Well Im glad u are willing to admit when u are mistaken-its a surprisingly rare quality, even when one is confronted with irrefutable proof to the contrary of one's original position.
I was half-expecting you would criticize me for making an "irrelevant distinction" between diphenoxylate and loperamide. But as I stated in my last post, the fact that diphen was found in this formula and not loperamide makes all the difference in the world in my book. If only loperamide was found, I think it would be impossible to attribute it as the cause of the apparent profound alleviation of withdrawal that this formula is capable of. But since it is the centrally acting diphenoxylate, I see no reason why just a high dose of diphen could not be the primary, or perhaps sole, substance which provides the withdrawal alleviating abilities of the chinese formula. It is also equally possible that there is another, and likely, uncommon opioid in this formula as well.
But once again, I have to stress that in the end, I dont think any of this matters. The very fact that this formula is so effective at completely alleviating all symptoms of opioid withdrawal, speaks to the absolute FACT that there is SOME opioid in thie formula. I am all but 100% certain that at this point, there are no known substances, other then opioids themselves, that have the ability to completely squash all symptoms of opioid withdrawal.
I just want to make sure u arent kidding yourself, and are aware that you are most certainly ingesting some unknown opioid or combo of opioids when taking this miracle "herbal formula".
On another note, I actually am starting to be convinced that you are not a shill for this company. As you pointed out, the company no longer offers this product, or any like it, so it would not make much sense to continue to advocate this formula. But I must ask, how are you not troubled by continuing to take this mystery formula, that not only has unknown contents, but whose manufacturer has CLEARLY made deliberate and repeated attempts to deceive his customers??
From what I know, methadone was confirmed to be in his original "herbal formula". When this was discovered, he reformulated it, as a new "completely herbal formula" and its now been confirmed that at the very least, the synthetic opioid, diphenoxylate has been slipped in this new formula. I just dont see any way around the fact that it has been proven beyond any doubt that this manufacturer has been deliberately and repeatedly lying to his customers for his own financial gain.
At what point, if not now, do you decide that such a person clearly cannot be trusted with anything, let alone the trust you are putting in him that he has not, and will not, put something potentially harmful in this formula.
My advice is that you immediately cease taking this product, or at the very least, engage in a rapid taper. You are continuing to trust your health with a person whose actions have been the very definition of deceptive, selfish, and unreliable. What more must he do???-DG
Daddysgone, I explained why I'm taking the formula in my last post...it's pretty sad to be in a desperate enough situation to mess with anything as potentially harmful as it might be...but it's a reality for many of us older "accidental addicts", i.e. chronic pain patients who were put on a high dosage opiate pain management program without having any knowledge of what opiates are & how they can end up taking away a whole lot more than just your pain. I didn't even have a computer yet when I was started on opiate meds 7 years ago. I owned a semi remote acreage up north & was always very physically active looking after family, animals & a large garden when I wasn't working out in even more remote mining & oil camps. I had never used or been the least bit interested in drugs. The few times the subject of addiction would come up I had the same foolish beliefs so many others still have...that it was just a weakness of character. I did, admittedly drink too much on occasion in younger years but I had no problems whatsoever in quitting that completely, which just further convinced me that addiction only happened to very weak and/or undisciplined people, never to anyone like me!
I was 55, when after years of trying pretty much every natural/alternative treatment , none of which helped, I was finally convinced by my R.N. sister and my doctor to begin a 24/7 opiate treatment plan. I was hesitant to do so not because I feared addiction, but because I was a purist if you will...I disliked the idea of ingesting ANY man made chemical...especially on a daily basis. But I was blown away by how well this stuff worked. In less than a year I went from being very nearly bedridden, to losing every pound I'd gained during my previous enforced inactivity, a perfect blood pressure reading, as well as riding my horses again and jogging several kms per day. My doctor, my family & friends were delighted to see such an amazing turnaround in me.
But by that time I had also realized that I was completely physically dependent on this stuff and I was very, very afraid. I was beginning to question whether I had the "strength of character" to quit. I bought my first computer at that time & taught myself how to use it~~~& that was what started the process of my learning more, much more about addiction than I could ever have imagined.
I spoke with my doctor about my concerns and he assured me that I was only "physically dependent" and not addicted...and that there was nothing wrong with needing to take this medication for the rest of my life, that many people needed to take something every day. I relaxed somewhat and things went pretty well until I sold our home and moved to my sisters' place in the city. And that's when the hell began in earnest.
I was unable to find a single doctor there who would take on an opiate dependent patient. I went through a forced oxycontin withdrawal and was still so sick & in so much pain after 3 weeks that I finally caved and asked to be put on the the methadone program, as that was the only opiate available to someone in my situation. I hated everything about MMT. It was a terrible med for me & my health deteriorated badly in the 14 months I was on it~~~so I felt incredibly lucky when I asked my MMT doctor(yup, that's one way you can get a doctor here!)to put me back on oxycontin he agreed to that. Then he left on a month long vacation, giving me a totally inadequate amount of oxycontin to see me through while he was gone. At the time I was concerned about the low dosage but I was so thrilled to have this opportunity to get off that toxic crap which had turned me into a barely functioning zombie for over a year that I wasn't going to argue about it. Besides, I had survived the oxycontin withdrawal, and even if I experienced some withdrawal as a result of not having enough oxy~~~so be it, because after all, as horrible as they are, nobody dies from opiate WDs, right?
Wrong, so totally wrong! It took a few days before the methadone WDs really kicked in, but when they did it was with a fury that totally stunned me. This was nothing like the oxy WDs I had gone through, this was downright vicious. I had just enough oxys to keep these WDs at bay for 4 out of 7 days each week. It was either that & somehow endure full blown WDs for the remaining 3 days or spread the oxys evenly throughout all 7 days and just feel very ill every day. I tried it both ways and the second time I went through the 3 days with no oxys at all, I had a stroke early in the morning of the third day. I didn't even go to the hospital because I had been to the ER the previous week and was treated like I was pond scum...just another another "drug seeking" addict. During the brief periods of time that I was able to function a little I started researching the whole matter of opiate WDs. What I learned shook my world.
I simply cannot believe that people, and especially doctors, continue to perpetuate the dangerous & wholly false idea that " opiate withdrawal may make you wish you were dead but it is NOT fatal"~~~ if you don't believe me, just go check out how many people have died as a direct result of forced opiate WDs in prisons~~~especially when the opiate was, yup, you guessed it, methadone. And there have been many, many more deaths from this except they get written as having been caused by heart attacks or strokes...which are of course the DIRECT cause of death, but the undeniable truth remains that these heart attacks or strokes would never have happened had the person not been forced to endure opiate WDs without medical supervision. Period.
Anyway, I am in a very high risk group and it is not safe for me to put myself into the degree of WDs it would take to actually lower my tolerance. I've certainly attempted just that many times and if I had the luxury of being able to stay home for a week or two I probably would be able to get my tolerance down some. But there is also the fact that my doctor never did increase my dosage to an adequate amount after my switch from methadone...so it's just been a battle from the get go. If I hadn't discovered kratom I would have been forced to go back on methadone because I would have been coming in for early refills & that's what they do here. And kratom, as many of us have learned, is NOT the lightweight a lot of people seem to think it is, because among other things it most definitely RAISES your tolerance! This is very obvious when you switch back to pills after having spent a period of time on kratom, even just the plain leaf.
Hmmm, how did this get so long...oh well, I might as well respond to your comment about there being an opiate responsible for the WD alleviating properties of the formula. I've never really doubted that at all, Daddysgone. I was open to the possibility that it might be an obscure herbal opiate/opioid, or maybe something like a blue lotus extract, but I always thought there was something in there. That part didn't bother me at all~~~I just was, and still am intensely curious about WHAT opiate/opioid it was because the bottom line for me or anyone else wanting a way to quit/taper whatever we were on, is that none of us has ever come across ANY other opiate that does not give you any of the usual opiate effects and most importantly that is so easy to taper! It also eliminates ALL cravings and is very long lasting...not 24 hours but for me it lasts a good 12 hours. It's the closest damn thing to a "silver bullet" I've ever seen, so yeah, I want to know what's in it! Something like this, made in a respectable lab & with no weird or questionable ingredients would basically change the way addiction is treated.
I started my present regime with 6 of the capsules per day and today, day 11, I'm down to just 2 per day. I'm still taking a bit of oxy, just about 1/5 or less than my usual dose but I am taking it on an "as needed" basis only. ( Unfortunately the CF5 has NO pain relieving properties at all....another strange thing for an opiate.) But it certainly potentiates the oxy so that a very small dose gives me better analgesia than my full dosage alone would do.
I don't like the very dry mouth or the constipation it causes, but other than that I haven't heard of anyone having any more serious side effects. I did feel kind of weird on it at the higher dose in the beginning but not anymore. I'm also using some Baclofen this time which seems to be smoothing out any "rough edges".
I'm just at the tip of a huge demographic that will be coming more & more into focus soon, that of older people with with varying underlying health conditions who have become physically dependent/addicted to opiates. Iatrogenic addiction.
