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The Big & Dandy ++++ Thread

i find the grand philosophical volumes like Levinas' Totatility and Infinity or Heideggers Being and Time to be 'useful' in some way. They never attempt to 'capture' the experience itself though. its more of a 'pointing towards'. through making the highest possible abstractions of it, the language becomes instrumentalized, no longer descriptive, but mechanisms, metaprogramming, a tool carving out paths through the jungle to bring curious explorers to the very edge of the Abyss. the experience itself however just cannot be captured. words themselves are the lines, delineations, de-finings that aren't really there. as Heidegger says; "[in language] dasein walks the boundaries of the infinite". the philosophers try to overcome the limits of language through a technical vocabulary which speaks in the most unfathomable paradoxes and abstractions, in an attempt to transcend language through itself.

I generally found Heidegger's text utterly impenetrable -- likewise for most other German translations of, oh, pretty much everything (except Berkeley...)

[verbs at the end of sentences! whyyyyyy? (oh right, German.)]

I vaguely recall reading Levinas, but it's been years.

I generally had a very difficult time with most postmodern and contemporary philosophy, to be honest. Maybe I'll give 'em another shot......
 
My +4 (calling it by that name makes it seem so cheap!) experience is... indescribably significant in my life. My tripping buddy shared essentially the same trip with me, and he shares all of my feelings on it. Integrating it is not easy, but it feels like noble work :).

The integration isn't just acting on my new found values, although that is a large part of it. It's also difficult to decide who to tell about it and who NOT to tell about it. Some people are fascinated by it, and seem to be uplifted simply upon hearing about it (my mother believe it or not!). But others stereotype you as a goalless hippie with no grasp on the "real world" they think they know so well.

I think that these "plus four" experiences don't differ much from traditional "good trips" in what they teach and how they effect the tripper, other than some undefinable realness to it. Something natural, something fundamental. I very much recall feeling like I was "coming home" to my "roots".
 
the bible was written by humans... :|

and it's a failure. Look at how much bible is misunderstood.
Human is not mature enough, but time will come.

I think shulgin works serves more this conscience that the bible did.
 
the bible was written by humans... :|

i don't think he's referring to the bible; in fact, i don't think he's referring to actual words at all. the words as we know them would be the flawed transcription.

i don't see why A Word (as we know it) of God is automatically flawed or not divine because it is written by man. Much as an artist can extort (lol) a divine performance, a divine text can be written. The interpreter however, might perform much less divine at times.
And though i consider the bible incredibly archaic; the general sense of the stories express something of an eternal nature, which i cannot see becoming obsolete. One can easily do away with all the endless enumerations and ritualistic prescriptions though (imo).
I find the non-canonical christian gnostic texts (nag hammadi library, DSS) to be a *very* welcome addition when scavenging the Christian spirit for understanding. They can place the biblical texts in a much broader light. (mysticism? blasphemy!)
 
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It's a blessing to be there. Only a handful of times, once while peaking on 500ug of lsd, but only after I smoked synthetic nn-dmt. Not even going to try and explain the visions and auditory hallucinations I've experienced with that encounter.
Beautiful!


the best decption i've come across as to how does it feel is chyna cats third and fourth post. Words cant touch upon it, but this is the best attempt.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=37&Number=1427364&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=



The bible WAS written by humans & mostly edited as well by kings who won the wars to fit there likings/agendas. No surprise there really.
 
I've had one real ++++ and that was definitely my spiritual awakening. Second time tripping ever, on an underestimated dose of fresh mushrooms...
It was absolutely beyond tripping, timeless, ultimately reality unvealing. I'd never thought something like that could be and I didn't really get there ever again. It also changed my life forever and it will be a personal source to philophize about and ponder illumination and ultimate meaning for the rest of my life!

Furthermore I've had other experiences that were certainly more than +++ but they weren't a perfect ++++ like the one above:
- One time on acid the most glorious song ever triggered a rebirth OBE experience for me where I faced final judgment, died and was born again. It was one of the most special things but it didn't turn my life totally upside down, though my ego was away for a timeless instant.
- Recently I had a sober ++++ like experience where the philosophy I intellectually believe in finally came alive, it was a realization that brought me a massive amount of peace and energy, and it has helped me turn my life around. As such it was a life-changing experience and in a way a ++++ but my ego was not 100% gone.

So I think it's hard to say when it is or isn't a ++++ and it depends on what you call it. If you ask me complete ego destruction is such a thing and life-changing events too, but a real ++++ should not contain purely one of those, always one of those including a little bit of the other. It has to be, since they are so intricately interwoven.

Sometimes people think they have a ++++ but in the light of other things it can turn out to be only a strong +++.
That is because a ++++ is a function of fundamental meaning or far-reaching implication and not simply momentary intensity. If you lose a frame of reference or have a narrow one to begin with it can be that you overreact. Still, it will always be sheer subjective relativity so without strong reasons who can be the judge?
 
These are the threads I joined BL for. If we could only, truly, put down what happened through words.
Everyone is 'chosen' in their own way. I thought for the longest time I was the only one who could see what I see/saw/felt...turns out a lot of us have had these epiphanies
Ever consider this beautiful place as the loss of religion? Wait, that would be running with your own interpretation of the situation ....
 
I respectfully disagree besides the subjectivity thing. It's not that worthless on the other hand, a ++++ is meant to be an experience removing you so far from normal life into the cosmic picture that there is a certain breakdown of the most fundamental structures of concepts and ideas that compells you to reintegrate everything entirely anew again upon re-entrance thus repositioning you in life.
A schizophrenic may see the heavens opening up and experiencing things beyond our wildest dreams and in a trip the same may happen, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it will be such a wipe-and-load phenomenon that persistent after effects are noted.

That is why the only two real accounts I consider to be ++++ of my own are when the main thing was a breakthrough in my perspective on life and not only something that makes you go WOW very hard.
Though what I would call like a +++ and a half is a trancendental experience that doesn't necessarily have a lasting impact, but it is something mystical often described in the fundaments of religion (but today all too often neglected)
 
Had anyone else had this type of experience on a low dose? It was only two hits of some seriously clean LSD, which I doubt I'll be able to get again.

So I was quite grounded in this world, and while peaking my visuals were few and far between. I could communicate and walk/run/cartwheel around just fine. But I was in the motherfucking garden of Eden, I was at home.
 
^ "Memory is energy! It doesn't disappear - it's still in there. There's a physiological pathway to our earlier consciousnesses. There has to be; and I'm telling you it's in the goddamned limbic system." - Professor Eddie Jessup
 
^ "Memory is energy! It doesn't disappear - it's still in there. There's a physiological pathway to our earlier consciousnesses. There has to be; and I'm telling you it's in the goddamned limbic system." - Professor Eddie Jessup

Damn good quote there.
 
Had anyone else had this type of experience on a low dose? It was only two hits of some seriously clean LSD, which I doubt I'll be able to get again.

So I was quite grounded in this world, and while peaking my visuals were few and far between. I could communicate and walk/run/cartwheel around just fine. But I was in the motherfucking garden of Eden, I was at home.


Yes, and in fact that experiences that I hear about that most resemble the +4 experience tend to occur at fairly low doses -- the drug seems to act as a catalyst.

Most of the high dose trips I read about that are categorized as +4 trips sound more like very strong +3's. But with subjective experience being what it is, who the hell knows.

Mine involved about 2 grams of mushrooms and less than half a joint of mediocre weed.
 
That is why the only two real accounts I consider to be ++++ of my own are when the main thing was a breakthrough in my perspective on life and not only something that makes you go WOW very hard.
Though what I would call like a +++ and a half is a trancendental experience that doesn't necessarily have a lasting impact, but it is something mystical often described in the fundaments of religion (but today all too often neglected)

This sounds like a damn fine classification system. I've had VERY strong +++'s that were transcendental and ecstatic in which I felt like I was completely at one with the universe, union with God, etc... But my +4 absolutely CHANGED me, permanently, in a way that I still feel, years later.. Every. Single. Day.

Those strong +++'s were really more like +3.5's. Beautiful, delicate, rare... just not *quite* that same place. Pretty damn close, though. Then again, you can't step into the same river twice. Again: who the hell knows?
 
I am being 100% honest when I say:

Given the option to repeat the experience, or at least enter that state again temporarily, I would decline. I actually find it depressingly beautiful at times. The experience itself is in no way depressing, but the contrast of our reality and that reality is. I feel like I never really came down, I'm not at all tripping and I don't have HPPD, but I'm living in a very blurry version of that head space to this day.

I pretty much live my life everyday, making small and large actions to help bring our world to that state. Obviously, I can never do this on my own, but hopefully there's enough of us out there to make it happen.

I have two friends that are possibly going to be evicted, I'm starting a bake sale with a few churches to stop that. Not a huge interruption in my life, but just knowing how it might make them feel is beautiful.

The look in someones eye when you just drop everything important to you to help them out is fucking priceless. Over time you see your friend circle start to brighten up, the love is contagious man <3 :)
 
Yes, and in fact that experiences that I hear about that most resemble the +4 experience tend to occur at fairly low doses -- the drug seems to act as a catalyst.

That's my case on my side. 10 mg 4-ho-met and 50 mg modafinil the morning is very low dose. It was less visual than previous 10mg 4-ho-met alone.
One day i will retry this combo.

It's not so easy to integrate the revelations for this state on everyday basis.
 
of course, its amazing, but utterly worthless if you dont take anything home from it. i very distinctly remember the single ++++ i've had (4acomipt), but even after all the wisdom i recieved, i failed to properly use it, making it utterly worthless. except of course, for the experience itself, which is why anybody takes psychedelics in the first place.

Remember: Nothing lasts.. but nothing is lost! :)
 
^From my rusty AP Latin, that would direct translate to "all changes, nothing is lost". Same idea :)
 
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