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The Big & Dandy ++++ Thread

oh, its the different plateaus, never heard them called +s before, sorry, but yeah, ive been to the 4th plateau before

While it could be and probably is just different lingo for different sub-groups, the Shulgin Scale (+/-) shouldn't be confused with the 'plateau's of DXM intoxication, which bear some resemblance but have a different scope on things.
 
For me, a ++++ is a one time deal. It happened on my first ever psychedelic experience. It was on DXM, but nonetheless, it was definately a ++++. I was on my bed the whole time, I had no clue where I was, who I was, when I was, nothing. And it was complete bliss, nothing has ever compared to that, not mush, L, or E

And before the flames start, I know DXM is inferior to L, but my point still stands.

Wait, what was I talking about


I tend to agree based off what the scale states...I've only exp. LSD,Mushrooms & XTC. I can confidently say my only +4 was the first time on LSD. Of course I've had many +1's,+2's & 3's as well.

Would it be fair to say most +4 exp's probably happen during the first time psych exp for most?
 
Hi Darkmatter

Well, I would. As those delusions are created by the user, by influencing his suggestible mind. That's basically hypnosis.

It's not a placebo effect. It's programming the mind and consciously changing your mindset. Like hypnosis during a state of trance (altered state of consciousness). To reach a state of trance you basically reprogram your mind. As the psychedelic experience is similar to trance and you influence the direction of the trip by consciously or unconsciously programming your mind, it can potentiate the intensity. It would also be possible to decrease the intensity of the trip. By making the necessariy adjustments to your mind which make it calm down etc.

I do not want to continue this discussion, as you are mainly arguing about semantics. Delusions are by nature not conscious. And then you carry on saying that the effect is not placebo as the experience is consciously altered by the user. [!] I hope you see your contradiction.

Finally, it would be great for a subsequent discussion (not here in BL, but I would welcome any PM from you) if you could read a little more about hypnosis and self suggestion, which are different, and there are more than a few shades of grey in the middle.

This said, in a ++++ state you are generally powerless to consciously alter what is happening to you. I do not have a vast experience in the field (far from it) but from my own experiences and the trustful reports, of which there are a few in this thread, allow me to say this with some confidence.

[I have to add that even in strong +++ you are powerless to consciously change the direction of the trip, for better or for worst]
 
I have found my only two ++++ experiences that weren't with n,n-dmt were with a combination of nitrous and tryptamines.

I do feel though that these were only brief glimpses into what a plus ++++ experience can be because they were only experienced during the high of nitrous, my first time being on a hefty dose of LSD and mushrooms, in which after I had done the nitrous I was visited by an alien like being who instilled a sense of cosmic oneness in me. The other time was just recently, was on LSD also combined with nitrous, and I felt like my being had been unplugged and replugged into some sort of circuit of time and I had existed briefly outside the realm of time for about five minutes, which was in itself the most bizarre mindset I have been in for a while (after coming back though I had extreme depersonalization which for me was very unpleasant at the time, and has made me wary to try nitrous again)
 
I read one of my two year old posts in this thread, and man, my views on psychedelics have changed a LOT. Kind of depressing, I sounded so joyful haha. But also kind of insane so no quarrel.
 
I no longer "revere" them like some type of special sacrament, and I no longer think they are going to be the catalyst for any real revolutions in thought. The ideas I adopted after getting into psychedelics, in retrospect, really fueled a lot of shitty decisions, shitty relationships, and a generally deluded manic mindset.

I still like to trip, but just for the sake of tripping now. I think it's fun. And I can only speak for myself, but I feel like it should stay that way outside the hands of psychotherapists.
 
^ Thanks, it is inreresting :)
Though psychedelics are different for me.
 
I no longer "revere" them like some type of special sacrament, and I no longer think they are going to be the catalyst for any real revolutions in thought. The ideas I adopted after getting into psychedelics, in retrospect, really fueled a lot of shitty decisions, shitty relationships, and a generally deluded manic mindset.

I still like to trip, but just for the sake of tripping now. I think it's fun. And I can only speak for myself, but I feel like it should stay that way outside the hands of psychotherapists.
I agree to some extent.

it depends on person to person but psychedelics lie on a fine line between being the ignition to intelectual innovation or the fuel to just another wackjob. I mean really, give anyone who's easily impressionable psychedelics and they could end up truelly believing in almost anything. I know a few people like this.

I think the fact says more about the person using them than the psychedelics themselves.

obviously tripping can be profound on ideas, and add a depth to your mind that you possibly didnt even know is there but I think this only happens to a certain kind of people

for most, ive noticed in the end, it just deludes them into believing whatever ideology they come up with to escape their problems.
 
for most, ive noticed in the end, it just deludes them into believing whatever ideology they come up with to escape their problems.

Living in nor-cal I'd have to largely agree with you there. I think its a very common occurrence for someones first ++++, or first meaningful psychedelic experience, etc to cause these 'revelation' or 'life-changing' thoughts.

But I think many people take it far beyond that step, not realizing that they are at this point just beating a dead horse by searching for that feeling again. You need to adapt if you are going to keep on using psychedelics. You need to integrate and adapt.
 
Is anybody around there who already had a +4?

I have some questions about the nature of a +4
Does one feel during the trip that this will end in a life changing +4?
Is it possible to direct a trip towards a +4 if (it’s strong enough) or does it simply overwhelm one?
Is it possible to avoid a +4 during a heavy trip, if you’re completely in peace with your actual life?

To be honest, your probably not even aware that you are on drugs and it is making you feel this way... Kind of hard to think about which drugs your on when your floating through the void just in a state of simple existence.

Directing a trip towards a +4? Part of the whole thing is taking enough to get you to the state, and then being able to let go of everything and embrace the chaos forming around you. With something like DMT, go into it with the intention of learning and generally just finding some answers to things.... Ask, have these questions in your mind and then smoke it, and I have found my queries to usually be answered in profound fashion.

Being in peace with your actual life will help you get to a +4.
 
I do not want to continue this discussion, as you are mainly arguing about semantics. Delusions are by nature not conscious. And then you carry on saying that the effect is not placebo as the experience is consciously altered by the user. [!] I hope you see your contradiction.

Where do delusions come from? They come from the users unconscious, and they are a result of the mindset which can be altered consciously.
And if you are in trance then that's not a placebo, but an altered state of consciousness. It can be measured in a MRT.

This said, in a ++++ state you are generally powerless to consciously alter what is happening to you.

In trance voluntary actions may be poor or missing. Just like you described one property of the ++++ experience. Trance states may also happen without the user consciously doing something. But it's more likely to happen if the mind of the user is in the right configuration.

If you see any contradictions there, then you most probably simply didn't understand it.

Another aspect of (deep) trance:
An out-of-body experience in which one feels they have passed out of the body into another state of being, a rapture, an ecstasy.

So what's so devious about assuming that the same mechanisms which put the mind into trance can push someone from a +++ into a ++++ experience, or at least make it more likely to happen?
 
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yeah the thread title encourages ego inflation

gotta escape the ego...

Yes, suppress the self. Deny part of your being, for what use is an identity? [/sarcasm]

Shall I adjust the title to simple "++++ (Plus Four Experiences)" ?

I also think we should have a thread about Shulgins scale in general.
I like the creative title. Keeps the magic in psychs. Perhaps what we need around here is more education; as you suggested, in the form of a thread on Shulgin's scale (and possibly alternatives which people might understand more readily).
 
yeah the thread title encourages ego inflation

gotta escape the ego...

Doesn't seem unusual that some egos might get inflated by certain experiences. Though it's kinda ironic that the ego gets inflated by the experience during the breakthrough/after its death.
It sounds somehow related to the BPM IV matrix Stanislav Grof describes. The matrices he describes are mental structures which are related to experiences as a fetus and during birth which were imprinted into the mind. During a trip one may go through those structures again, which then shape the experience one has during a trip. The BPM IV matrix is related to birth and is associated with the death-rebirth struggle / ego-death.

A person who has overcome the enormous trials of the second and third
matrices and is enjoying the experience of rebirth associated with the
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fourth matrix usually has triumphant feelings. These can be embodied by
heroic figures from mythology, such as St. George slaying the dragon,
Theseus defeating the Minotaur, or baby Hercules finishing off the dangerous
constrictor snakes that attacked him at birth. Many people report visions
of brilliant light with a supernatural quality radiating divine
intelligence or experience God as pure spiritual energy permeating all.

Others describe a translucent, heavenly blue haze, beautiful rainbows, or
spectacular displays of intricate patterns resembling peacock feathers.
There can be glorious images of divine epiphany featuring angels and other
celestial beings. This is also a very appropriate time for the appearance of
the Great Mother Goddesses of different cultures, radiating love and protection—
Virgin Mary, Isis, Cybele, or Lakshmi.
Occasionally, spiritual rebirth can be associated with a very special
form of experience—the Atman-Brahman union described in ancient
Hindu texts. Here the person feels a deep connection with the innermost
spiritual core of his or her being. The illusion of the individual self {jiva)
fades away and the person enjoys reunion with his or her divine Self
(Atman), which is also the Universal Self (Brahman), the cosmic source of
all existence.
This is a direct and immediate contact with the Beyond
Within, with God, or with what the Upanishads refer to as Tat tvam asi
("Thou art That"). This realization of the fundamental identity of the individual
consciousness with the creative principle of the universe is one of
the most profound experiences a human being can have. Spiritual rebirth,
as experienced through BPM IV, can re-open the gateway to the oceanic
ecstasy of BPM I, and through it we experience cosmic unity.

The individual who has successfully completed the death-rebirth sequence
feels a sense of deep relaxation, quiet excitement, serenity, and inner
peace. However, on occasion, the process does not run its full course
and results in a temporary state resembling mania. The individual involved
may feel overly excited, hyperactive, and euphoric to the point of a painful
caricature. For example, after an incomplete breakthrough into BPM IV
and the first onslaught of cosmic insights, some people run around loudly
proclaiming their revelations, attempting to share them indiscriminately
with those around them. One might see them proselytize, ask for special
honors, try to arrange big celebrations, and make grandiose plans for changing
the world.

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This frequently happens in spontaneous psychospiritual crises where
understanding, support, and guidance are usually not available. When the
discovery of one's divinity remains attached to the body ego, it can take the
form of a psychotic delusion of grandeur instead of a genuine mystical insight.

This kind of behavior indicates that this person has not fully connected
with BPM IV and has to work through and integrate some
problematic elements from BPM III. After these residual negative aspects
of BPM III are fully resolved, rebirth is experienced in its pure form, as quiet
rapture with serenity and tranquility. This state is completely satisfactory
and self-fulfilling and does not require any immediate action in the
world.

from "The Holotropic Mind" by Stanislav Grof
 
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I had a ++++ at the age of 18 on a heroic dose of LSD. (higher than 1200ug). It was the first time i took such a huge those. It was "intensive"... :) and everybody who did +1mg either, knows that intensive is in no way approtpriate for how extrem it was. I came through the "trip", ( those hours I was in a state of superexistince), relatively well. Of course it was tough, but theres nothing else you can do, just let go of everything and let your whole being get dissolved by the power of thousands of micrograms. I dont want to describe what I've experienced on the trip. This is impossible anyway. Afterwards, it was kinda hard to integrate an experience of these dimensions (also literally)...

I have to add, that it is possible to reach a ++++ without any drugs, at any given time. It is a basic function of what makes us humans.

And another thing on this subject: Quantum Mechanics is pointless if you never had a ++++ experience!!! ;) ;)

peace...
 
IMO, there is a difference between an out-of-control, intense, mindblowing (+++) and a (++++).

The two are so far apart once you hit a (++++) you'll understand there is no comparison.
 
I consider this ++++, not sure if it qualifies.

About 7 years ago when I was 19, I had just got out of jail after ~2 weeks. I was quite crazy at this time, real depressed, trying to figure out what to do after high school/figure out what to do at all.

I spent a lot of time in jail thinking (obviously) and just had a general "what the fuck am I supposed to do with myself someone please help me" feeling. While being transfered to court one day I had a conversation with another inmate. Effectively he told me his story of doing/selling every drug known to man blahblahblah, and one day he was in jail and was praying. He said he felt something like a beam of light hit him from above and he felt absolute peace. Quite different, far and away more powerful than any high he had ever experienced or could hope to experience. He said he felt at absolute peace and that all was right with the world, or something to that effect. It has been a while so I'm a little fuzzy.

So I get out and have it in my head that I need to try MDMA and it will "fix" me. (well that and every other drug on earth, this is right at the start of my fiend stage) I remember the pill still, a white Lexus, which when I ended up looking it up was rather bunk. LOW mdma content. I took it the night after I got out when I was supposed to meet up with my friend. It's around 2 hours after I have taken this and I'm not feeling shit. Meet up with him and smoke a bowl. Well I definatly start to feel something, and make him back about four bowls in a row. I take the last two to the head. This succeeds in kicking in the low amount of MDMA in the pill, and since it's my first time, I am rolling nuts at this point.

STUPIDLY decide to drive my car to another friends house. Am going down the freeway in my town and a certain part in a song hits (i still get chills when I here it to this day.) I remember thinking "this is it. this is the best most beautiful feeling I will ever feel in my entire life", I was in heaven.

Or so I thought. JUST like what the other guy in jail described to me happened. Felt like a beam of light hit me from above and I was instantly propelled so far beyond a simple chemical high. My mind was cleared, no drug foggyness, nothing. I just felt ABSOLUTE peace. It is hard to describe, but it's like there was a voice that was in my head, but not in my head. I experienced something talking to me, using my first name (possibly my last, my first I remember for sure), telling me that everything would be okay. All the questions I had been asking, to not worry about. Everything will turn out okay, just keep doing what you are doing and everything will be fine.

It seemed like it was a rather short experience, and faded back into what I previously thought was the most amazing feeling ever. The MDMA high felt benign by comparision, like it didn't even exist. I mean I was still totally fucked up, but it felt like nothing for a few moments. I somehow had made it many miles down the freeway (doing 70+ I'm sure), much further than I had meant to go.

I abused the fuck out of "ecstacy" (never really getting many clean pills) for a while. I don't really think I was trying to recreate that feeling, I'm not sure what I was doing. Nowadays, I have NO real desire to ever use MDMA again. I have got all I belive I can get from it allready. Now simliarly structured chemicals.... ;-)

I honestly didn't even get much out of my experience until years and years later. It has now become a constant in my life though. When things feel so fucking shitty I'd rather be dead, I think back on that experience, and how pure and true it was, and realize life is gonna be okay.

Will be with me until the day I die, and there is no way to express in words how it felt to people, especially people who don't use drugs.
 
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