Daily pushup routine

[Fjones]

Jogging and sprinting use most of the same muscles.

However, just because you can jog for 10 miles, does not mean you will be a great sprinter. Which is why the push up/bench press correlation is relatively weak.

With apologies, I have to say I find this a very weak analogy.

Jogging and springing place entirely different demands on the cardiovascular system. I woudl also say that ones cardiovascular endurance is a greater factor in running ability than leg strength. So, I don't see this as a particularly relevant analogy.

Look, can we agree that someone who weighs 150 and can bench 225 by 6 has very well conditioned chest and triceps muscles? And that he possible has a frame that results in a short range fo motion for performing the bench press?

If so, I just don't see why this person would only be able to do 46 push-ups. Exactly what muscles is he lacking that prevents him from doing more push-ups?

 

[sunyata]

why not train for an 8 week cycle doing pushups and at the end try to determine whether or not it helps your bench. It probably will (again the scapular stability issue). This sort of issue cannot be solved with a priori reasoning...you have to get out there and get some experience

Its not going to make you into a beast though. You need squats and floor presses for that

but it depends on your goals I suppose. If your goal is to do a lot of pushups, I'll let you in on a secret for getting to that goal:












do a lot of pushups




most people have a goal of getting a huge chest and being able to press 3 plates per side or something modest like that :D most people don't give a shit about pushups or how many you can do

 

[Fjones]

yes thats a good way to put it I think to really make the difference clear - jogging stimulates the same muscles as a squat but nobody jogs to get gnarly tree trunk legs. You squat for that.

I see, so you are just ignoring two key thigns here.

1) you are comparing a cardiovascular activity (jogging) to a strength and power activity (squatting).

If I am doign any kind of running, the limiting factor is my cardiovascular conditioning. I reach a point where I cnanot continue increasing exertion because my heart is not capable of delivering any more oxygen to my body.

When I max out on a squat, the problem is that my muscles are in capable of lifting any additional weight.

Those are two very different things.

However, with the push-ups / benching comparison, we have this --

When a person cannot bench press any more weight, it is because his arms and chest cannot lift any more weight, and when a person cannot do another pushup, it is because his arms and chest are not capable of pushing his weight away from the floor one more time.

 

[Fjones]

why not train for an 8 week cycle doing pushups and at the end try to determine whether or not it helps your bench. It probably will (again the scapular stability issue). This sort of issue cannot be solved with a priori reasoning...you have to get out there and get some experience

Its not going to make you into a beast though. You need squats and floor presses for that

Like I said, I am not a noob. I have experience. I have been lifting weights, doign cardiovascular training and playing sports for years. And I have never encountered soemone with such a disproportionate split between his pushups and bench press.
Again, let's remember, we're talking about two males here --
Male A weighs 150 pounds and can do 46 push-ups and can bench 150X6
Male B weight 150 pounds and can do 46 pushups and can bench 225 by 6?

That is an extreme difference, and I don't see how "scapular stability" explains that gap.

Like I said, I am not saying that the guy is wrong about his bench. Maybe he has disproportionate upper/lower body strength. Maybe he is not doing the bench presses with good form. The majority of people at the gym do exercises with weights that are way too heavy using the most godawful form and then brag about how much weight they lift.

 

[Fjones]

why not train for an 8 week cycle doing pushups and at the end try to determine whether or not it helps your bench. It probably will (again the scapular stability issue). This sort of issue cannot be solved with a priori reasoning...you have to get out there and get some experience

Its not going to make you into a beast though. You need squats and floor presses for that

but it depends on your goals I suppose. If your goal is to do a lot of pushups, I'll let you in on a secret for getting to that goal:




do a lot of pushups




most people have a goal of getting a huge chest and being able to press 3 plates per side or something modest like that :D most people don't give a shit about pushups or how many you can do

Sigh. Yes, I understand that. But a funny thing happens when someone increases his bench prss from 150 to 225. He can do more push-ups! Why? Because they use the SAME MUSCLES.

Can you give me one plausible scenario where someone would increase his bench press from 150 to 225 without gaining much weight but does NOT increase his number of pushups at all?

 

[sunyata]

first of all, weight lifting is a cardiovascular activity, it increases pulse and blood pressure (the latter to extreme proportions on max effort attempts).

I think the distinction you are looking for is aerobic versus anaerobic.

I find bench pressing more purely anaerobic while pushups are moderately anaerobic but mainly an aerobic activity (ie conditioning).

I don't understand your interest in comparing two individuals though. Two individuals is not enough to draw an extrapolation from, come on now There are too many individual variables that are not known that could throw off the comparison

 

[sunyata]

Sigh. Yes, I understand that. But a funny thing happens when someone increases his bench prss from 150 to 225. He can do more push-ups! Why? Because they use the SAME MUSCLES.

Can you give me one plausible scenario where someone would increase his bench press from 150 to 225 without gaining much weight but does NOT increase his number of pushups at all?

He can do more pushups because pushups at his BW have become more aerobic (less of an anaerobic activity) because he has raised his max level of strength through enlarging his muscles by benching, thus raising the aerobic-anaerobic threshold and thusly tax his upper body much less.

 

[Fjones]

first of all, weight lifting is a cardiovascular activity, it increases pulse and blood pressure (the latter to extreme proportions on max effort attempts).

I think the distinction you are looking for is aerobic versus anaerobic.

I find bench pressing more purely anaerobic while pushups are moderately anaerobic but mainly an aerobic activity (ie conditioning).

I don't understand your interest in comparing two individuals though. Two individuals is not enough to draw an extrapolation from, come on now There are too many individual variables that are not known that could throw off the comparison

I will try to get a few more replies in before I head out to the gym (where i wil do bench presses and deadlifts but no pushups


Yes, weightlifting has benefits to one's cardiovascular health. I think you know what I meant though. People don't fail on pushups because they are out of breath. They fail because their muscles are maxed out.

When jogging or running, people fail because they are out of breath.

The only reason I am pressing thism atter is, If this guy cna bench 225 X 6 and I can bench 150 X 6, I woudl like to know what he is doing that I am not.

Theo bvious answer is that he has stronger arms and chest than I do, but then that begs the question as to why we can do the same number of push-ups.

Again, we are not talking about a small difference here. How many 150 pound people can bench 225 by 6 with proper form? One out of 1000? I would guess even that is an overestimate.

 

[Fjones]

Overall I feel like I am not lifting as much as I should be. Maybe I am not geenrating enough power for some reason. I think i will videotape myself so I can watch in frame by frams slow motion. I am 5 foot 8 and 150 pounds, maybe 153 or something, and I have low body fat (enough to saee slight traces of abdominal striations). But my power lifts are unimpressive across the board.

Bench -- 150 3X 5 or 6 approximately,
Squat -- 185 3 X 5
Deadlift 195 5 reps

I have some grip issues that affect my power clean, deadlift, and row, but they don't really affect my pressing and squatting.

 

[Binge Artist]

Like I said, I am not a noob. I have experience. I have been lifting weights, doign cardiovascular training and playing sports for years. And I have never encountered soemone with such a disproportionate split between his pushups and bench press.
Again, let's remember, we're talking about two males here --
Male A weighs 150 pounds and can do 46 push-ups and can bench 150X6
Male B weight 150 pounds and can do 46 pushups and can bench 225 by 6?

That is an extreme difference, and I don't see how "scapular stability" explains that gap.

Like I said, I am not saying that the guy is wrong about his bench. Maybe he has disproportionate upper/lower body strength. Maybe he is not doing the bench presses with good form. The majority of people at the gym do exercises with weights that are way too heavy using the most godawful form and then brag about how much weight they lift.

To make this hypothetical situation even more to the point, let's suppose that Male A and Male B are TWINS...identical twins.

Today, suppose both Male A and Male B can do exactly 30 push ups, and bench press exactly 175 lbs.

They begin a training regimine, where A does 2 max sets of push ups every other day, and B does 3x3 to failure on the bench press about once every 5 days.

In about 3 months or so, a plausible result would be that A can do about 75 push ups, but only bench 185, while B can only do about 35 push ups, but can bench 215.

Why? Even though both twins targeted the same muscle groups, they targeted different fiber types and energy systems.

 

[Binge Artist]

Overall I feel like I am not lifting as much as I should be. Maybe I am not geenrating enough power for some reason. I think i will videotape myself so I can watch in frame by frams slow motion. I am 5 foot 8 and 150 pounds, maybe 153 or something, and I have low body fat (enough to saee slight traces of abdominal striations). But my power lifts are unimpressive across the board.

Bench -- 150 3X 5 or 6 approximately,
Squat -- 185 3 X 5
Deadlift 195 5 reps

I have some grip issues that affect my power clean, deadlift, and row, but they don't really affect my pressing and squatting.

BTW, there's an "implicit" fallacy here. Just because you are lean and muscular for your height, doesn't mean that you "should" be able to lift more. Pure 1RM strength is more about "neural efficiency" than muscle mass--ie, more mind, less matter. There are probably several 150 lb men out there with scrawny shoulders, sunken in chests, and beer guts who could out bench you by 100 lbs or more.

 

[Fjones]

To make this hypothetical situation even more to the point, let's suppose that Male A and Male B are TWINS...identical twins.

Today, suppose both Male A and Male B can do exactly 30 push ups, and bench press exactly 175 lbs.

They begin a training regimine, where A does 2 max sets of push ups every other day, and B does 3x3 to failure on the bench press about once every 5 days.

In about 3 months or so, a plausible result would be that A can do about 75 push ups, but only bench 185, while B can only do about 35 push ups, but can bench 215.

Why? Even though both twins targeted the same muscle groups, they targeted different fiber types and energy systems.

your Hypothetical situation doesn't seem very likely. In fact it seems very unlikely.

Look folks, I appreciate the great lengths you are willing to go to in making it seem as though the Push-up and Bench press are dramatically different exercises that use completely different "fibers" or "systems," but uh, well, I don't mean to point out he obvious here, but, THEY ARE BASICALLY THE SAME EXERCISE!

Seriously, think of all the different exercises that are possible -- Deadlift, squat, Power Clean, Rows, lat pulldowns, calf raises, sit-ups, pull-ups, dips, shrugs, push-ups, overhead presds, bench press, etc.

Two of the exercises in that group are almost identical to each other but very much unlike any of the others.

What are these mystery "energy systems" that result in two people stimulating the same muscles in almost exactly the same way but with such dramatically different results?

If the person doing the bench presses is using bad enough form that he is using muscles other than his chest and triceps and shoulders to perform a bench press, then I suppose he could significvantly increase his bench press without increasing the number of push-ups he can do.

Again, I just don't understand this. The Bench press and the pushup are about as similar as two different exercises can be.

Every lifter I have met or spoke to follows the pattern of being able to do more pushups as he increases the amount he can bench press relative to his weight.

I guess people here think that a 150 pound person who can Bench 225 X 6 is normal or common. It isn't. It is extrelemy rare. This person should be sculpted like a rock with almost no bodyfat whatsoever, and then I would be delighted to hear some sort of explanation for why someone with such well defined chest and arms and a light body weight of only 150 would top out at 46 pushups.

Yes, every person is different, but not THAT different. Yes, the push-up and Bench press are SLIGHTLY different, but not THAT different.

This seems like saying, "Johnny can curl 50 pound dumbbells, but he can hammer curl only 25 pound dumbbells." And then when someone objects, talking about different fibers or muscle systems or something.

Look, we can agree to disagree, but I am calling bullshit on the 225 X 6 or the 46 pushups. One of those is wrong.

 

[Fjones]

BTW, there's an "implicit" fallacy here. Just because you are lean and muscular for your height, doesn't mean that you "should" be able to lift more. Pure 1RM strength is more about "neural efficiency" than muscle mass--ie, more mind, less matter. There are probably several 150 lb men out there with scrawny shoulders, sunken in chests, and beer guts who could out bench you by 100 lbs or more.

Oh? That's a bold statement, and one that I disagree with entirely. Sorry, but the chest and triceps are what raises the bar, not mental energy, unless you are comparing me to Jean Grey or someone else who can move thigns telekinetically.

It is easy for you st say wehat you said, but I think the notion of an out of shape 150 pound man with no chest and scrawny shouldes out benching me by 100 pounds is absurd.

There are 150 pound men who can out bench me by 100 pounds, and they have this in common --

A) They have Larger Chests and triceps than I do, and as a result of that,
B) They can do a HELL OF A LOT more than the 46 pushups I cna do.

Also I wasn't really talking about 1RM. The discussion ensued when a 150 pound man said he can bench 225 X 6 and do 46 pushups, which I found odd as a 150 pound man who can bench 155 X 6 and do 46 pushups.

 

[Fjones]

BTW, there's an "implicit" fallacy here. Just because you are lean and muscular for your height, doesn't mean that you "should" be able to lift more. Pure 1RM strength is more about "neural efficiency" than muscle mass--ie, more mind, less matter. There are probably several 150 lb men out there with scrawny shoulders, sunken in chests, and beer guts who could out bench you by 100 lbs or more.

In that post that you quoted I was acknowledging that I may have some flaws in my technique -- I.E., in the way I am driving or generating force or power. I suggested this as a way to account for SOME of the difference, but not all of it.

Look, I knwo it seems like I am arguing one against the world here, but I have spoken to several people, and they all agree --

A 150 pound male who can bench 225X6 should be able to do over 100 pushups, and there is no reasonable explanation for why he would top out at 46.

The consensus is that he is lying about his Bench, was inaccurate in estimating or counting his pushups, or has atrocious form on the Bench Press.

 

[The Real Fatman]

I bench 225 X 8 and weigh 220 I max out my pushups at about 90 if I got a buddy thats about 170 benches the same as me and can knock out 120 pushups on his pt test

 

[Binge Artist]

Lol.

Fjones--I know it sounds logical to assume that lighter people with high bench presses should be able to to bust out push ups all day long. Likewise, it sounds illogical to assume that there are scrawny, underdeveloped-looking folks with amazing bench presses. But the fact of the matter is...it happens.

A few additional comments on what you've posted.

In the case of the scrawny guy with a huge bench press, you assume he has bad form, if he can't do many push ups. But by your logic, he could apply the same bad form to the push up to get more reps.

As far as the different fiber types go, the two most well known are the "fast twitch" and the "slow twitch"--the former used mostly for explosive strength, the latter used mostly for "endurance strength"...sort of like what one would need to do high rep sets of...say...push ups.

As far as the energy systems go, well I'm a little shakey on this myself. But I have heard that different rep ranges tax different "energy systems"...whatever that should mean. For example, creatine helps sprinters more than mile runners.

Also, there's not a PROFOUND difference between 1RM strength and 6RM strength. Usually, you could use either one to estimate the other. In fact, there are charts for such comparisons. Perhaps more importantly, these charts are only valid up to about 10 reps. In other words, there is no chart which compares 1RM or 6RM strength to, say, 46RM strength. This, in and of itself, should tell you something.

As far as 150 lb men who can bench 225 for 6 reps, no that is definitely not common. But such men do exist, and they're not necessarily thickly muscled in their chest or triceps. If, for example, they have mostly "fast twitch" muscles, chances are they can't do too many push ups. Sure, the first few reps would feel extremely light to them, but very soon, their "fast twitch" muscles would give out on them, and they'd be left with...little or nothing.

 

[Fjones]

Well binge artist, you make some interesting points and I'll admit that I am intrigued.

How about we just say that both sides are possible right now?

It is POSSIBLE that the guy who said he can bench 225 X 6 at 150 Lb and can only do 46 pushups is compeltely correct,

And it is POSSIBLE that he is exaggerating or inaccurate with some part fo that or that he is using bad form on the bench.

The first one seems less likely, though I cannot rule it out since I am not him and I am not watching him work out.

Again, let's remember that many people say "I can squat __________ " but really mean "I can quarter squat _______ by leaning my knees forward and using very poor form"

And many people say "I can bench ________" when what they really mean is "I can bench _______ if I arch my entuire body with my butt well off the bench and the bar gogni up wobly snd unevenly and not coming within 6 inches of my chest"

And "I can curl _____LB dumbbells" when they mean "I can grab a ____ LB dumbbell and full body heave it above my shoulder and then slide my body under it, all the while moving my upper arm and elbow forward"

etc.

 

[Binge Artist]

Well, if we go on statistics alone, then yes, the guy was lying.

Even though there are 150 lb men who can bench 225 for 5 or 6 reps, they are exceptionally rare. In fact, I'd say your guess of 1:1000 was probably an OVER estimate. Also...and not to "knock" Bluelight, lol...but what would the odds be that such an elite strength athlete hangs out on a rec drugs site?

Anyway, I was always taught that there are about four or five distinct goals in weight training.

1. Explosive power--lifts like power cleans, snatches, etc, that are done very quickly, and in a somewhat less controlled manner.

2. Strength--Maximizing ones 1RM (or 2, 3...10RM) on basic compound lifts like benches, rows, squats, etc, using a slow, controlled motion with very good form.

3. Size--Similar to maximizing ones 6-10RM strength, only with more overall volume (ie, more sets than if one were training purely for 6-10RM strength), slower motion, and additional "isolation" movements to further work body parts that weren't hit directly in the compound lifts.

4. Endurance--Similar to maximizing ones 15+RM, or using the same weight, and gaining more and more reps (ie, like push ups).

Obviously, there will be some carry over effects. For example, if you're training strictly for strength, you will most likely also become more explosive, bigger, and have more endurance. Nonetheless, this "carry over" will be nowhere near 1 to 1. For otherwise, Olympic lifters, power lifters, bodybuilders and tri-atheletes would all train the same.