The Big & Dandy ++++ Thread

[azzazza !?]

some perspective: using the Bible to support ones claims does not give them any weight whatsoever. Its not what the Bible is meant to do; presenting it as 'evidence' is the fundamentalistic turn. Which i'd say is rather blasphemous; considering God is infinite, and so thus is his Word.
Now then what is the Bible? It is meant to guide you along the way. all Holy Scriptures are. They are purposefully written to encompass the whole of human experience. It can thus never be concrete/objective. You can find 'evidence' for any (honest) spiritual proposition in the Bible. And you can follow those paths your spirituality in its manifested form takes you on. And they will guide you to deeper knowledge. But please don't go about confining such a magnificent Scipture to only one possible interpretation. Its beauty lies precisely in the open space it leaves for God to manifest (Heidegger would call it "the nothing nothings, and the world worlds") A spiritual path is in its essence the most individual experience possible. Christianity calls this your very personal bond with God (again a very central theme). What you read is meant to guide you. There is no right or wrong here. The Bible contains no judgement except your own over yourself. Same goes for God.
A take on fundamentalism you ask? Fear i say. fear of change; changing oneself . fear of letting oneself go into this uniquely individually finetuned learning experience. Fear of coming to be truly alone (honest!) before God with ones beliefs about him. for he is truly the ground on which one stands. no more others to hide behind. the fundamentalist tries to 'stave' his belief to others. By which he effectly halts its development. he tries telling himself he found The Answer. But he did not. there would be no need to prove it to others if he truly did. There is no one answer that fits all. God is no confection. How could He be? He manifests himself is our most individual and intimate desire. If one found God, one is content. One radiates his belief. One IS and lives his belief. One has no need to prove it to himself by means of the external agreement of others, or attack others for walking their own paths. One smiles upon it; for they too, one day, will find what they are looking for. One does not 'build' ones belief around him; a wall; a shield from God's myriad forms. the Truth comes from within. The mystical quest is a personal quest; and is bound to get very lonely at times. beliefs will transform, some will fall. but there is one thing that will stay with you; and that is the path itself; continuously dynamic, ever winding, infinite.

edit: in the words of a more or less known videogame character: nothing is true, everything is permitted.

 

[azzazza !?]

strictly speaking one's whole life is a +4. You just don't know it (yet). people so blindingly stare at the peak, they tend to forget the valley; which just as much makes the mountain a mountain as the mountain itself.

more perspective

 

[BiG StroOnZ]

You're right, I've got plenty of time to read books. And I do. But I don't have time to read every book available about every subject I find interesting. I never asked you to give me a detailed lecture about the interrelationship between psychedelics and scripture. I merely asked for a little evidence to back up the claims that you posted earlier in this thread. That's all that anyone here has asked you for, and what have you given us in return? Dismissive, flippant recommendations that we go out and educate ourselves before so much as considering speaking with you? Well thanks, it's really improved my understanding of the subject matter.

If you had no interest in elucidating the logic behind your assertions then why did you bother posting them? And if they're so obvious then why aren't you willing to explain them? And you're calling me lazy? Give me a fucking break, man.

I pointed you to another thread, where it contained a long and thorough post about this exact topic. Since I know you immediately dismiss my posts without reading them, you would have went over there a long time ago and checked it out. I even gave some evidence here, and explained it slightly, you were just too slow to pick up on it. That's not my fault.

He lost this argument long ago...

"Show your sources"

"Here"

"I don't have time to read them"

"You lose"

All hail straw man arguments.

 

[An Iz]

If you can get a +4 on any drug at all, ever:
you can get it in your sober life.

-an iz

 

[delphium]

I pointed you to another thread, where it contained a long and thorough post about this exact topic. Since I know you immediately dismiss my posts without reading them, you would have went over there a long time ago and checked it out. I even gave some evidence here, and explained it slightly, you were just too slow to pick up on it. That's not my fault.

"Show your sources"

"Here"

"I don't have time to read them"

"You lose"

All hail straw man arguments.

I read your other thread. It contained several of the same bible verses you posted here and some dubious implications regarding the garb of Cardinals/Bishops being intended as an imitation of Amanita mushrooms–all thoroughly unconvincing stuff. And to tell you the truth, I really don't think it's because I'm "slow."

"OMG look at deez stained glass windows there's totally shroomz on them Jesus and dem disciples were eaten mad capz yo!"

Ugh.

 

[An Iz]

But his avatar's better than yours, and he seems to have a third tier command of meame's, whereas all you've got is text.

 

[BiG StroOnZ]

I read your other thread. It contained several of the same bible verses you posted here and some dubious implications regarding the garb of Cardinals/Bishops being intended as an imitation of Amanita mushrooms–all thoroughly unconvincing stuff. And to tell you the truth, I really don't think it's because I'm "slow."

"OMG look at deez stained glass windows there's totally shroomz on them Jesus and dem disciples were eaten mad capz yo!"

Ugh.

Not my fault you cant read or make connections, that you insist on undermining it all as "dubious implications that are all thoroughly unconvincing"

You cant catch the symbolism because you don't know what to look for, and if after reading that thread (which I know you didn't, you most likely just skimmed through it. so you could come back here and rant some more) especially after the fine example of the Canterbury Psalter, you still are only left with the opinion of it "being thoroughly unconvincing." Then that's truly unfortunate for you.

"OMG look at deez stained glass windows there's totally shroomz on them Jesus and dem disciples were eaten mad capz yo!"

Most unintelligent thing you said yet so far, with the worst attempt at trying to appear somewhat funny.

 

[An Iz]

Do you feel like you know your theories 100% so that anyone who doubts them is kind of stupid? Are you like really certain of your religious epiphs concerning the specifics of the name brand churchs' ancient revelations?

 

[BiG StroOnZ]

Do you feel like you know your theories 100% so that anyone who doubts them is kind of stupid? Are you like really certain of your religious epiphs concerning the specifics of the name brand churchs' ancient revelations?

They aren't theories, they only appear to be theories because you haven't seen the plethora of data that's available. I don't think people who doubt them are stupid, I just think most people are unable to change their opinions or beliefs easily because either they don't want to or think something is too "outlandish" to be possible.

They aren't religious epiphanies, I didn't just wake up one day and say, "manna is a psilocybe, Jesus is the Sun and the Amanita Muscaria mushroom." I am quite certain that this is the case though, because when you study most religions in the world. You will find that many of their deities are actual anthropomorphisms of various objects; both in the celestial bodies and here on Earth (As Above, So Below). Again, you won't catch onto this unless you can connect the visual symbolism.

 

[Thou]

It's a blessing to be there. Only a handful of times, once while peaking on 500ug of lsd, but only after I smoked synthetic nn-dmt. Not even going to try and explain the visions and auditory hallucinations I've experienced with that encounter.

The second more recent in memory was a few weeks ago on my birthday. Using S-Isomer K I tookk a roaring bump on 35mg 2ct-2 (first trial run) after all my 'first time using lsd friends' had left so I had little responsibilities to trip sit (even though I was at a plus 3 they were just new to the experience, maybe 180-250ug max). I believe the dosage was somewhere between 150- and 200, while watching Amelie and I was out there, for lack of more elegant phrasing.

 

[f1ct]

How does it feel?

It feels like you've been given a gift that you don't deserve and can never repay, something for which you are so totally undeserving that you're just brought to tears by the sheer magnitude of beauty.

I still struggle to integrate that experience.

People talk about psychedelic drugs providing these amazing, life-changing trips and then they expect to make immediate changes to their lives, they make resolutions like it's the first day of January. And that's not how it works. That trip happened years ago and I'm still, little-by-little, adjusting myself to live in a way that harmonizes with what was revealed to me.

Anyhoo. You'll know it when you see it.

The dosage was small. It wasn't even all that visual. I could have been sober. I cried, lots. I can't really say a whole lot more than that. It wasn't much like what I would have expected. ... when you don't know what you're seeking you'll find something you can't put a name to. Good luck, seekers

 

[Chips]

Thanks a lot for this thread.
I didn't remember this ++++ from shulgin. I experienced this state one week ago, i did put some informations in 4-ho-met thread:

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=250897&page=13

I just obtain it with 50mg of modafinil the morning and 10 mg of 4-ho-met the evening.
I don't think you can "force" this state by taking huge quantity of drug. I still don't know what makes me experience it.

If you are not sure you experience this state, it means you didn't. I was crying everytime i was thinking of what it reveals me.
This is not just ego loss, shulgin explain it quite well. f1ct description is good too: a gift you don't deserve. But you need to get into it to understand what it means.

That's true that when you "came back" it's difficult to came back with what you learn from this state. But i'm glad i've experienced it anyway.

After some reading, i definitely think that religions are link to this state of conscience. And the guys behind these religions could have simply used the same way as us.


Look for the gospel of thomas:
Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he
finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes
troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."
"Whoever finds the interpretation of these
sayings will not experience death."

And what Lao tzu explain:
"When you realize where you come from,
you naturally become tolerant,
disinterested, amused,
kindhearted as a grandmother,
dignified as a king.
Immersed in the wonder of the Tao,
you can deal with whatever life brings you,
and when death comes, you are ready."

 

[nearjat]

How does it feel?

It feels like you've been given a gift that you don't deserve and can never repay, something for which you are so totally undeserving that you're just brought to tears by the sheer magnitude of beauty.

I still struggle to integrate that experience.

People talk about psychedelic drugs providing these amazing, life-changing trips and then they expect to make immediate changes to their lives, they make resolutions like it's the first day of January. And that's not how it works. That trip happened years ago and I'm still, little-by-little, adjusting myself to live in a way that harmonizes with what was revealed to me.

Anyhoo. You'll know it when you see it.

The dosage was small. It wasn't even all that visual. I could have been sober. I cried, lots. I can't really say a whole lot more than that. It wasn't much like what I would have expected. ... when you don't know what you're seeking you'll find something you can't put a name to. Good luck, seekers

You know, I always thought that a "plus 4" was a level of intensity. I related it to "ego death".

Now I'm realizing that the LSD trip that has sent me on a year long adventure in my head, that has reshaped my outlook on life and I'd say saved me from selfish suicide WAS a plus four.

My friend and I both experienced this, only two hits. Like you said, it was hardly even visual for me. Just pure, non-chemical, never ending bliss. At times I've seriously felt guilty for having this experience when others haven't had the chance.

I feel like I've come to a nice little realization here Time to stop telling people how awesome acid is, apparently I was just the right person, at the right time of my life, with the right people, who were in the right time in their lives, in the right place, in the right place in time. It was right.

 

[Recept]

You know, I always thought that a "plus 4" was a level of intensity.

Nope, it is the only level that doesn't actually relate to the intensity of effects. According to Shulgin: PLUS FOUR (++++) - A rare and precious transcendental state, which has been called a 'peak experience', a 'religious experience,' 'divine transformation,' a 'state of Samadhi' and many other names in other cultures. It is not connected to the +1, +2, and +3 of the measuring of a drug's intensity.

The only time I experienced hints of this state was actually on a comedown of a 2.5g Psilocybe Cubensis mushrooms trip. The peak was far gone at the time, and this experience caught me completely by surprise.

 

[dread]

My +4 experience was on shrooms & rue.

 

[f1ct]

The descriptions of epiphanies over at awakening.net do a pretty good job describing a +4. It really is an ineffable thing though... no amount of words can really do it justice. It's just so qualitatively different from anything I'd ever experienced and so much different from what I would have expected it to be. +4's do happen just spontaneously, sometimes, without drugs involved. It's such a blessing, and despite the afterglow (basically permanent), it left me feeling alienated that I had experienced this thing that I wanted desperately to share, but literally COULD NOT share except in the vaguest of metaphors. I wish more people would have these sorts of experiences. I wish I could meet someone who had a similar thing, but we wouldn't even be able to talk about it. We could just say "Yes." and exchange flabbergasted, perplexed facial expressions.

Heraclitus, I believe, put it well when he said that to humans, things are good and bad, and to God, everything is beautiful and just. It was as though I was granted permission to see the universe through the eyes of god, to see everything -- EVERYTHING -- as beautiful and just. The horror of world melded with the beauty of the lives of us who are blessed to not have to experience starvation and genocide. There was a total breakdown of contradictions, the mere BEAUTY OF EXISTENCE -- the presence of anything at all, it overpowered every horror that we could possibly experience, and when I cried, I cried because I understood the absolute necessity of evil, the necessity of destruction and entropy, and I cried because I understood that even for those who are subjected to so much injustice, god loves them with more power than we can possibly comprehend. It was infinite and sweet and terrible.

Ugh. Words do this absolutely no justice. Good luck, seekers!

 

[azzazza !?]

Heraclitus, I believe, put it well when he said that to humans, things are good and bad, and to God, everything is beautiful and just.

such true words.

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

only religion and/or philosophy seem to provide topoi for 'sharing' these kind of experiences; albeit never very extensively

 

[f1ct]

Religious texts are helpful in attempting to explain, but I still tend to think that attempts to transcribe the word of god are bound to failure. Human languages just.. they're not set up in a way that can deal with these sorts of experiences.

 

[azzazza !?]

i find the grand philosophical volumes like Levinas' Totatility and Infinity or Heideggers Being and Time to be 'useful' in some way. They never attempt to 'capture' the experience itself though. its more of a 'pointing towards'. through making the highest possible abstractions of it, the language becomes instrumentalized, no longer descriptive, but mechanisms, metaprogramming, a tool carving out paths through the jungle to bring curious explorers to the very edge of the Abyss. the experience itself however just cannot be captured. words themselves are the lines, delineations, de-finings that aren't really there. as Heidegger says; "[in language] dasein walks the boundaries of the infinite". the philosophers try to overcome the limits of language through a technical vocabulary which speaks in the most unfathomable paradoxes and abstractions, in an attempt to transcend language through itself.

 

[f1ct]

Let's keep this thread going.

To others who have had +4 mystical / religious type experiences (precipitated by psychedelics or not) -- How have you dealt with that experience? How have you tried to relate it to other people? How have you attempted to integrate it into your life?

These are extraordinary occurrences. Let's hear about it.