Psychedelics and the occult

[Doldrugs]

I know what the observer effect is, but it's not relevant to anything you're talking about. Quantum mechanics can't be scaled up to phenomena directly observable by an unaided person. This is actually a common misconception of quantum physics.

You're referencing science but you're not talking about anything scientific. Feelings you feel (especially while altered) do not trump centuries of legitimate inductive reasoning.

In short, you're welcome to believe in magic, but claiming science has anything to do with it is not remotely true.

 

[swilow]

What I described is known in Physics as the Observer Effect. This concept is so commonly known and written about not only throughout the current mainstream Scientific community, but has been explained in Western Magickal texts for the last several hundred years, as well as the ancient Vedic Scriptures (which are the oldest writings on the planet), and Scientology and it's offshoots.

Mainstream science is constantly claiming to "discover" things, such as this phenomena, even though it has been widely known for thousands of years by the Spiritually Enlightened. They're just trying to play catch up to the Knowledge and Wisdom already known and utilized by millions of people for as far back as we have historical records.

Here's a link to the Wikipedia article explaining the Observer Effect:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect_(physics)

Whose claims look absurd now, my friend?

(I know this post came off sounding snarky, so I apologize if I've offended you. That wasn't my intention, so please forgive me. :D )

The observer effect and the outcome of magickal ceremonies is in no way related. By the logic you may be operating under, anything that an individual desires can become their own, and yet we have seen no evidence of the world becoming more just and fair.

Most occult practises recognise that very little ritual and ceremony is aimed at impacting another separate individuals world; rather, all the changes sought and wrought by magick occur solely with the practitioners own head.

I don't think this makes these practises to be of less value though

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

Everything you have said is exactly true. Right on! Magick works, like you said, by Causing profound change to occur in one's subjective universe, and then projecting the Energy of those personal changes into the objective universe, causing one's environment to change correspondingly. However, you didn't state the one absolute necessity for accomplishing this feat: the Magickal Link. This is basically the Hyperdimensional Doorway between one's subjective universe and the objective universe. Using the Magickal Link is the ONLY way to pass through the barrier between the universes. This Link can also be used to cause changes in someone else's subjective universe, though one treads the razor's edge between White and Black Magick by doing this, even if you have the best of intentions to help the other person. If you aren't aware of the complexities of the Law of Karma and the possible consequences involved, I would advise staying away from attempting this. Also, you must consider that by causing any physical, mental, or spiritual changes in someone else without their participation, and especially if they aren't aware of what you're doing, you're basically overriding the person's Free Will to make changes in themselves on their own under their own control, hence this whole operation is pure Black Magick and WILL have karmic repercussions sooner or later.

I going to have to disagree with much of this. This magickal link is not absolutley necessary as I personally know a few athiest magicians and I know of many more. I also don't agree with how you view karma but my opinions just my own and no more valid than anyone else's.
I see no differentiation between what you are calling "white" and "black" magick. Every single interaction between between to things (even people) is a battle of will. Every conversation, every communication is a sort of attack where one party is "attacking" another's world view. Influence of people against their will happens every second of every day in most simple conversations.
People project their wills and attempt influence each other all the time without even realizing it. I'm doing right now :D
I've spent a long time studying right hand path schools and learned all I felt I could from them. Now I study left hand path schools and what I've really learned is the vital importance of what most people call "evil". Such forces drive evolution and life itself. People that fear such things are not ready to have any understanding of them.
Having true balance means standing in between what some people call "evil" and "good".

 

[TheLostSun]

altered states of unconscious have profound effects on are physical conscience i have had very intense obe dreams where i would literally battle with entities and would wake up with buzzing ears and a beating heart <similar to psychedelic head space n body reactions> and turn on the light only to haves bulbs blow out n tonal ring shifts occur i have witness people die infront of me and felt there spirit literally fly right pass me sort of like etheric wind these a very distinctive feelings that will always remain with you so its definitely a experience effect not something one can really express in words i have never dabbled with ritual magic cause not only is it real but can have devastating effects on a person if not prepared or initiated in the right group i see alot of these threads popping up on bluelight lately and i think its for the better tbh but everything you were told as a child is fairytale n folklore is absolutely real in most circumstances

[video=youtube_share;Ou0Fl_5_fHQ]http://youtu.be/Ou0Fl_5_fHQ?list=UU7qXNBcskmbawHBaZRSTSeQ[/video]

 

[lovepsychadelics]

Read up on Aleister Crowley.

 

[Shamanism]

Oh boy.. a few years ago, I had focussed my curiousity on Aleister Crowley and had read most of his work and was reading through the Abramelin at that time. There were some strange things happening and I thnk I might have subconsciously started some thing while reading the book..
(I later read somewhere where he warned some one to not even toutch the book when not prepared / willing to face the concequences, this probably is good advice.)

During that period lots of trange things happened (also while not on any drugs) the most 'striking' example was at the start of that period, where my partner still some doubt: At night while we were both asleep in our small bedroom, doors, windows closed, both nicely tucked in under our blankets in our bed opposite an extra rack of her clothes which took up most of the space

I suddenly woke up/set upright and yelled: Hoppa! (while thinking here it comes! (Don't ask me why, I just woke up remember?))
My girlfriend also sat up and then: something somehow loudly rattled her clothes/hangers in one long forcefull sweep from right to left. (I dont know if it was me wanting to show her, an entity or both?)

I have tried rationalizing it but there was nothing like wind or any of us even touching that rack.
And just to be clear we were sober and asleep before this ocurrence and did not use drugs that week.

After that neither of us had any more doubts.

The more puzzling for me is that I did not intend to do this or wanted to show her anything, but we had a very strange link her and I especially while sleeping.
I remember waking up or at least opening my eyes one night (I sometimes do that while dreaming lucid) while being aware of having an internal conversation with someone about 'me', instructing her to handle me and a situation in a certain way..

But to my astonishment, while asleep she answerd me, not just internally but verbally, really talking in her sleep!
That really woke me up and ended the 'conversation' as I was tottally perplexed.

It felt like I overheard our 'higher selves' discussing as parents how my girlfriend and I could best handle certain aspects of our waking lives. How about that?

 

[Libertin]

I'm a skeptic when it comes to the occult. You might as well smear mayonnaise on a oujia board, as far as I'm concerned any method or technique from the occult would be no more effective (in whatever it is you're trying to accomplish).

When it comes to tripping, why would you try anything 'occult' if you don't believe in it?

Why do people believe in this shit? Well I think I have an explanation. Because people want to feel powerful and or knowledgeable. The esoteric nature of the occult allows a person to feel that they have knowledge or power inaccessible to most others.

The occult provides the fool with a dose of egotism.

 

[Doldrugs]

I suddenly woke up/set upright and yelled: Hoppa! (while thinking here it comes! Don't ask me why I just woke up remember?)
My girlfriend also sat up and at that moment something somehow (I dont know if it was me wanting to show her, an entity or both?) loudly rattled her clothes/hangers in one long forcefull sweep from right to left.

I have tried rationalizing it but there was nothing like wind or any of us even touching that rack.

After that neither of us had any more doubts.

It amazes me how such mundane, inconsequential events are held up as proof of some enormous, impossible truth. It's not just this guy; pretty much everyone who holds religious or supernatural beliefs has some story like this. It's like they feel like they have to offer proof but are prepared to accept anything as evidence and don't realize how unconvincing the events they present are.

If that's all it took to sweep away your belief in scientifically grounded reality, it seems to me you really wanted those doubts to be gone. Our minds have a tendency to oblige us in these circumstances.

Why do people believe in this shit? Well I think I have an explanation. Because people want to feel powerful and or knowledgeable. The esoteric nature of the occult allows a person to feel that they have knowledge or power inaccessible to most others.

The occult provides the fool with a dose of egotism.

All of this.

 

[Doldrugs]

Scientists are by definition open minded and large minded. They follow the evidence, whether it confirms or denies their preconceptions. A rational thinker is open to any possibility, but acts on the knowledge of what is most likely to be true rather than what he or she wants to be true.

In any event, I feel the realities and possibilities of the universe are awesomely vast and breathtaking. Putting your faith into nonsense does a great disservice to the beauty and power of what science shows us.

 

[Shamanism]

It amazes me how such mundane, inconsequential events are held up as proof of some enormous, impossible truth.

Where is your proof of this alledged proof?

I share a personal experience that was as unbelievable to me than it is for you which I am unable to explain due to the circumstances you misconstrued as uncientific assumpion of proof: closed small room, both sleeping in bed, no drugs, could not reach rack of clothes. Indeed NO PROOF you are absolutely right.

Did it happen?
As far as me and her goes: No doubt about it.

But if it will help you function better in day to day life or cheer you up: I'm happy to send you a PM saying it didn't happen and it all was a bad dream..

It is not like I was saying: ..I know the spirit that assaulted my girlfriends clothes because...

He wrote AND signed a small but sufficient note reading: Fuck you & good bye!

...after I banished him with a ritual I have been performing which clearly is effective because he was obviously pissed off and confused when he left..

I make no claims to 'the truth' (especially when it is enourmous and impossible), nor do I want to treathen anyones version of it or offend anybody, if I did I'm sorry.

Just because you dont believe this doesn't give you the right to paint me as an occult fanatic (I'm not, really, I am only guilty of reading books) or delusional egotist. (my reasonably stable ex gf as a witness)

I provide no evidence other than my experience, one that 'rattled' me and my girlfriend quite a bit.
An experience I can't prove (neither could my mom when she started tripping when she accidently panfried some cubensis thinking I got her wild mushrooms) and don't think science can either. 8)

I'm just a curious dude who loves the unknown especially the bizarre and incredible stuff
(I have not much interest in what everybody knows or thinks)

As far as I'm concered I'm fairly sure science will never provide the answer to what caused 'the event' that night so why wait or get frustrated, just enjoy your day.

 

[Xorkoth]

While I believe that people frequently allow events to become linked in their minds to things they want to believe without giving adequate consideration to more probable causes, I also believe that there is nothing we can entirely disregard as being impossible. Think of the incredible complexity of the workings of reality, which keeps becoming crazier as we discover more and more with science. As I see it, science and spirituality are beginning to overlap. The greatest scientists in history have all challenged worldviews that were set in stone, gone against people saying "that's retarded, how could you believe that?"

Now, granted, they did so with the scientific method. But not all of us are scientists. I see nothing foolish in people believing something unconventional when they feel they have had experiences they can't explain with established knowledge, and have made attempts as such. They may be wrong, but they may not be, we really don't know, and hence, it's wise to reserve judgment at least even if you don't agree with that belief. I mean, science has shown us that we and all other matter is nearly all just empty space, that we are made up of billions of independent and interrelated living cells, that there are points in space so dense as to form a singularity from which not even light can escape, that our entire universe began some 14 billion years ago as a singularity itself that expanded and condensed, that we ourselves are made from the reaction products of stars and supernovas, that atoms at least can be teleported. These things would have seemed like utter nonsense - at best - to anyone alive before science discovered these things. I don't know if things such as spirits, telepathy, telekinesis, the occult, reincarnation and so forth are real or not, but I'm certainly not putting them off the table or going to try to claim that science will never discover evidence of any of them, or any of the other things that people of our time tend to scoff at.

I have also had experiences I simply cannot explain, not of the occult, but of apparent (and really intense) cases of telepathy, dream communication between me and my ex-wife (we both woke up, looked at each other and described the same dream we both experienced), spirits and synchronicities. I'm not willing to say with 100% certainty that I have any idea if they were more than extremely intense coincidences, but to just simply deny them (especially as someone who wasn't involved in any way) seems pretty short-sighted and presumptuous. My mother dreamed her father's funeral 2 months before it happened (and he died of a sudden unexpected heart attack pretty young), and then the funeral happened precisely how she dreamt it, down to specific conversations. Things happen that seem magical or mystical, and one day I'm sure science will have explanations. It just hasn't gotten there yet. All "magic" is is properties of existence we have not yet been able to explain.

 

[Doldrugs]

If you can't think of a rational explanation for that story you're either lazy or you want it to be "unexplainable."

It sounds like a classic case of sleep paralysis paired with the natural suggestibility of a half asleep mind. I've seen and heard terrifying things during sleep paralysis. I've experienced almost identical things as you're describing and things much more fantastical. These incidents are fascinating but they didn't influence me spiritually.

Alternately it could be the clothes shifting on the rack. I've seen this create sudden and unexpected movement many times. The forces of friction and gravity suddenly emerge from their stalemate.

I could go on, but the fact is I wasn't there and I don't know you. So I'm missing a lot of detail that could make one possibility more likely. I'm sure you can convince yourself that these possibilities are untrue because you want them to be.

@xorkoth: I don't think it's presumptuous to advocate rational thinking. Irrational thinking gave us the inquisition, witch trials, and the war on drugs.

 

[phuckingnutz]

I'm not sure exactly where I stand in all this, but it will be a sad day when the only things that are left to be "discovered" are scientific things...when nothing is magical anymore won't the world be a drab and boring place to exist?

 

[Xorkoth]

@xorkoth: I don't think it's presumptuous to advocate rational thinking. Irrational thinking gave us the inquisition, witch trials, and the war on drugs.

No, of course not. I'm speaking generally, not about that story specifically. But I don't know how to explain that my ex-wife and I had the same dream in which we were experiencing it together in the dream. I don't know how to explain how my mom foresaw her dad's funeral in exacting detail before she even had an inkling he'd die soon. I'm just saying that sometimes there are things that happen that people fail to be able to think of a scientific explanation for. And to then begin to believe in something that science does not support (at least not yet) as an explanation because of it, I'm saying that doesn't necessarily mean someone is failing to think rationally (though often it does).

 

[phuckingnutz]

an explanation because of it, I'm saying that doesn't necessarily mean someone is failing to think rationally (though often it does).

What is or isn't rational is completely subjective...talking to the Spirits is perfectly rational for the Shaman, but not, maybe for a fortune 5 CEO any more than an acquisition of material wealth is for the Shaman.

 

[Doldrugs]

I'm not sure exactly where I stand in all this, but it will be a sad day when the only things that are left to be "discovered" are scientific things...when nothing is magical anymore won't the world be a drab and boring place to exist?

No it won't. The scientific explanations are often more complex, rich, and interesting than the supernatural explanations. One doesn't have to invent explanations to spice up the universe. It's already infinitely fascinating and beautiful.

What is or isn't rational is completely subjective...

No, it's not. Rational thought is concerned with the objective by definition.

 

[Shamanism]

I understand that reading this post from a certain 'Shamanism' on this particular subject on a forum where some people feel the need to post things like 'God has finally done it, he did it!' while tripping balls.. People would be tempted to think along similar lines: dudes thinks he's a shaman lol yes.. yes.. likes esoteric stuff, psychedelics probably a short psychotic episode and perhaps a very sugestable girlfriend..

Unfortunately/fortunately not:
My home is very small my bedroom is almost the size of a large shoebox, almost as if in a vacuum..
I did look for other more preferable explanations, even the posibillity of me having a brief psychotic episode or sleep paralysis but no I woke up a witness and after that we were awake for sure.
Also this wasn't an isolated event, then I would have watered it down during time wanting to believe it was all a bad dream.. Although I dislike the option of a brief demonic possession or latently being a powerfull wizzard who likes to scare the bejezus out of his girl (including himself), I have found this however unlikely, the case. Although I am not equipped to defend my experience to modern science or debate the validity of the paranormal, neither can scientists in some cases. But as you can see this can turn into a cheap arguement of proof by lack of evidence to the contrary..

I'm sorry to have derailed this tread, by putting myself in a spot where I felt the need to defend myself, due to emotions.

This post had nothing to do with psychedelics and the effect they have on the occult, or how substances can be / are used as tools to facillitate psychic abillities, like healing, clairvoyance, telekinesis and the like.

 

[Xorkoth]

No it won't. The scientific explanations are often more complex, rich, and interesting than the supernatural explanations. One doesn't have to invent explanations to spice up the universe. It's already infinitely fascinating and beautiful.

I agree with that, I think everything that's real has an explanation we can discover through science, and that science has revealed to us a reality infinitely more complex and beautiful than anything we have previously imagined. This is one of my greatest joys and inspirations, and like Einstein, I find it to be intensely spiritual. I just think a lot of people limit themselves to what science currently knows as far as what they believe is possible, and discount the experiences of others that do not align with this. Which is what I think is short-sighted, though understandable. When electricity was first discovered people thought of it as supernatural, yet today we accept it as basic fact. Many early astronomers were tortured or killed for suggesting that the sun goes around the Earth. Science (such as it was) at the time had not yet found evidence of a grander, more amazing universe, yet it was still true. These examples seem silly today, but it's the same thing. We don't know everything and we never will, so to close off completely to whatever we don't yet understand is the same mistake people have been making since the dawn of history.

It's a fine line to walk. I try to stay open, but critical of my experiences, understanding that usually something that seems unexplainable is in fact something more mundane, a coincidence, etc. However like I said, I have had experiences I am unable to discount as such, hence it only makes sense to me to believe that there are real things going on that we just don't yet understand, which at the moment most people give terms to such as "supernatural", etc.

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

I'm a skeptic when it comes to the occult. You might as well smear mayonnaise on a oujia board, as far as I'm concerned any method or technique from the occult would be no more effective (in whatever it is you're trying to accomplish).

When it comes to tripping, why would you try anything 'occult' if you don't believe in it?

Why do people believe in this shit? Well I think I have an explanation. Because people want to feel powerful and or knowledgeable. The esoteric nature of the occult allows a person to feel that they have knowledge or power inaccessible to most others.

The occult provides the fool with a dose of egotism.

This actually somewhat true for most "fluff" new agers. However, the entire point of legitimate mystery schools is to conquer the ego. How many ascetic budhists do you think are filled with egotism?

 

[Doldrugs]

There's actually good science behind a lot of Buddhist practices.