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    Quote Originally Posted by webbykevin View Post
    Try upping the dose !
    Nah. All upping the dose does is make be drool for a minute and talk jibberish. All I get is fractal visuals.
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    It takes more than just intense euphoria and a sense of well being to make a plus four experience.
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    I have had a few ++++'s.

    Once with 50mg 4HOMET, once with 12mg 2C-P, once with 18mg 4HODET and most recently with 30mg 4ACODIPT + 40mg 2CD + 30mg 2CC + 30mg MXE.

    Tryptamines for the win !

    edit: During all these experiences I was watching Twin Peaks, a hugely emotional show for me. I believe it could have something to do with achieving ++++
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    Quote Originally Posted by fridgebuzz View Post
    IMO, there is a difference between an out-of-control, intense, mindblowing (+++) and a (++++).

    The two are so far apart once you hit a (++++) you'll understand there is no comparison.
    Very true. I have been tripping for a good 15 years, probably more than 500 times on a variety of compounds and only recently did I experience a ++++ state for more than a few short minutes. I thought I had gotten a few ++++ trips in the past but nope they were just extreme +++. ++++ is something that can't be imagined until you have been there.

    The combo that did if for me was 4-aco-dmt + 25i-nbome.
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    Not to keep going on about Twin Peaks, but does anyone who has seen it also believe ++++ experience relate to the White Lodge and Black Lodge ?



    This is what Windom Earle (the bad guy) says about the White/black Lodge:

    Once upon a time, there was a place of great goodness, called the White Lodge. Gentle fawns gamboled there amidst happy, laughing spirits. The sounds of innocence and joy filled the air. And when it rained, it rained sweet nectar that infused one's heart with a desire to live life in truth and beauty. Generally speaking, a ghastly place, reeking of virtue's sour smell. Engorged with the whispered prayers of kneeling mothers, mewling newborns, and fools, young and old, compelled to do good without reason ... But, I am happy to point out that our story does not end in this wretched place of saccharine excess. For there's another place, its opposite: A place of almost unimaginable power, chock full of dark forces and vicious secrets. No prayers dare enter this frightful maw. The spirits there care not for good deeds or priestly invocations, they're as likely to rip the flesh from your bone as greet you with a happy "good day." And if harnessed, these spirits in this hidden land of unmuffled screams and broken hearts would offer up a power so vast that its bearer might reorder the Earth itself to his liking.

    The Black Lodge is :

    the shadow-self of the White Lodge. The legend says that every spirit must pass through there on the way to perfection. There, you will meet your own shadow self. My people call it 'The Dweller on the Threshold' ... But it is said, if you confront the Black Lodge with imperfect courage, it will utterly annihilate your soul.

    Touches on some fundamental ideas, imo.
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    Does anyone know if a +++++ is possible?

    Maybe do some nitrous and smoke DMT while already at the peak of ++++?
    Last edited by Synaptic Gap; 24-08-2012 at 12:55.
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    haha nice to see someone else totally engulfed by Lynch's world.

    Debate could go on endless about this, I just like to think about it. And also, if you watch TP tripping you'll realize: David Lynch is a real Genius. Obviously he is not a scientist, but using words/colors/sounds he portrays a world that is so "right". Really difficult to put into words but the fact that it makes sense while you're tripping balls is pretty out there, considering it is written for a sober TV audience.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synaptic Gap View Post
    Does anyone know if a +++++ is possible?

    Maybe do some nitrous and smoke DMT while already at the peak of ++++?
    a ++++ isn't excactly determined by strenght (at least if you go with what shulgin said). a ++++ is a possibly life changing spiritual experience. you cannot really force having one. so thinking about a "+++++" doesn't make sense, either it's a +++ (fullon effects) or a ++++.
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    Bluelighter shroomyboom's Avatar
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    I'm not very experienced with the shulgin rating system other than ++++ is strongest I guess. I think I may have reached it the other day with 4-aco-dmt. I was rendered speechless, everything was visuals. And for a good 30 minutes my mind was running so fast that I had this insane moment of realization that it seemed like I had just figured out everything there was to know in the universe and that there wasn't really any point in being alive anymore.

    I didn't get suicidal or anything like that. Far from it, I was filled with the most extreme feeling of contentment I've ever felt. And of course, I didn't learn everything in the universe. I can hardly remember what happened or what I thought at the time but it was just so completely breathtaking that I feel it was some sort of breakthrough. I did learn two things from the experience, I feel 30x better than I did before self esteem wise. And, I am completely in love with this substance.
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    Bluelighter Ligaturd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shroomyboom View Post
    And for a good 30 minutes my mind was running so fast that I had this insane moment of realization that it seemed like I had just figured out everything there was to know in the universe and that there wasn't really any point in being alive anymore.

    I didn't get suicidal or anything like that. Far from it, I was filled with the most extreme feeling of contentment I've ever felt. And of course, I didn't learn everything in the universe. I can hardly remember what happened or what I thought at the time but it was just so completely breathtaking that I feel it was some sort of breakthrough. I did learn two things from the experience, I feel 30x better than I did before self esteem wise. And, I am completely in love with this substance.
    I had a trip similar to this on the peak, it was on a 1/4 oz of mushrooms and it was profoundly visual....everything in my vision looked as if it had a sepia filter over it and my world was covered in strange earthy fractals, the likes of which I have never been able to replicate. The absence of colourful visuals was quite odd; just a filter of orange and grey tones over everything.

    I remember feeling completely terrified curled up in the fetal position and being bombarded with images flashing almost too fast to comprehend but it was as if I was looking through the eyes of countless human beings at many different points in history, I couldn't even focus on much detail in any of these flashes but I had a strong sense of what it all was. I came to the conclusion that my own experiences in life doesn't mean much of the grand scheme of things and it made me feel utterly insignificant; realizing that my own life only has value to myself and the few people that I am close to. This doesn't sound like anything ground breaking but it was just reinforced to an amazing extent and I thought to myself that If I killed myself right then and there it really wouldn't matter at all in the grand scheme of things. Once I accepted that I was overcome with a massive euphoria and felt utterly at peace with the thought of killing myself. This trip was followed by a massive case of depression for about 3 months.

    It taught me that psychedelics really aren't something to mess with, i gained a lot of respect for psychedelics and am very careful of them to this day. I was about 16 when this happened, Psychedelics can be abused and not everybody is going to have "realizations" that are healthy and within reason, you can have a trip that will teach you a lot about yourself and show you how you can improve your life and you can also have an equally intense experience fulled with life changing thought patterns that can be extremely unhealthy mentally and can stick with you.

    At that time in my life I was very stupid and self destructive and that was probably a catalyst to the bad trip that I had which left me in such a bad way; although for 6 months after that trip I stopped abusing substances for the longest time and was the healthiest I had ever been. So besides wanting to kill myself and feeling ok with killing myself I was able to pull something good out of the trip, I just had to suppress the delusions that came with the trip.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagseed View Post
    a ++++ isn't excactly determined by strenght (at least if you go with what shulgin said). a ++++ is a possibly life changing spiritual experience. you cannot really force having one. so thinking about a "+++++" doesn't make sense, either it's a +++ (fullon effects) or a ++++.
    Just trying to make sense of this...logically it seems like you could always go a little deeper, just like you can always add 1 to a number. Yes I agree a ++++ is a profound spiritual awakening...but it could still be even more profound right? The only way I could see ++++ being the max is if in this state your synapses are maxed out or something like that that would be hardwired into the brain…A brain firewall or something. I guess I need to research the Shulgin scale more.
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    Senior Moderator
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    Just trying to make sense of this...logically it seems like you could always go a little deeper, just like you can always add 1 to a number.
    Can you add one to infinity? Can you count high enough to get there?
    (Now, if we extend this metaphor too far, it undermines itself, by way of the distinction between countably and uncountably infinite sets.)

    The point is that ++++ experiences are QUALITATIVELY different from other experiences, where the other 4 values of the scale are mostly quantitative (yet also exhibiting qualitative aspects that make them identifiable).


    ebola

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    a +++++ experience is coma or death i guess

    I reached ++++ experiences only few times, and in most cases they were really scary trips, like the one with psilohuasca, 10 hours of pure terror, worst trip of my life.
    Another time with 60mg of mxe orally, also that one was scaring me in certain parts.
    The only 'good' one was with 33mg of 4-Ho-Dipt, i thought i had taken only that but my gf told me some days ago that i ate also some MXE that night, little before the tryptamine, i didn't even remember doing that
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    I've hit ++++ only once, and only on mushrooms. I have tried very hard for years to duplicate the experience using mushrooms, and I've never been able to.

    It was my very first psychedelic experience too... what an introduction!
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    My own view is that phenethylamines are unable to produce that ++++ experience. DMT, LSD and mushrooms are the only ones that took me there, and in each case the ++++ experience occurred because of novelty and/or the "shock" to the system. For example, I did 1.5 grams of mushrooms my first time, which was fine, then the following time I did 3, which took me to ++++. Other mushrooms trips haven't taken me there. Similarly for LSD; first time was mild, then I had a much stronger dose and went to ++++. Other, even stronger doses haven't taken me there.
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    ^ but wouldn't a MDMA experience which changed the life of the user (eg overcoming of anxiety, resolving traumatic experiences) also be classified as a ++++? i think many people confuse ++++ with an extraordinarily strong trip, but i think you can have a life changing experience without ego death and stuff like that.
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    it's all a circle, after ++++ you go into a negative ---- before starting at +1 to the power of 5, lol, hard to explain.
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    What makes a ++++ experience? 
    Bluelighter RobotRipping's Avatar
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    i've heard allyescaline isn't great but methylallyescaline is good, gonna have to try them all now i guess. 50mg gives a full experience IMO, 75mg for intense trips and 100mg for ++++ that's with oral dosing at least, i'll try plugging tomorrow and i bet that it's 3x more potent but shorter lasting. Will vape some tonight as well, as others have vaped 3c-e with success. Shit i'd IV this if i had any idea on IV technique lol ill leave that to someone else. In any case, my report is in the trip reports section in case anyone is curious, it's brief though.
    Last edited by RobotRipping; 05-01-2013 at 06:30.
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    Bluelighter 2002Tii's Avatar
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    Just want to remind everyone that a ++++ isn't dose dependent and is not something that is reached often. Just felt the need to point that out so people don't go end up taking 100mg expecting a ++++ and end up boning themselves, always remember to start low and work your way up.
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    Bluelighter RobotRipping's Avatar
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    well i seriously doubt you will not get a ++++ experience from 100mg of escaline. It's like saying 100mg of DMT smoked properly will not give you a ++++, it most certainly will. I agree it's not dose dependent and not to shoot for a 100mg dose. ++++ are usually too intense anyway, a strong +++ is what you should aim for. If it happens to end up being more then that's great.
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    Bluelighter specialspack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobotRipping View Post
    well i seriously doubt you will not get a ++++ experience from 100mg of escaline. It's like saying 100mg of DMT smoked properly will not give you a ++++, it most certainly will. I agree it's not dose dependent and not to shoot for a 100mg dose. ++++ are usually too intense anyway, a strong +++ is what you should aim for. If it happens to end up being more then that's great.
    You don't understand the concept of a ++++ experience....
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    Bluelighter RobotRipping's Avatar
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    Yeah I do I'm talking bordering on mystical experience ego dissolving and losing touch with reality
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    Bluelighter specialspack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobotRipping View Post
    Yeah I do I'm talking bordering on mystical experience ego dissolving and losing touch with reality
    That's not what a ++++ experience is. That's a strong +++. The idea that any drug can produce a repeatable ++++, i.e. your earlier comment about DMT guaranteeing a ++++ everytime you take it, is contrary to Shulgin's stated definition (my emphasis):

    PLUS FOUR (++++) A rare and precious transcendental state, which has been called a 'peak experience', a 'religious experience,' 'divine transformation,' a 'state of Samādhi' and many other names in other cultures. It is not connected to the +1, +2, and +3 of the measuring of a drug's intensity. It is a state of bliss, a participation mystique, a connectedness with both the interior and exterior universes, which has come about after the ingestion of a psychedelic drug, but which is not necessarily repeatable with a subsequent ingestion of that same drug. If a drug (or technique or process) were ever to be discovered which would consistently produce a plus four experience in all human beings, it is conceivable that it would signal the ultimate evolution, and perhaps the end, of the human experiment.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shulgin_Rating_Scale
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    Bluelighter RobotRipping's Avatar
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    what do you think mystical experience refers to? when i say +++ bordering ++++ i mean i hit waves where it hits mystical, transcendent and including divine awareness and singularity and then goes back down to +++. DMT gives me a ++++ every time that is my experience, but i only do high doses and in the right set setting, a low dose could be a +++ for sure but i havent experimented with DMT like that.

    I don't think old shulgin is a god of psychedelics and will not take his word (see fallacy: appeal to authority) as anything other than one man's word on some topic. I also doubt he's smoked DMT more than many people on bluelight have.

    i also don't see how DMT in a high dose could not be considered transcendent (unless you have tolerance to it of course)? if you are in hyper space you have transcended this reality and it is in my opinion the epitome of mystical. It is ineffable, seemingly impossible experience than cannot be put into words (even transcendent to language). Thanks for making this its own thread, weird to see i made a thread that i didn't think i did, brought me back to my phenaz black out days.
    Last edited by RobotRipping; 21-01-2013 at 22:32.
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    Moderator
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    I've moved this into its own thread because it was getting very off topic in the other thread and I think it's make a good discussion. Carry on

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