about it.

    The only health problems I have heard of is possible respiratory depression with excessive doses, which I do not believe is proven as of yet.
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    I've not heard of this either, but that doesn't mean that it isn't so in the slightest.
    I've heard that other parts of the Kava plant except for the root can cause liver damage (leaves, bark, stem etc.) so maybe you're getting the two mixed up?
    Maybe it would be worth researching a bit just to make sure.
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    Bluelighter 7ca5p's Avatar
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    few of the places I read it:

    Whether chronic heavy daily kratom use really would result in other health problems such as psychiatric problems, facial skin discoloration, seizures, or liver disease is unknown. But an old Thai study (which I don't have that much confidence in) suggests it might. So don't go overboard.

    Yes, in a small subset of users, Kratom can most certainly cause serious hepatic health complications.

    I have been in and out of the hospital for several months now because of it. Decided to try it, liked it, and did it fairly regularly (2-3 x a week) at about 10g a dose. I developed jaundice, extreme liver enzyme levels on several counts (Alkaline Phosphatase 447-570, Aspartate Aminotransferase 375-460, Alanine Aminotransferase 685-834, Urine Bilirubin 6.0, Direct Urine Bilirubin 5.3). Also developed severe RUQ pain approx 6-8hrs post-dose each use.

    Needless to say I stopped as soon as I realized the connection between the ingestion of the herb and the symptoms.

    If you are taking this medication (it is a medication - whether in herbal form or not), then please do so with the support of a health care provider - or at least pay to get some liver panels done directly after dosing (within 24-48 hrs). If you must lie, tell your doctor you were taking Hydroxycut or another one of those type of dietary supplements which are known to cause liver damage in some people, or tell him you noticed some yellowing of the eyes and skin which spontaneously resolved after the weekend. Whatever it takes to get it done, it's worth it.

    If you're killing your liver, it's better to find out about it sooner rather than later. I'm glad I found the link early, or in ignorance I could have caused a much larger problem like chronic liver disease.

    Not everyone will have this particular issue, some people may take this plant completely symptom-free, and liver enzymes may remain normal. But is that you? How do you know? And how do you know for sure? Just get a quick blood test at the lab and voila! - instant peace of mind. Too easy.

    Good luck to all with this plant. I adore it, but alas, I must admire from afar.

    my brother and I have been doing kratom for the past 3 weeks. i haven't had any adverse reactions to it, but my brother is suffering from jaundice, which might be liver disease. his color is a pale yellow all the time, he is weak, nauseous, and pees dark brown liquid. he says that the kratom has done this to him. he's very concerned that he has done damage to his liver, as he has been a heavy drinker in the past, so his liver has already been put through a workout.

    so a word of warning... i'm not sure about the kratom/liver disease connection, but my brother is definitely ill, and he was ok before he started doing kratom. i'm very worried about him, he has been ill for about a week, but he seems to be slowly improving. just know that there is a very possible danger that liver damage could result from extended heavy kratom use.
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    Bluelighter 7ca5p's Avatar
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    Bluelighter boodha's Avatar
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    I think it is definitely possible, look at the kava history of even liver failure from that plant(it was actually the wrong parts being eaten)

    so im sure something like that with Kratom could be possible....

    there is just not enough information to be sure either way.
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    That is non-conclusive anecdotal evidence. The last quote in particual does not hold water - the notion that a long-term heavy drinker would blame the development of jaundice on recent kratom use.
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    I have been taking kratom for about 2 years everyday with a week every other month not taking it in order to avoid building a tolerance, about an ounce a day (which seems like alot but it cost about 2 dollars if your buying in bulk). I was using your basic indo kratom powder from a regular supplier -
    I was def. concerned that taking kratom every day may have had a negative effect on my liver/kidneys, reading some of these posts made me a bit nervous.
    I went to get some blood work done, full physical ect..
    The results came back and my doctor was very happy-
    My blood was a better than normal (since my last examine) - in the good -very good range for liver, and good range for kidney. I also had a great check up with nothing bad going on in my body.. cholesterol levels low, electrolytes high, which was great news and a huge relief!!
    I am thinking taking the kratom actually helped me seeing that things improved over two years with nothing else changing accept taking kratom regularly. I know it has a ton of antioxidants and what not but there is not alot of actual proof of its usefulness in your body.
    The thing that may make the difference is that I have in this time only used, kratom, kava (every month on and off) and kanna (once in awhile).
    No alcohol or drugs (seriously.., kratom helps me to stay level headed and keeps me from not wanting to do anything else- drug or alcohol its amazing)
    So i can honestly say - kratom does not cause any liver issues - I have the results to prove it, and the daily usage to substantiate it. I think if your drinking and using drugs while taking kratom of course your going to blame one thing for the other. I just wanted to set everyone str8 on this topic since I noticed the concern from users out there (i was one of them). I really think that if you can just limit yourself to one thing daily (if you need something to relax and wind down like me) kratom is pretty good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrjackjones View Post
    That is non-conclusive anecdotal evidence. The last quote in particual does not hold water - the notion that a long-term heavy drinker would blame the development of jaundice on recent kratom use.
    Yea people need to make the distinction between temporal relationships and actual causal relationships.
    Think of it this way:

    1-More and more people are using kratom everyday.
    2-People develop liver problems all the time from all sorts of things.
    3-There are bound to be people who start using kratom and then develop liver problems soon thereafter.
    *However, this does NOT mean that the kratom caused the liver problems. Of course its possible that the kratom did cause liver problems in these individuals, but its also entirely possible that the person's liver problems just so happened to occur around the time they began using kratom.

    Personally I believe kratom has proven itself to be a pretty damn safe substance. It has a long history of chronic use and there are very few reports of adverse effects (aside from minor issues like nausea).
    However, it goes without saying that if you notice any signs of trouble after using kratom, you should consult a doctor and discontinue usage.-DG
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    Kratom Can Cause Liver Failure 
    1/04/2011: I took 2.5 Grams of the 10x Kratom extract
    That evening I experienced abdominal pain which I foolishly wrote off as gas pains.

    1/04/2011 - 1/18/2011: Experienced what I later found out where symptoms of Jaundice. I kept expecting these symtoms to fade away but they didn't.

    1/19/2011: Checked into the hospital and was diagnosed as having Liver Failure.

    Went through a battery of tests including a liver biopsy at with one of the best Dr's in the country. He determined I had Drug Induced Choleostasis.

    2/27/2011: Still recovering, probably have another 2 months until I am back to normal.

    Could have been a bad batch of Kratom or that I was allergic but I can say for sure that the last 2 months have been a living hell: Debiliating Nausea, itching,yellow skin/eyes, vitamin defecient, can only vegetables.

    I hope this post helps someone.
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    Bluelighter Whipped Dream's Avatar
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    The three "sources" posted above aren't sources at all. They're just unsubstantiated claims made by supposed real life individuals. Where's the links? Who are these people? Is there a published medical journal or study to back up these claims?

    I want to see actual sources - not three quotes from supposed anecdotal experiences.

    And what's up with our newest member "KratomLiverFailure?" Sounds like a good story to me. Who joins up a forum like this with that username and the only post made was to post that Kratom made his liver fail? Quite unusual....hmmmmm.
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    Bluelight Crew amapola's Avatar
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    ^I've seen it before where people join up just to spread their story no matter what old threads they bump.

    As for kratom and liver damage just that one old study on Thai eaters that I could find.
    I think in the anecdotal accounts there are pre-existing conditions, unique bad reactions, etc. that the kratom usage could have exacerbated. Whether long to medium term usage is linked to a decrease in liver function is unknown, but seems to be little worse than you could imagine from chronically abusing any active substance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whipped Dream View Post
    The three "sources" posted above aren't sources at all. They're just unsubstantiated claims made by supposed real life individuals. Where's the links? Who are these people? Is there a published medical journal or study to back up these claims?

    I want to see actual sources - not three quotes from supposed anecdotal experiences.

    And what's up with our newest member "KratomLiverFailure?" Sounds like a good story to me. Who joins up a forum like this with that username and the only post made was to post that Kratom made his liver fail? Quite unusual....hmmmmm.
    2.5 grams of what a pussy.....

    thats like saying if i drink once in a while im gonna get it

    if you do kratom everyday overboard there is a chance of anything

    drinking a beer isnt gonna fuckk up my shit so neither is occasional kratom

    must have been his first time and he freaked out or something and didnt know how to poop

    as for urinary retention..that is true...but its true with other opiates...duh...
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    Bluelighter Juicy Lucy's Avatar
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    I've been a daily kratom user for almost five years, my use has ranged from 100g's a week to 400g's a week, I only use plain leaf. I've not had any problems what so ever (yet).

    Also I know of 4 other long term almost daily users who have had liver tests and have all been ok.

    I'm not saying it def safe, from what I understand Bali is the the most farmed and can included the most chemicals, pestisides etc.
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    I saw another paper a while back that had histological pics of mouse liver biopsies before and after kratom dosage (see below disclaimer), that showed gross derangement of the cells in the liver after a single dose. (I.e. the damage was blatantly obvious) Make you a little nervous, but the liver is there to take that sort of beating and protect you from all the errant plants you might eat in the wild, and it can regenerate to a significant degree.

    Standard disclaimers apply with all RCs (and this is an RC), and animal research. Also, I might be confusing the paraphrased paper with one on Sceletium Tortuosum as I was also researching that at the time. If I get a chance I'll try and look around.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackie jones View Post
    I have never heard of such problems pertaining to Kratom use. If you can cite those claims, I would like to read about it.

    The only health problems I have heard of is possible respiratory depression with excessive doses, which I do not believe is proven as of yet.
    Hey, guys. I know that it's been eight years since this post, but I just wanted to add my experiences with kratom in case somebody comes along and finds this. I know this isn't an ~official source~, but this DID happen, and no, I'm not trolling. I actually just created this account in order to share my experience.

    So, I started taking kratom in June 2016 so that I could get off opiates. At first, everything was fine - but then, a few days later, I started experiencing signs of serious liver dysfunction. I became extremely jaundiced (I wish I had taken a picture to prove it, but it didn't occur to me at the time). My feet and legs started swelling up - my doctor told me that it was just because it was summer, so I didn't think it was a problem at the time. I had a fever, I was throwing up every few hours (I hadn't vomited in over fifteen years prior to this), and my feet were so fucking itchy that I had to keep them submerged in water for about three days straight, because otherwise they were just driving me completely insane.

    I didn't put it all together until my feet began itching - I rationalized away all of my other symptoms, even the jaundice (I thought I was imagining it). After that, I did a bit of research online about kratom and sound a few sources indicating that it occasionally can cause acute liver failure in people who are taking it, and I stopped taking it for a while. The entire kratom community completely disowned me, accused me of trolling, and even argued that I must have secretly been taking some other type of drug to cause this reaction. I didn't - I was taking ONLY kratom at the time, nothing else. Not any other kind of medication, not even Tylenol. Just kratom. But, of course, they need to deny that kratom can have serious reactions (even though it's extremely rare) to "prove" that there's nothing wrong with it. They made me doubt myself at the time, so I began taking it again about two weeks later, at a much lower dose (1 tsp at a time).

    This past weekend, I just realized that I'm suffering from low-level liver abnormalities again. The kratom, at a much lower dose, is causing it, I'm sure - again, I'm not taking any other medications at all. M feet have been swollen for about a week. I wasn't jaundiced, but I did start vomiting again. My hands were twitching. I've been experiencing significant memory loss since April, which I've only recently begun to realize, but I thought it was normal. The night I figured it out, it was because I had just taken some kratom about 45 minutes before, and began to experience extreme confusion and paranoia - just for one example, I thought the fridge was rapping.

    Please understand that I'm not trying to attack kratom or people who take it, or suggesting that it should be illegal. Kratom is clearly a live-saver for people who are trying to get clean, especially those who don't want to try methadone or suboxone due to the prolonged withdrawals. Everybody has a different experience with kratom - it just so happens that my personal experience was a very bad one, and I just want to warn you guys about it so that you know what's going on if you take kratom and end up experience signs of liver dysfunction.

    Here are a few studies about hepatoxicity in kratom users, for those of you who will doubt this story and argue that I must have just had something else. My doctor agreed that it was most likely the kratom, since I neither take any other drugs, and nor do I have Hepatitis C or anything else they can find. I also started re-experiencing these symptoms after continuing to use kratom, so that's the most likely explanation.

    (Incidentally, I have also experienced respiratory depression as a result of kratom too. You know that feeling of when you take opiates and wake up the next morning with that fluid feeling in your lungs? I experienced that on kratom as well.)

    (No, I'm not a hypochondriac.)
    Last edited by Hollyucinogen; 12-02-2017 at 22:38. Reason: additional information
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    Bluelighter CfZrx's Avatar
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    My two cents : Make it as a tea for a more healthy liver. No I'm not a doctor. Just guessing it is a little less work for your liver My experience with kratom has been that it is 100% safe, and much much less addictive than pharmaceutical opis. And you can only get a certain degree of high and that's it! Any more than your correct dose and you will feel nauseated
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    Basic Drug Discussion
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    Thank you for sharing your experience with us, Hollyucinogen. I hope you get better soon and keep on posting!
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    Hi I thought I would add mine as well. I just started kratom about a month ago. When I take it i experience the worse pain in my lower back and stomache. Its almost unbarable after child birth. It really sucks cause kratom was helping me to come down off suboxone. Im guessing its from years of drinking. I have not drank in 10 years but when I did it was alot. My leg is swollen as well. It started last week and they couldn't figure out exactly what it was. Now I know its from my liver and taking kratom. This stuff DoES help! Just please pay attention to your body and what it is telling you. Wanted to pass this on. Thank you and as well im not putting kratom down. I wish I could take it. It has helped me get from 2 a day to almost 1 a day that fast. Good luck to everyone and GOD BLESS
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    Kratom has potentially significant interaction with liver enzymes CYP2C9, CYP2D6 and CYP3A4.1 Given the possible range of genetic differences re: metabolic ability in CYP2D62 alone it seems like Kratom could cause serious complications for some and not others.

    1 Mitragynine noncompetitively inhibits CYP2C9 and CYP2D6 activities with the Ki values of 61.48 and 12.86 μM respectively ... mitragynine inhibits CYP3A4 competitively with a Ki value of 379.18 μM.
    2 CYP2D6 shows the largest phenotypical variability among the CYPs, largely due to genetic polymorphism.
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    kratom fucked me up. acute hepatitis. er and all. got my first and only iv shot of morphine in result. not worth it. big bill and maybe even some tears from physical pain. you get abdominal pain taking kratom, sucks to be you and stop immediately. you're probably in for it by the time you notice. i acted like a stupid drug abuser and kept dosing for a few days until it was really noticeable.

    i didn't tell them it was kratom and left with a bottle of something much better. with apap though. idiot doctors. saved it for after enzyme levels returned to normal.

    don't listen to any hippy nonsense saying kratom doesn't hurt anyone. it's only happens to some people, but if it's you it does not matter if you make tea or whatever. your liver can't handle it and you're gonna hurt. not on the first dose, but who takes a drug that feels good just once.

    the reason people join just to post about it is because it's horrible. check out the view count on this thread. people out there googling why they feel like death.
    Last edited by hydroazuanacaine; 11-04-2017 at 04:11.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hydroazuanacaine View Post
    don't listen to any hippy nonsense saying kratom doesn't hurt anyone.

    Its disturbing how intensely kratom zealots suppress any discussion of possible harm. The brutal cross examination/denial/accusation of people reporting serious liver toxicity (among other negatives) is low down behavior. It isn't right to prioritize maintaining the idealized public image of a drug over the well-being of other people!

    Kratom is a complex, unregulated mix of unique drugs. No drug has ever or will ever be unilaterally safe across all people and contexts. In fact, many are pretty dangerous. Hence harm reduction...

    To those who have experienced issues: I hope you made a full and speedy recovery!
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    Interesting thread- A few pointers from an OLD FOOL. it seems to me one must qualify any information being posted or published anywhere- especially information that big pharma companies have an interest in. Personally, I have had nothing but good experiences with Kratom. I did a lot of research on this topic before I started using it, and I was concerned about specifically the liver/kidneys. I have taken it daily about 2 years, and it works wonders on my arthritis, and my experience has been exactly like 99.9% of what I have seen and read in the last couple of years. My blood tests come back perfect every time. However, the human biological system can vary dramatically from one individual to another. For example, I can not take any statin drugs. I found this out when I was measured with extremely high cholesterol at a very young age. I tried taking the statin drugs, and it almost killed me as my liver completely rejected these types of drugs, so I have had to use other non-statin drugs my whole life while many people (almost everyone I've met that has high cholesterol) I know can use them with no problem. In fact, my problem with statin cholesterol medication is rare.

    So, although I know many that are taking kratom daily with no problems at all, I am sure there are some that may simply react differently to the kratom, and surely any one having adverse reactions would want to stay away from the stuff. But who and where do some of these comments come from in these posts and in the media? Lets look at some facts: 1) Kratom has been reported to, and is known to by many, to have many great properties for many people's health. 2) It is a great analgesic that works wonders on pain for everyone from cancer patients to people with severe arthritis. 3) It does not appear to be addictive (to anyone I have ever met or know) 4.) Most people report zero side effects except for some slight constipation, 5.) It is a much better solution for pain than hard opioids or any other pain killers because of these virtually non-existent side effects, 6.) Everyone (in my experience or reading) reports that it does not affect their mental faculties or in any way dull down their senses or make them fuzzy like other drugs, 7) Most report that they do not even get any noticeable "high" from the drug but they experience a slight boost in energy, It has been particularly useful in helping drug addicts get OFF hard drugs, 9) the negative reactions and/or deaths being cited in association with this drug are almost always when it is being used with or in conjunction with other drugs (including MAO, MAOI) 10) New benefits of the drug for many different ailments are being discovered and reported on a regular basis, 10) It is very low cost, 11) Large U.S. pharmaceutical companies have reported that they are currently studying the drug to "discover new possible cures for ailments that can be provided to the public..." which, of course, will be patented and brought to you in "safe" form...

    I think fact #11 is the most interesting. What do these facts tell you? If any one reading this knows the history of the US government, special interest, the FDA, and the associated pharmaceutical companies involved here- and their history, they will ALWAYS consider all of the possibilities involved in any large scale communication. Who would benefit from scaring the public about using some homeopathic remedy from the annals of South East Asia? Who would benefit from the drug being outlawed entirely (so that it had to be regulated)? Why would they want it regulated?

    An estimated 88,000 people died in alcohol related deaths in the US in the year 2016. Isn't it odd that no one seems to be concerned about that? No mass hysteria here. In 2016, the US Federal government collected 9.8 BILLION on taxing the sales of alcohol. You don't really have too look to far to collect all the dots- its all right in front of you. These days, it is more important than ever to know your own body- and be your own doctor. Don't get me wrong, I do have a Dr. that is very good, and I listen to him very carefully (he is a rare one), but you can't expect the whole world to give you the answers about everything. Further, if you think that institutions are more concerned about your health than the holy $, your living on another planet. Think for yourself- do your own research, pay attention to the forces at work around you, and don't be a zombie that mindlessly follows others off of a cliff, but most importantly- pay attention to your body, and listen to what IT tells you...
    Last edited by techmonster; 29-11-2017 at 02:51.
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    Ive used kratom habitually off and on for many years; maintaining habits up to 45-50 grams per day. Not bunk either. I sourced quality strains that worked best for me from reputable vendors.

    I have no health complications that i know off (surprisingly given all of the other years of psychonautical exploration ive brought upon myself)

    However, at such high doses from quality powder after a period of time I developed a “pins and needles” sensation and numbness in my extremities.

    This consequently subsided with the cessation of my kratom ingestion respectively.

    In another case of a separate binge, I again sought medical treatment requesting a full physical checkup (as i do after i compulsively binge with any susbtance) my blood work yeilded results that i had poor kidney function.

    No liver damage as stated in the op

    Whether this was the result of kratom abuse or other substances i dont know, but i was assured that the numbers were a common occurrence seen in many patients and nothing to worry about. The doctor “chalked it up to” dehydration. I was negligible in following up with more blood work a month later as requested.

    Each time my use would span from several months to a couple years at a time daily over the last 15 years since the use of kratom became known to me.

    Speaking from my personal experience and my personal experience only; i suffer from no health complications stemming from long term, high dose kratom use.

    **This is not to discredit nor take lightly the existing evidence and experiences of those who have experienced complications. As with any substance and EVERY substance, the posed health threats can be and are very real! Again this is an account of MY personal experience with this substance**

    However...what i do know is that i would love a cocktail 3gms of green 3gms red and 3gms of white kratom powder washed down with a glass of orange juice right now.
    (This is too be taken literally, not to make light of the accounted health complications of fellow BL’s and many others)

    Stay safe. Get checked. If something doesnt feel right then it probably isnt right.
    Last edited by FungousSneeze; 29-11-2017 at 06:21.
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    I'm not surprised that Kratom is really bad for the liver and other organs.
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