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Kratom Withdrawal

Heya people, long time since I've been here ;).

I'm a little concerned about my kratom usage the last couple of months. I don't use big amounts or dose all day but still I am kinda worried because I really want to avoid a heavy addiction on kratom. For the last months I have been taking kratom 4-5 days a week. Usual dosage is 7.5 grams, and then after an hour or so one small redosing of 2-3 grams. I don't increase these dosages and I still get good effects from them every time. I change strange a lot tho and ofcourse the feeling I get from it is a little less than before I started forming this habbit. In weekend I usually don't take kratom but I am out drinking and smoking pot then.
Till now the use of kratom has been very benificial for me. I started two new hobbies, found a new (legal lol) way to make money with my hobby. I'm more motivated than ever, and I feel great. And I can thank that all to kratom because it gives me the boost I need in life. I never use during the day, but I dose in the evening after work. Then it will motivate me to take care of my hobby. Also I havn't had a cold since I started taking it this much. I don't even get sick anymore. My usage of alcohol and pot is at the lowest level in years.
Overall , my usage of this herb has been very very benificial for me, my wellbeing, my finances, well everything. Nonetheless, I am afraid I am on the road to addiction to this stuff. Whenever I almost run out of kratom I get panicy. But I have this with pot too. I think it's just the sober evenings that scare me since I am so used to being high at night(first pot, now it's kratom).
I do notice that when I'm on vacation for a couple of days I get angry quicker and am kinda restless, more irritated etc. .I tend to compensate that with drinking, but it only works a little. I'm so used to getting to sleep while on kratom that whenever I don't use it and don't smoke pot or drink a lot, I can't sleep. I'm an insomniac anyways but that's just my biorithm and lifestyle:p.
Another thing is that no one really knows I'm taking it except one of my friends. I never use it when I go out, am at work or anything, only when I'm at home, alone or with my girlfriend, but she does not know I take it this regularly. She's from Thailand and is not that positive about kratom.

I do not increase my dosage or anything. I don't think it's really necessairy because I do it max 5 times a week and change strains a lot.

So my question to you guys. When you read all this, do you think I'm on a slow road to trouble and heavy addiction, or is this herb just enhancing my life in a good way? I'm just afraid that when I need to stop taking the stuff(on vacation, or later in life), that I will get very bad withdrawal. Or will it all be ok when staying at this dosage level? I'm not worried about the money since I pay less than 200 per kilo for very good quality.

(Received a new package today and I'm currently on some very good red Borneo, it's been a while since I had that one)

Thank you for reading and helping in advance!
 
I don't mean to hijack this thread, so I'll try to be brief.

The more I read, the less I understand. I know I'm greener than a goard. I know that I irritate folks...just ask my husband. :\

I truly need pain relief and mood lifting properties that I've read Kratom offers. Opiate trials through legit PM have failed me thus far. I fear addiction. I fear "needing" a substance to sustain some degree of normalcy.

TRUTH is that I WANT and I NEED pain relief after resisting big gun pain meds for decades. All that abstinence has gotten me @ 54 is a lifetime of physical pain and mental anguish, with little "life" left in me.

The bazillion dollar question: Opiates prescribed or Kratom? Is there a lesser of 2 evils or are they the same devil, but wearing a different dress? I've only taken the capsule form Kratom for the past week, and not daily then. It's Meang Da (sic) because I don't want the sedating effect. My maximum intake has only been 4.8 grams with no noticeable results.

I DO think there is potential for mood-lifting properties, but so is Oxycodone for which I am prescribed.

I'm not looking for a high. I'm not looking for perfect, just possible. Please be kind with your comments, as I have enough judgement in my life.


Thx.
 
Kratom is such a strange compound. Despite thousands of years of use, there are few studies on the alkaloids or the different species of the plant itself. All are stimulating at low doses and can have a surprisingly strong opiate feeling at higher doses. White kratom tends to be more stimulating, the red Thai variety tends to have more of an opiate feeling, and Green Malay is odd, I haven't quite figured it out. It's more relaxing and has little stimulation.

The saving grace to kratom is that it is less of a risk than opiates or opioid because it will not depress your respiratory system. I know of no reports of kratom contributing to anyone's death (please someone correct me if I'm mistaken). In this sense it is the lesser of the evils.

Kratom can certainly be addicting, but for most people it takes many weeks of daily use before they notice significant withdrawal symptoms. And when addiction does occur it can be hard, but withdrawal is relatively short lasting and not nearly as intense as something like morphine or oxycodone.

Some people have found kratom as a useful aid to help withdraw from other opiates. It usually stops withdrawal symptoms very effectively, and since it is legal and relatively available in most countries it is less of a risk and easier to manage.

I have used kratom in the past to deal with residual anxiety while adjusting my prescribed medication. It has worked for me with no major consequences, but everyone is different and this is not an endorsement. As you can see, many people who dive in too deeply are in a bad place right now. Tread carefully and look after yourself.
 
Hi Lucid. I used Kratom for 3 years. I have an interesting history with it, and of course no one can answer this question for YOU, but we can tell you how it affected us and you are welcome to interpolate. I started using very low doses, like yourself, 3-4 times a week. On those days I felt "normal" as so many people say, in the sense that I thought that was how I was supposed to feel all the time. I had motivation, more energy, I was doing better at work, social situations were improving, etc. I used about 5 grams on these days, and this kept up for months. On the days I used, I did not use any other substances, so like you my intake of alcohol, pot, etc was at its lowest at that point.

But, its an opioid. Opioids have tolerance and reduced affects. They have psychological addiction. Slowly, but surely, my usage started increasing. It continued increasing over three years, which is a significant amount of time. At the end, I was taking 24 grams x2 a day, every day. I only felt "normal" for about 1.5 hours after dosing and then felt like crap the rest of the day. If I dosed any more than this, I got dizziness, nausea, irritable; basically the AEs overpowered the therapeutic effects. So I stopped. Went through about 5 days of acute withdrawal (no, not as bad as opiates, but not fun), and then PAWS which I fight with wellbutrin quite effectively. The overwhelming sense of dread and depression, constant crying, no energy to so much as get up to go to the bathroom. Real hard.

Point? For me, while everything you said was true at the beginning, it simply did not last, and yes, it lead to a bad addiction and bad withdrawal. Travelling became extremely problematic because I had to plan out my doses, pack capsules, get through airport security with the stuff (I travel a lot for work), etc. Will this happen to you? I can't say, but what I can say is watch your doses. Keep a log. Use Excel and track it, or on a pad of paper, doesn't matter. If the frequency or amount increase, take a break for a couple of weeks. If you find that you can't take a break for more than a few days, or not at all, you already have a problem, and you need to give it up. With addiction, we ALWAYS make excuses to use. "I have a stressful social event coming up, I need to dose." "I have a lot of work to do, I need to dose". The fact is before addiction, you never needed anything to do any of these things. I don't mean to rant but I want to directly answer your question about heavy addiction, and the warning signs. It doesn't look like addiction from the perspective of the user, it just looks like your day to day. Good luck and hopefully you will have no problem using responsibly.
 
Thank you very much for your opinion and information on the matter, flyingpertyhigh. I really don't want to go through the same situation you went through. I already have some basic rules for using kratom( or alcohol,pot). I never use if I still have to go to work that day. I just like to use after a day of working to relax. I do not use more than the 7,5gram+ a max redose of 3g per day. Because I don't use it in the weekends, I think I can stay at this dose without loosing all the effects. And reading your story will probably help me realize that when I start to increase the dose, I have a problem.
Till now, I don't really feel like I "need" it. It's just that when work is done and I come home, I take a dose and just chill,watch some television, read some on the internet,... Before I used kratom I used pot daily. And since it's longer lasting, I used it multiple times per evening. You could say i'm addicted to having a buzz at night. Whenever I ran out of pot, I just used some other herb or rc, just to "feel something". I can be completely sober all day and don't mind it, but when the day ends I just like to feel a buzz. I prefer kratom right now because it's pretty long lasting and because of the euphoria. If I would drink some hashmilk or smoke pot all night, I'm pretty sure I would not crave for kratom. I also don't use to feel "normal",but to feel different than "normal during the day". It's like a reward.
I think it's very important that I do not start to use kratom daily, or stay home for it. That would be a big sign of getting addicted. Usage should be at max 5 times a week,preferably 4. I think I should be safe for addiction then. Mentally and hopefully physical too. Do you think that as long as I don't break my own rules, there's little chance to addiction?

Did you have any negative impact on your body during those three years because of the kratom? and what does "AE" mean? Do you think that with my current dosage and frequency I would already have withdrawal symptoms? During the weekend when I don't use it does not seem like I have any. And i'm only using pot and alcohol at night, so during the day I'm sober withouth wd's.

Thanks for replying. Other opinion's or advice are still appreciated:).
 
Lucid420 said:
Thank you very much for your opinion and information on the matter, flyingpertyhigh. I really don't want to go through the same situation you went through. I already have some basic rules for using kratom( or alcohol,pot). I never use if I still have to go to work that day. I just like to use after a day of working to relax. I do not use more than the 7,5gram+ a max redose of 3g per day. Because I don't use it in the weekends, I think I can stay at this dose without loosing all the effects. And reading your story will probably help me realize that when I start to increase the dose, I have a problem.
Till now, I don't really feel like I "need" it. It's just that when work is done and I come home, I take a dose and just chill,watch some television, read some on the internet,... Before I used kratom I used pot daily. And since it's longer lasting, I used it multiple times per evening. You could say i'm addicted to having a buzz at night. Whenever I ran out of pot, I just used some other herb or rc, just to "feel something". I can be completely sober all day and don't mind it, but when the day ends I just like to feel a buzz. I prefer kratom right now because it's pretty long lasting and because of the euphoria. If I would drink some hashmilk or smoke pot all night, I'm pretty sure I would not crave for kratom. I also don't use to feel "normal",but to feel different than "normal during the day". It's like a reward.
I think it's very important that I do not start to use kratom daily, or stay home for it. That would be a big sign of getting addicted. Usage should be at max 5 times a week,preferably 4. I think I should be safe for addiction then. Mentally and hopefully physical too. Do you think that as long as I don't break my own rules, there's little chance to addiction?

Did you have any negative impact on your body during those three years because of the kratom? and what does "AE" mean? Do you think that with my current dosage and frequency I would already have withdrawal symptoms? During the weekend when I don't use it does not seem like I have any. And i'm only using pot and alcohol at night, so during the day I'm sober withouth wd's.

Thanks for replying. Other opinion's or advice are still appreciated:).
Click to expand...

Hey lucid. You're kind of asking the same question over again, and really the response is the same. No one knows the answer to the question unfortunately. Dependence and addiction affects everyone differently. Using it 5 times a week is basically daily, so you will at the least have a physical dependence to it, meaning you will build a tolerance and when you stop using suddenly, you will go through a withdrawal. The severity of said WD depends on the person, the dose, and the length of time using. If you want to completely avoid both tolerance and withdrawal, once a week should be your max. If your "rules" are to use it 5 times a week, there isn't much to break really in the first place. I can't tell you what to do, but I can tell you what happened to me, and others. 5 times a week led to problems for myself and others.

Regarding your other questions: Negative impact - none that I can tell. I got liver function tests (LFT) after sobering up and everything was normal. During the end of my use, I had irritability, constipation, racing heart, nausea, vomiting, and anxiety. AE is "adverse event", basically side effects, or effects of the drug other than that which is intended. Our bodies are strange machines. Even if you use let's say Mon - Fri, every week for a couple months, and never use on Saturday and Sunday, you may find that you never go into withdrawal even through Sunday night. However, if you skip that Monday, you may suddenly find yourself in withdrawal. Half of addiction and tolerance is PSYCHOLOGICAL - your body learns when you drug and expects it at that time, so you may not experience withdrawal at the "normal" times, i.e. 24-48 hours after stopping, if its NORMAL for you to not dose anyway after 48 hours. It's crazy.

Another example constantly comes up with IV H users. They can dose the same amount in the usual places they shoot up, such as their room or at a friends or whatever. Let's say they shoot up 0.25 grams, no problems. That same person, using the same gear in the same amount, if they shoot up in a completely novel place, such as at a park or at work, can OD because psychologically, the body wasn't prepared for the dose. Right before using, the body "preps" for the drug. It uses cues around you to know when to do this, such as things in the room you're used to seeing. I'll see if I can pull up some articles on this later today - fascinating stuff.
 
flyingpertyhigh said:
Hi Lucid. I used Kratom for 3 years. I have an interesting history with it, and of course no one can answer this question for YOU, but we can tell you how it affected us and you are welcome to interpolate. I started using very low doses, like yourself, 3-4 times a week. On those days I felt "normal" as so many people say, in the sense that I thought that was how I was supposed to feel all the time. I had motivation, more energy, I was doing better at work, social situations were improving, etc. I used about 5 grams on these days, and this kept up for months. On the days I used, I did not use any other substances, so like you my intake of alcohol, pot, etc was at its lowest at that point.

But, its an opioid. Opioids have tolerance and reduced affects. They have psychological addiction. Slowly, but surely, my usage started increasing. It continued increasing over three years, which is a significant amount of time. At the end, I was taking 24 grams x2 a day, every day. I only felt "normal" for about 1.5 hours after dosing and then felt like crap the rest of the day. If I dosed any more than this, I got dizziness, nausea, irritable; basically the AEs overpowered the therapeutic effects. So I stopped. Went through about 5 days of acute withdrawal (no, not as bad as opiates, but not fun), and then PAWS which I fight with wellbutrin quite effectively. The overwhelming sense of dread and depression, constant crying, no energy to so much as get up to go to the bathroom. Real hard.

Point? For me, while everything you said was true at the beginning, it simply did not last, and yes, it lead to a bad addiction and bad withdrawal. Travelling became extremely problematic because I had to plan out my doses, pack capsules, get through airport security with the stuff (I travel a lot for work), etc. Will this happen to you? I can't say, but what I can say is watch your doses. Keep a log. Use Excel and track it, or on a pad of paper, doesn't matter. If the frequency or amount increase, take a break for a couple of weeks. If you find that you can't take a break for more than a few days, or not at all, you already have a problem, and you need to give it up. With addiction, we ALWAYS make excuses to use. "I have a stressful social event coming up, I need to dose." "I have a lot of work to do, I need to dose". The fact is before addiction, you never needed anything to do any of these things. I don't mean to rant but I want to directly answer your question about heavy addiction, and the warning signs. It doesn't look like addiction from the perspective of the user, it just looks like your day to day. Good luck and hopefully you will have no problem using responsibly.
Click to expand...

Absolutely spot on. Every single word. I've been addicted to both pain meds and Kratom. For me, Kratom withdrawals were worse but only because I abused it for a lot longer, thinking it was a safer alternative. The withdrawal symptoms lasted for about 3 weeks total. Zero motivation to do anything during that period. The scariest part was my second day of withdrawal , I actually had suicidal thoughts. Somehow, in a moment of clarity, I got up, and put my gun in the safe to make it less accessible.

Never again will I touch Kratom.
 
Get a job. I've found that work keeps me from not knowing what to do with my time...
 
Man, these stories are starting to freaking scare me. I mean, I've read about heavy withdrawals with kratom before, but only after longtime use in heavy volume...I hope that with my current dosage and length of use the withdrawal will nog be that severe yet. Guess I better temper my use now before it totally get's out of hand. It's especially the physical withdrawal I'm afraid of.. Currently I'm working 7/7 so now is not a good time to get those wd symptoms. In two weeks i'll have some holiday tho.
I don't think I will go cold turkey, that will not do it for me. I will give in when it gets rough. Maybe I should just reduce dosage every day for a couple of days and then stop using at all for at least a week. And then no more than 2 times a week. This will also suck tho because clearly kratom also has positive effects on my life. Just don't want to ruin it by getting addicted to this stuff. Loving the plant, but don't want to go through what you went through. My use of pot will rise for sure during the withdrawal. Hopefully it makes it bareable. That is if I have heavy wd. Maybe I'm lucky and it wont be that bad at all. Praying that I wont get RLS because I really really hate that.
Anyways, thanks for all the warnings that this herb is more dangerous than generally mentioned (especially by vendors).
 
I was getting bad RLS the last time I attempted to take a tolerance break, it lasted 3 days before I caved. I don't think I can handle kratom withdrawal while tapering off Lyrica. Weed and antihistamines work pretty good for sleep, weed and mirtazapine works even better.
 
I hadn't smoked weed in several years but on day 7 of withdrawals and no sleep and horrible RLS I was willing to try anything to help me sleep. It helped quite a bit.
 
Lucid420 said:
Man, these stories are starting to freaking scare me. I mean, I've read about heavy withdrawals with kratom before, but only after longtime use in heavy volume...I hope that with my current dosage and length of use the withdrawal will nog be that severe yet. Guess I better temper my use now before it totally get's out of hand. It's especially the physical withdrawal I'm afraid of.. Currently I'm working 7/7 so now is not a good time to get those wd symptoms. In two weeks i'll have some holiday tho.
I don't think I will go cold turkey, that will not do it for me. I will give in when it gets rough. Maybe I should just reduce dosage every day for a couple of days and then stop using at all for at least a week. And then no more than 2 times a week. This will also suck tho because clearly kratom also has positive effects on my life. Just don't want to ruin it by getting addicted to this stuff. Loving the plant, but don't want to go through what you went through. My use of pot will rise for sure during the withdrawal. Hopefully it makes it bareable. That is if I have heavy wd. Maybe I'm lucky and it wont be that bad at all. Praying that I wont get RLS because I really really hate that.
Anyways, thanks for all the warnings that this herb is more dangerous than generally mentioned (especially by vendors).
Click to expand...

Lucid, you're right. You get it and I'm glad to see that. Take a break now, see what happens. Give it a solid 2 weeks of abstaining for Kratom. If you are going to have withdrawals, you'll feel them anywhere from 12-36 hours after stopping. If its still early in your habit, they won't be terrible and you'll be clear in a week. Consider yourself lucky and move on from the plant. Be honest with yourself, weigh out the pros and cons. Yes, there are pros, otherwise no one would ever start using any kind of drug. But take an honest assessment of the cons, and make an informed decision.
 
I'm not really planning on stopping the use of kratom, I just want to keep it under control so I don't end up using 40 gram on a day. I've quit for 72h now and did not notice any withdrawal. I also didn't crave to kratom or 'needed' to use it. I was just out, working, having fun, doing other stuff. Barely even tought of kratom. I think that at least I'm not physically addicted. I'm just easy at habbit forming...First it was with pot, now it's with kratom because at this moment I like the feeling more. And ofcourse duration compared to pot is a plus too.
I guess it's as you guys say, depending on the person who's taking the drug. I'm not really a problematic drug user. When I used to smoke pot everday people might call me an addict or tell me I have problems with weed, but I've never let a drug interfere with my life. I NEVER use pot(or kratom) before all the work,chores, whatever I have to do are over. I never felt the need to be high during work or doing something else. I use it to relax in the evening, as a reward.
I think as long as I limit the frequency of using kratom, I will probably handle it pretty well. And also stick to my dosage and never raise it. If I stop getting effects from that dosage, it's time to quit for a while. And I will check frequently after a couple days of using kratom if there are withdrawal symptoms. This all might sound dumb to people who had heavy addictions on this stuff, but I'm me and I know myself better than anyone else. I know when I get out of line with drugs and when I'm not. Clearly, taking kratom 5 times a week is not the way to go, I totally realize that now. But I don't think that using 7-10 grams of kratom a couple of times a week (2 or 3) will get me in substantial problems...
Thank you for all the info tho, I now know that when my frequency or dosage increases, it's time to lay off.
 
Withdrawal and RLS

Snake_Eyes said:
I was getting bad RLS the last time I attempted to take a tolerance break, it lasted 3 days before I caved. I don't think I can handle kratom withdrawal while tapering off Lyrica. Weed and antihistamines work pretty good for sleep, weed and mirtazapine works even better.
Click to expand...
I have had RLS for more than 20 years. I use to be a heavy beer drinker and when I finally stopped drinking all the time a few years ago my RLS went away...for a while. I use to take tramadol for my back and that use to help with the RLS. Cyclobenzaprene also helped with RLS, but I realize now that drinking was the biggest catalyst in my RLS. Now I am getting RLS again from cessation of opiates and kratom helps. I am worried about possible liver damage from kratom. If it didn't help so much I would stop taking kratom.
 
Father Stack said:
Hey Everyone, have decided to finally just do it and quit the Kratom, I'v quit it a few times before with bad withdrawals but was easy enough to do. This time it feels alot harder. For the last week I'm on the leaf so I'm hoping that helps. I have a supply of xanax and loperamide, does anyone know if that combo could help me, my habit is near a year now. Im doing a big walk across France and Spain with my girlfriend so I have to be off it by the time we go. She hates me on it and gives me serious shit about it and I reckon she would finish with me if she knew I was still on it.
I have never really been on anything else other than kratom and alcohol but found kratom to be a source of serious pleasure that snuck up on me and is now affecting my life way more than I like. While it may be mild in comparison to opiates I guess you have to pay the piper sometime in someway.
I'd be happy for any advice or ideas from anyone, I'm glad I can bitch about this here, have felt alone with this for ages, even went to doctors and councellors with no help, I would of got more help if I was addicted to poppy pod tea.
Click to expand...

That's always been my cocktail to get me past my kratom withdrawals!! (benzo/loperamide) and works like a charm. Good luck to you!
 
Blunderbox said:
I have had RLS for more than 20 years. I use to be a heavy beer drinker and when I finally stopped drinking all the time a few years ago my RLS went away...for a while. I use to take tramadol for my back and that use to help with the RLS. Cyclobenzaprene also helped with RLS, but I realize now that drinking was the biggest catalyst in my RLS. Now I am getting RLS again from cessation of opiates and kratom helps. I am worried about possible liver damage from kratom. If it didn't help so much I would stop taking kratom.
Click to expand...

I'm 10 days into being off kratom c/t and this time the RLS wasn't as bad. I wonder if the first time had more do with the lyrica. Anyone know if kratom is like other opiates where each w/d gets harder and once you are clean is it easier to pick up a habit again?
 
Snake_Eyes said:
I'm 10 days into being off kratom c/t and this time the RLS wasn't as bad. I wonder if the first time had more do with the lyrica. Anyone know if kratom is like other opiates where each w/d gets harder and once you are clean is it easier to pick up a habit again?
Click to expand...

I also did not get RLS when I stopped a 3 year kratom habit. After being stopped for 1.5 months, I used it again and my tolerance hadn't changed in the slightest. Stopping after that slip I had a minor withdrawal, after only a couple days of use.
 
Blunderbox said:
I have had RLS for more than 20 years. I use to be a heavy beer drinker and when I finally stopped drinking all the time a few years ago my RLS went away...for a while. I use to take tramadol for my back and that use to help with the RLS. Cyclobenzaprene also helped with RLS, but I realize now that drinking was the biggest catalyst in my RLS. Now I am getting RLS again from cessation of opiates and kratom helps. I am worried about possible liver damage from kratom. If it didn't help so much I would stop taking kratom.
Click to expand...

I can relate to alcohol making it worse when you have chronic restlessness.
I had once been submitted to a quite large orthopedic surgery but before that we've tried a bit of everything in order to keep the pain manageable. Sometimes I used to feel like my legs would simply 'break'.
In 2 years I guess I've tried a lot of different medicines (painkillers) and treatments to try to avoid or postpone a surgery of that size.

But drinking would always make me feel worse. Not once but most of the times.
Even a couple of years after the surgery drinking sort of reminded me of these so uncomfortable feelings.
 
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