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Dissociatives [Ketamine Subthread] Isomers: R and S Ketamine

Shambles said:
Any more details on the effects and how they differ from s-ket and standard racemic?
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The S(+) isomer is more potent(which is often the case with amines), and is the isomer most responsible for the psychedelic effects, while the R(-) isomer is most responsible for the anesthetic effects.
When I say I saw it for sale I mean just that, I saw it only, I never bought it because I don't have much interest in it. Racemic ketamine is just fine and S(+)ketamine is a nice luxury but R(-)ketamine seems pretty lame...to me anyway :\ YMMV
 
Suppose it would be really. Sounds like the kinda thing I'd want to try and add to my stash box purely for rarity value really. I'm a bit of a ketamine fiend sometimes but have never heard of r-ket being available around here. It's now on my To Acquire list :D

I really don't know about these things, but is s-ket made specifically or would it be seperated from racemic? S-ket is uncommon here but does show up occasionally and in my uneducated mind I was thinking if it's been split from racemic then r-ket should be around more than it is. But I'm sure it just doesn't work like that - chemistry is not my thing - so feel free to point and laugh at my ponderings :D
 
To make S(+)ketamine specifically, one would need to start the synthesis with all enantiopure S(+) compounds to get an enantiopure S(+) product. This is probably pretty diffcult. I dont know the specifics of a ketamine synthesis(I'm not permitted to post them anyway ;)), but I suspect ketamine is mostly racemic for a reason.
Seperation is probably more common. Although obviously if you seperate a gram of racemic ketamine for example you have 500mg R and 500mg S, so why there is apparently more S than R is strange I suppose.
 
Glad to know my ponderings aren't entirely based in fantasyland, D9 :D

I'd imagine that leftover r-ket must be used for something and it doesn't seem to be sold very often. Perhaps used as an extra cut in racemic ket? But if it's a hard process to do I'd think it would be too expensive to muck about with it like that. Maybe it's all a big con and r-ket is actually amazing stuff and the s-ket producers keep it all for themselves. It's all a conspiracy I tells ya!!! 8o:D8o
 
Lol
Yeah seperation is hard and tedious and does require some serious equipment, but if one is hell bent on aquiring S(+)ket(of course I mean a well-funded pharmaceutical company, not a single person or a drug cartel ;)), in the long run it may costs less than buying bulk amounts of the ingrediants needed to make S(+)ketamine(which in all likelyhood have been seperated from a racemate themselves).
R(-)ket may indeed be the one used more often in medicine(and hence less is available on the "black market", since as I understand it, ketamine is almost exclusively taken from legitimate sources and hardly synthesized at home) since less is required to induce anesthesia.

edit - Ok time to give my paranthasis keys a break for a while ;)
 
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That would make sense actually. More sense than my conspiracy theory anyway. Possibly ;)
 
this stuff is synthesized on the black market. The guy I get it from has a real flair for chemistry. Ive come across pure diazapam as well as pure viagra from this source. I've also had the opportunity to try a THC analogue he had created.
 
Shambles - You really never know with those damn pharmaceutical companies ;)
Nex - Yes, k is made clandestinely, but it is rare. Have you actually witnessed him make it? Because I somehow doubt it is true.
 
No i did not witness him make it but i know my source very well and hes very good at what he does
 
I've had both isomers, first it was S then a while after that the R was stocked. I found the S-variety to be way more anaesthetic, mentally it's a softer experience like you increasingly forget who or where you are. Walking is often not an option, but on the body it can feel like you were hit by a freight train.
The R variety is much lighter on the body, loss of coordination certainly, but it doesn't really put you down fast at all. It leaves you more present but at the same time jumbles up all sensory information making it more disturbing - not soft and cozy at all but hard, edgy, quite manic actually.
Took me a while to get the feeling for them, what they were about but right now it's clear as day. If I take the racemic I can distinguish the parts of the effects that can be attributed to the isomers. My source was an excellent one, the purity of both was also the best I ever saw.

Merging into the K isomer subthread. :)

Also, if you disagree that S-(+)-ketamine is more anaesthetic and gentle take a look at the complete first page of this thread. TheTripDoctor comes to the same conclusions as I did...
I find the question which isomer is more psychedelic a really hard one and I could understand people answering for either one. To me the R-(-) is more delusionally and fucked up psychedelic while the S-(+) has more of a wholly rounded emergent state coming from it.

The racemic is still a great mix so anyone who doesn't have the isomers available: you're not missing that much apart from a satisfied curiosity. Though I may change my preference from racemic to S-ket. Ahhh the good old days.
 
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Separating optical isomers with tartaric acid

*snip

This should be a simple process for anyone as it involves elementary understanding of chemistry to reproduce for any racemic mixture.

It would be interesting to see the levels of R and S ketamine in street K, and I am almost positive would account for the sometimes varying effects in potency/quality (outside of obvious cuts) of street ketamine.

On a personal note:
R-ketamine has to be my favorite. It is much more obviously visual than the racemate or S-isomer alone. The visual distortions strongly remind me of those induced by DMT, indicating a higher Sigma-1 affinity. Two downsides are high dose and freedom of movement.

First off a little personal information-
weight : 150lb
dose required for K hole:
(R)-Ketamine : 150-300mg
(S)-Ketamine : 75-100
Racemic : 125-150mg

The dose of R-ket necessitated a much higher amount to achieve a desired sedation (which, in my opinion, sets the stage for the near death experience). Even on higher doses, I was still able to move around quite easily. I found that unlike the S isomer or racemic, the effects seemed to stack. By the end of the night (after numerous injections) I was encountering full visual distortions obscuring normal visual processing. Many lights and tree figures, at one point I was afraid my vision would not return to normal.

My most intense experience came from a 300mg I.M. shot which induced a state of temporary anesthesia. When I became aware, unlike the slow and progressive reintegration with my ego/proprioception that is common on racemic/S-isomer, I was suddenly just aware of everything. This was the most intense induced NDE I've yet to experience, I was afraid I had actually died (although the logical side reassured me that I had not). Aside from the utter shock of it all, I felt truly loved by the universe and that all was right.
 
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NexusRex said:
this stuff is synthesized on the black market. The guy I get it from has a real flair for chemistry. Ive come across pure diazapam as well as pure viagra from this source. I've also had the opportunity to try a THC analogue he had created.
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you really dont need to know a chemist to have access to pure diazepam, pure viagra or cialis, synthetic cannabinoids or ketamine.

You can aquire any one of those from a chemical company.

i think your buddy is pulling your leg.

Just out of curiosity what is this THC analogue he invented called?
 
Recently I asked my friend what the deal was with these isomers. It appears there's a company doing a lot of business in pseudo-ephedrine (oh what could that be for?) and also both ketamine isomers. The ephedrine is the main thing. They go by the bulk and apparently there is almost no market for R-ketamine as it isn't sedating or better yet: anaesthetic. There is very little, if any, medical purpose. As such they relatively have only little business with it to get rid of the product but those that want it they sell to gladly. I also heard some distributor received that ephedrine instead of a K isomer and after preparing a (test) line the reactions were obviously quite negative. It was all straightened out eventually.

Due to the lack of application the R-isomer seems to be relatively rare. Purity of this product fluctuates between 80-85% by the way.
I honestly wished I knew someone for some quality racemate but I can only get impure racemate. The R is schizo as dog shit.
Could be I know a guy for vials - then I'M golden :p
 
Tried S ketamine last night via the nose.
It was great, I will do it again.

My previous experience with Ketamine was only with the racemic..

To me, the S ketamine felt less detaching in a way actually.. it quite difficult to describe... a ketamine that wasn't as detaching.. sounds weird.
However, I should note that I haven't had ketamine in about 7-8 years (I had the racemic many many years ago, on more than one occasion).. so I feel like my basis for comparing the two might be a bit dated if not only because of my memory but also for the fact that I was an adolescent when I was experimenting with it at that point. I didn't really care for Ketamine (racemic) when I was younger.. felt too much like my head was a ballon and slowly ascending into the sky in a really detatched and weird way.

This time with the S, I was definitely able to use much less powder.. and there was a certain euphoria to the whole experience.. I literally had a sensation of being lifted up out of my body and waves moving across me... pulsating and going in different directions for different amounts of time.. all while having a great mental trip.

Definitely going to experiment further, at a higher dose, prolly with IM after I get a syringe filter.
 
I never had any confirmation as to what isomer what stash was in my ketamine-using days, aside from a lot of dealer hearsay. But I came to learn that in that time and place, the stuff was being channeled from crooked chemical supply houses overseas, and was very, very pure. It definitely wasn't evaporated k, and it's appearance was very uniform.

There were two distinct types of crystal shapes that were certainly both ketamine, but one was very granular and one was more needle shaped. They both had different effects, one being more trippy and sedating and one being more stimulating and... I lack a word to describe it. But everyone assumed each stash had more of one isomer and vice versa.

What I'm wondering is this: can the chirality of a molecule affect crystal shape that dramatically? I mean, if the two are just mirror images of eachother, shouldn't they ultimately crystallize in the same way, whether or not they are right or left-handed? Could the difference in crystals between the two types be more related to the method of crystalization or something in the lab, or is the chirality of ketamine enough to influence the shapes of the crystals to that extent?
 
I have no knowledge on whether the shape of the crystal is any indication of its isomer but I don't see why it would really... Then again, all the s-ket I've had has been the needle-shaped crystal whereas racemic has always been sugar/salt type crystal. Both from sources that can be trusted as being totally legit - pharm grade crystal before it's been made up into vials.
 
I believe that the type of salt can also affect the shape/coloration of the ketamine. If the isomers were separated using tartaric acid, I would certainly imagine a difference in appearance of the crystal structure.

The S-ket I've had always was powdered finely (meant to be reconstituted) so I never noticed what it would look like otherwise. It was from a reputable, trusted source long ago and so the quality was guaranteed.

I must admit, my own first adventure with S-ket was a bit foolish. I underestimated the potency difference so my first attempt was at a whopping 300mg I.M. dose. This led me to have a period where I got out of my chair and walked a good ways to my bedroom and laid down (which I don't remember). I must have been anesthetized for at least 30-45 minutes before I regained (a highly intoxicated) stat of consciousness.

It was an awesome experience once I started to regain consciousness, experiencing emergence phenomena was interesting to say the least. The effects lingered quite long and after 2 hours I decided to go shopping and felt great, like I was on ecstasy without any of the stimulation.

I tried S-ket a few times after that but IMO it just didn't compare to the racemate. Then years later, I fell in love with the R-isomer.

Personally, I strongly believe individual brain anatomy has much to do with the effects the various isomers have. Ketamine (and most abusable NMDA antagonists) have complex pharmacodynamics.

figure2.gif

I know this is for DXM, but consider that ketamine works in a similar fashion of dose/receptor affinity response.
 
How is it possible that one can seperate enantiomers with tartaric acid(ie a chemical reaction) when enantiomers are chemically identicle?
 
Here you can see the difference between the two isomers in crystal form:

Link

As you can see it is the S on top and R on the bottom. They taste a little different, look a
little different and act a little different. It's almost as if they were a little different you might say.
 
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