Enough. Reform the lounge already

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And now some of the most worthless former members , along with some current members (I assume), have decided to create fake accounts on redlight.com using the same username and avatar as people here on this site, solely for the purpose of mocking them. What a pathetic group of losers. Are they trying to justify their own bans even further?

I agree with some of what you say in your post, but just quickly: BL is not responsible for redlight, doesn't endorse it, doesn't have, or want to have, anything to do with it. I would strongly recommend ignoring it completely :).

[I'm sure someone else said this already, I've only read first post]
 
No, a problem is the poor state of public education. A problem is your car making a terrible noise. Individual life-changing (or ending) events are not problems. They are tragedies. One person using a racial slur to name-call someone else is a problem. It is not a life-ending tragedy.

Why are you so passive-aggressive in your answers? It is unbecoming of someone that holds themselves above us ignorant rabble to try to claim fair statements when they come in the form of sarcastic, dismissive quips about your perception of the other's intelligence. (This is an obvious demonstration of passive aggression)

If you notice, I have asked questions about your participation in the funding of this site and asked you to change the things that you see as broken. I did not name call and I did not try to paint myself as anything. I did not tell anything, I showed it. Please, before pointing out the speck in my eye, remove the plank from yours.



I am not sure why I am so passive aggressive. It isn't intentional. I actually think of myself as overtly aggressive, not passive-aggressive. Either way, I would like to change the way I interact with people here. I think I have some good ideas, and, for certain topics, I have a lot of information to share.

Unfortunately, much of that is lost in the melee that often ensues as a result of my communication failures with people.

So to answer your questions honestly -- I don't know. I guess my biggest problems are A) I respond too quickly without thinking things through, and B) I don't review my posts to see how the overall tone is, and C) I am absolutely terrible at seeing things from other people's point of view, and I have a hard time figuring out how others will perceive what I write.

I find this especially difficult on the internet, where tone and context are often lost for various reasons.


Regarding contributing financially, I did not mean to dodge the issue, I just don't have much extra money right now. I hope that changes soon and I expect it to. I would like to donate. I have donated to sites in the past when I find them valuable, as I do this one.

That said, if I had donated, would that somehow justify my abrasive and confrontational attitude? I don't think it would, which is another reason I ignored the question.

regarding this --

"It is unbecoming of someone that holds themselves above us ignorant rabble to try to claim fair statements when they come in the form of sarcastic, dismissive quips about your perception of the other's intelligence. (This is an obvious demonstration of passive aggression)"


I will try to address that.

Look, the simple fact is, I am smarter than most people. I am not saying that to boast or aggrandize myself in any way or to put anyone else down. I state it as a simple fact.

Now, that does NOT mean that what I say is right and what others say is wrong.

But SOMETIMES a situation comes up where the other person IS wrong, but simply doesn't seem to be able to understand why. When that happens, there are only so many ways I can explain it before i get frustrated. And if the person then says I am stupid, it becomes all the more frustrating -- because now, not only is the person not grasping the concept, but he is implying that it is MY lack of intelligence that is causing the problem.

Does this sound arrogant? I hope not because I am just trying to explain myself and illustrate a point.

Suppose I say that "If A then B." And someone argues with me, and attempts to disprove what I am saying by showing that B does not cause A.

What that person is doing does not make sense and is just plain WRONG. There is no gray area. When we say "A causes B," we are not saying anything about what B causes or doesn't cause.

But, people will make that error, and similar errors, and act as though they have said something clever or logical, when all they have said is nonsense.

I can explain the errors several different ways, but then people say I am bullying or being pedantic. So what am I supposed to do in that situation?

There are DOZENS of rules of logic, and when they are violated, the argument is invalid! Yet most people don't know these rules of logic or the associated logical fallacies, and they don't care to learn them. However, if they choose to remain ignorant, they shouldn’t be so argumentative about it.

What I am getting at is, anyone who doesn't understand the rules of logic falls into two categories –

A) not smart enough to understand them or
B) is smart enough but has chosen not to

I have little patience for people from group A who are UNAWARE of their deficiency and choose to argue illogically.
And I have little tolerance for people from group B either, because they are passing up a chance to learn how to form logical, valid, cogent arguments, but then they debate in ways that are just illogical and frustrating.
I guess I don’t know how to point out when someone has violated a rule of logic without sounding like an ass.
When I teach SAT classes, or when I tutor logic, the students know they have deficiencies or that they have something to learn, so they don’t challenge me on it. Here, people don’t always know what constitutes sound logic but they challenge me on it anyway.

It gets frustrating.

A perfect example is what MaxPowers said. “Get some friends ILR or get some hobbies.” There are just so many things wrong with that. I would never say that to anyone, because A) It is an absurd assumption, B) the other person cannot disprove it nor can anyone prove it and C) It has nothing to do with anything being discussed.

When someone says something like that, he is basically saying, “I have no rebuttal to what you said, either because I am too lazy to come up with one, not smart enough to come up with one, or I just don’t care.”

Well, why not just SAY one of those instead of making an assumption that is phrased as an insult?
 
Fjones.

Lets say for example that there are a lot of people who agree with you and that the lounge needs something drastic to happen to it to make it some sort of habitable place for all bluelighters and not just those it currently attracts.

How do you suggest that things should be done in order to achieve the desired result?

Imagine for a moment that you are suddenly turned into the lounge super mod and its your job to turn it into something worthwhile.

What are you going to do?

How are you going to achieve it?
 
People are just being assholes because they can be, I've noticed this in alot of people I know IRL. It's much funner being an asshole than a nice guy. It's also impossible to detect things such as "sarcasm" or an "I was just joking" attitude via text, such as in a forum (Unless you put :p or something similar to that at the end of the phrase).
 
...there is no winning. They will keep their stupid lounge...
And you will continue to love going there.






Proposal: creation of a new "safe" Lounge subforum called The Comfy Chair and moderated by guess who. ;)
 
I have more friends "IRL" than most, and far more hobbies than most. I could easily crush you at many of the numerous hobbies I enjoy.

Why am I bothering to debate analogies with people here? I TEACH S.A.T. classes, which used to have analogies on them. I know how analogies work. The general public, sadly, has little understanding of them, which is why I was able to make good money teaching them.

Look, the simple fact is, I am smarter than most people.

Does anyone else sense a pattern here? 8)

A perfect example is what MaxPowers said. “Get some friends ILR or get some hobbies.” There are just so many things wrong with that. I would never say that to anyone, because A) It is an absurd assumption, B) the other person cannot disprove it nor can anyone prove it and C) It has nothing to do with anything being discussed.

When someone says something like that, he is basically saying, “I have no rebuttal to what you said, either because I am too lazy to come up with one, not smart enough to come up with one, or I just don’t care.”

Well, why not just SAY one of those instead of making an assumption that is phrased as an insult?

I said what I meant and I meant what I said.

It seems you are a high strung individual who enjoys arguing.

The more time you spend away from bluelight, the smaller all these "lounge" problems become.
 
Look, the simple fact is, I am smarter than most people.
Yet not smart enough to not click on the lounge and stop reading it.
Yet not smart enough to understand simple logic.

Maxpowers said:
It seems you are a high strung individual who enjoys arguing.
x2 .
I could add to the reason as to why he is like that then again Fjones will see it as a personal attack or something else and go off rambling for 50 pages again.
 
And if you object to murder and child molestation, just look in a different direction?

My post was about a foum that has run amok and isn't esepcially valuable to this site, and your answer is to "read a different forum." ok.
It works 100% of the time for me.

And for the Extra - Sensitive Viewer, you can also place the thoughtless buffoons and Lounge reprobates on "Ignore".

^^All that info and I don't even work at "Support" forum.

Will
 
well honestly i really didnt read any of these posts but my opinion is that we are all (approx 100.000 registered users on this site) are all drug addicts and we need a place to bullshit, have fun, flame, bitch, post nonsense stuff, nudies, memes etc imo lounge is necessary
 
If I want to laugh, I go to the Lounge
If I'm sad and want to complain, I go to TDS
If I want to hurt my brain, I go to P&S
If I want to put my 2 cents in on a variety of subjects, I go to SO

If I don't want to see any of it, I just don't go to BL.
If I don't like something being said to me, I click on the next thread.

Forums are what you make of them. There aren't victims on forums, only volunteers.
 
bluelight is a community and, as expected, has a set of both formal and informal community standards. in the same way that most people ease into a real life community - a new school or a new job - so most people would generally ease into an online community.

if you (in the more general sense) have been a new member of an online community for 5 minutes and start telling everybody how things should be, you might reasonably expect some pushback. even if you're simply a new member who chooses to participate in the lounge early in their bluelight life, as with any community, there's a lot to be learned by lurking on the sidelines to get a feel for the community standards.

i can't speak for them but i don't believe for one second that the staff feel there is nothing they can do to change the negative aspects of the lounge.

i do echo lysis in that people have much more control over their own lounge experience than some can or do admit.

alasdair
 
I have a bad habit of reacting to the things people say when they are best left ignored.
Ain't that the truth!


So really, you just chose poor words. Instead of saying, "It you don't like it, change the channel," you could have said, "Yeah the lounge has problems but they aren't important enough to bother with so who cares?"
You know for someone who claims to be so smart you would think that you would be able to decipher what he said as it appears you just did (congratulations). Please realize that dialogue doesn't always have to be an argument. If I walked up to my friend and asked "Hey bro, whassup?!" and he said "The sky you idiot" I can guarantee that we wouldn't be friends for very long.
Also, for what it's worth, my threads and posts do seem to generate a lot of discussion. I'd rather be controversial than boring. If so many people don't like me why do they waste their energy responding to my posts?
FWIW you're the leading poster in here with 19 posts followed by Enki with 5. Maybe you should start posting in the talk to yourself thread.

Fjones, maybe you should reigster under a new handle: Reductio ad absurdum.
 
A) not smart enough to understand them or
B) is smart enough but has chosen not to

You forgot C) Has never been taught the rules of logic

What you believe to be inherent is, in fact, not. There are many aspects of our society wherein logic is not only flawed, but irrelevant. Many people are never taught the algebraic forms of logical relationships and therefore can not be expected to follow the minutiae of the rules.

Also, you want to prove that others are illogical, yet you fail to address my concerns over your ill-use of logic. By making an argument ad absurdum, you do not show your analogy to be valid. You show it to be dismissible.

My question of your participation in the funding of this site was too limited. I should have asked what you contribute to the site as a whole. Have you helped in any person's harm reduction? Have you donated knowledge about chemical combinations or drug action? Have you talked down people on the verge of suicide? Have you donated your time to aid in the operations of this site? Or have you been screaming at the top of your lungs for someone to pay attention to you?

I'm paying attention to you. Does this make you happier? Or am I too stupid to understand your fancy book learnin? There is nothing here that anyone can say to make you happier.

fjones said:
I cannot "be the change" in the lounge. They don't like me in the lounge. my best bet is to avoid the lounge, which I do, except for the picture threads and some polls.

If this is the case, then why is it your concern? PillThrill's complaint about the picture thread being mean is irrelevant because the comments to which she referred were dealt with. This is not a panopticon. We as a staff cannot maintain an ever present vigil over every post. Sometimes things slip through and may be visible for a couple of hours before a staff member can read it and take action.
 
Fjones.

Lets say for example that there are a lot of people who agree with you and that the lounge needs something drastic to happen to it to make it some sort of habitable place for all bluelighters and not just those it currently attracts.

How do you suggest that things should be done in order to achieve the desired result?

Imagine for a moment that you are suddenly turned into the lounge super mod and its your job to turn it into something worthwhile.

What are you going to do?

How are you going to achieve it?

I would encourage pleasant interaction. I would discourage trolling. I don't know when trolling became something to be proud of, the the top trollers here were really proud of themselves and would pat each other on the back.

I would discourage bullying and flame wars.

I would delete posts that just mock or insult other posters.

I would get rid of this "It's just the lounge" attitude and actually start enforcing the rules.

The nudie thread, the pets picture thread, the other picture threads, the entertaining threads where people play lounge games that string from one post to the next, the of-topic questions like what to do about an up toilet seat -- those are all valuable to the site. They are light and fun and interesting. They would just as much so if the standard rules of BL applied. You don't lose anything from those threads by enforcing the rules that people cannot treat others like shit.

Also, I feel like I repeat myself here a lot. I already acknowledged that I can just avoid the lounge. I know that. Why do people point that out as though it is an idea i have not thought of? For the most part, I do avoid the lounge, though some of the subscribed threads in my User CP ARE in the lounge, and I reply from time to time.

That isn't the point though. If the lounge has negative consequences across other places on the site, I would like to offer input and suggestions to improve it. That is why I don't just "change the channel," as That Guy suggested.
 
You forgot C) Has never been taught the rules of logic

What you believe to be inherent is, in fact, not. There are many aspects of our society wherein logic is not only flawed, but irrelevant. Many people are never taught the algebraic forms of logical relationships and therefore can not be expected to follow the minutiae of the rules.


That isn't my fault. Look, I would love to open a forum just for the purpose of grammar and logic and word usage. But no one would care, and I would be ridiculed. Yes, many people were never taught proper logic and argument form, but most of them prefer to keep it that way. They don't want to have to bother. Even when I point it out in passing (unless it is the et peeves thread), no on appreciates it. Essentially, what happens is, people reject any attempt to improve the way they form statements and arguments, then when they use their flawed methods, you are saying they should be excused because they were never taught the right methods.

That makes it hard to have a logical discussion. And if a discussion is not logical, it is emotional, which doesn't go far, because then you have discussions like this --

"Drugs should be legal because __________ (fill in the blank with a cogent logical argument)"

"Are you crazy? My 3rd cousin overdosed on heroin. I hate drugs! You monster"

etc.




Also, you want to prove that others are illogical, yet you fail to address my concerns over your ill-use of logic. By making an argument ad absurdum, you do not show your analogy to be valid. You show it to be dismissible.

I disagree that I made an argument ad absurdum. When someone says, "If you have a problem with _____ the solution is to ignore it,"

all I have to do to logically counter that is to show a counter example where that strategy does not make sense. That is what I did. The counter example in that case will often be of a more extreme nature than the original.


My question of your participation in the funding of this site was too limited. I should have asked what you contribute to the site as a whole. Have you helped in any person's harm reduction? Have you donated knowledge about chemical combinations or drug action? Have you talked down people on the verge of suicide? Have you donated your time to aid in the operations of this site? Or have you been screaming at the top of your lungs for someone to pay attention to you?

Yes, I have helped in harm reduction. I have 2000 posts! Do you think all of them are lounge complaints or pet peeves? I post in TDS a lot, trying to help others who are struggling. I offer advice there constantly. I created a thread to help people play poker (one of those hobbies I don't have, according to max powers), and I have received praise for that. Lost of people have thanks me for many contributions to this site. I offer helpful tips in Ecstasy discussion when it is apparent that a noob doesn't know what he is talking about and might hurt himself. I have donated knowledge about drug combinations and drug action. I have spoken to suicidal people, publicly and in private messages, and helped them deal.

I generated some interesting discussion topics in the sports forum. And many people enjoy my postings in the pet Peeves column. I have also received compliments from people in threads and in PMs for my contributions in different areas.

So, yes, I do contribute, quite a lot.



I'm paying attention to you. Does this make you happier? Or am I too stupid to understand your fancy book learnin? There is nothing here that anyone can say to make you happier.

I don't want you to pay attention to me. I want you to be logical and reasonable with me. That is all I want with anyone.


If this is the case, then why is it your concern? PillThrill's complaint about the picture thread being mean is irrelevant because the comments to which she referred were dealt with. This is not a panopticon. We as a staff cannot maintain an ever present vigil over every post. Sometimes things slip through and may be visible for a couple of hours before a staff member can read it and take action.


Good. I am glad to hear it.
 
I would encourage pleasant interaction. I would discourage trolling...

I would discourage bullying and flame wars.

...

I would get rid of this "It's just the lounge" attitude...
these are "whats" not "hows". how would you do those things?

If the lounge has negative consequences across other places on the site...
i note you phrased this conditionally but i'm interested in any analysis of how the lounge has negative consequences across other places on the site. i definitely see loungespeak spill out once in a while but it's normally met with a swift "this is not the lounge". what do you think?

alasdair
 
these are "whats" not "hows". how would you do those things?

i note you phrased this conditionally but i'm interested in any analysis of how the lounge has negative consequences across other places on the site. i definitely see loungespeak spill out once in a while but it's normally met with a swift "this is not the lounge". what do you think?

alasdair

Everyone keeps asking me "How." I am confused. Am I being invited to be an administrator?

I would have to sit down and THINK for awhile to come up with some "how"s. If I were an admin, I would do exactly that, but I am not, nor will I be, as I am not suited to the task and it would be insane to ever put me on staff.

So, my best chance to influence policy is as a regular bluelighter. The problem is, I don't feel confident that people really care what I have to say, so why should I bother?

I'll give it a quick try though off the top of my head.

Here are some "how"s --

1) Get rid of the "This is the lounge" mentality. So what? Apply the same rules from other forums. If someone is violating a rule, he is violating a rule.

If someone sees a funny thread in the lounge, he should be able to participate without having to worry about being flamed or trolled.

Another how -- stronger consequences. This will deter the undesirable behavior.

Anyway, I could come up with more, but again, why? People seem to think the lounge is okay and that those who dislike it should just avoid it.


As for the last part of your post, the nastiness toward pillthrill spills out all over the place. People have hassled me in other forums. And it just creates bad feelings between members of the same site, which can lead to tension and problems. The Lounge almost seems like a different site. I don't get it.

Also, I am going to vomit if one more person says "chill man, it's the internet" or some shit like that. (This is not directed at you alasdair)

Look, either we care about the site or we don't. But please don't just selectively throw out phrases like "it's the internet, chill out," implying that there is some reduced level of importance in internet dealings. Many users, moderators and administrators spend a lot of time and effort on this site. So, people obviously care. The people who claim they don't care and that I care too much still take the time to argue with me or needle me about something.

We all care, some of us just want to pretend they don't because they think it's cool to put someone down by implying that he spends too much time on the internet. People used similar insults in elementary school. I had hoped people would grow out of it at some point.
 
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