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Cultures of Honor -- your thoughts?

MyDoorsAreOpen

MyDoorsAreOpen

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Yesterday I read Wikipedia's article on culture of honor, and this really tied together a whole lot of scattered thoughts and memories I've been having over the past few years.

A culture of honor (CoH) is a society in which rule of law is weak or frowned upon, and the benefits of directly violating others outweigh the risks. Therefore, men take it upon themselves to defend what's theirs, and will retaliate brutally against anyone who tries to violate him or his property.

There may be relatively little actual violence in a culture of honor, simply because everyone is scared of everyone else. Looking weak is the number one thing to avoid in a CoH -- One looks weak by failing to respond to even the slightest insult. A CoH often has elaborate protocols for ensuring no accidental offenses or insults happen. In cultures of law, people gain respect by projecting an image of trustworthiness. In cultures of honor, people gain respect by project an image of 'don't fuck with me'.

I've had a perverse fascination with cultures of honor for some time now. I love a good mafia or Wild West film, or a medieval Chinese knight-errant story, as featured in a lot of kung fu movies. My fascination, though, is based on the fact that I am completely and totally NOT CUT OUT to survive in a CoH! I'm a staunch pacifist. I think having to come off to the world as 'hard' is an unnecessary burden. I hate when other men decide they're better than me, just because I'm not quick with a comeback. I think the whole point of society is to create a place where people shouldn't have to spend every minute on guard, watching their backs, so that they have time and mental energy to devote to higher pursuits. I actively work to make society more of that kind of place. Yeah, I'm an idealist -- be the change you want to see, and all that.

This is especially pertinent to me as a drug user. I've posted many times that I hate dealers; if it were up to me, I'd manufacture everything I chose to put in my brain (and not tell a soul). The reason, I see now, is because I don't want to find myself in a de facto culture of honor just because I enjoy drugs. I accept now that as long as drugs are illegal, I couldn't SELL them without being ready to violently defend myself. But as a simple user who happens to be male, I don't appreciate being sized up, tested, subtly threatened, or conned, just because I come off as a law-abiding citizen who ISN'T ready to bring the violence. I don't typically like giving monetary support to people and their ways that I don't support.

I digress.

What do you all think about the whole Culture of Honor thing? Is it the default state of [male] human relations -- our past and our likely future? In this case, do you feel it behooves any and all adult males to be able, if need be, to survive and defend their property under such a culture? Or is the Culture of Honor something we're evolving away from as a species, in favor of other systems that allow men to channel their testosterone-fueled whims into more constructive pursuits?

What gets me most about this topic, though, is how little it's discussed, relative to how real and relevant it is. I hear strong undertones of Libertarian/Survivalist leanings here on BL, and the Stop Snitching Movement seems pretty well supported here.
 
I esteem cultures of honor when they are in a fantasy realm, like Klingons in Star Trek:Next Generation. As an adolescent I liked Billy Jack (admitted with great embarrassment) but he was a lone advocate for CoH. Die Hard, Dirty Harry and the like are worn out for me but I fully understand their appeal. They were rebels for CoH. I am not a rigid law person, but instead a hopeless relativist. I do feel relief at times however when someone has chosen to be the decider. I suspect every relativist has some unspoken reverence for people who perceive social reality as a decided fact. Were I in a CoH I doubt I could convene some kind of synod to refine our social agreements and a right to dissent.

MDAO said:
Is it the default state of [male] human relations -- our past and our likely future?
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I think testosterone is a non-discountable factor in this cultural phenomena. I don't think testosterone an insurmountable obstacle in finding better ways. Intellectually I abhor violence and territoriality but when my more powerful computer is done encoding some video pretty soon here, I'll be thoroughly enjoying a first person shooter. I think testosterone if given its outlets can be sublimated to other ends.

Sorry I'm even more all over the place with this topic than usual. Its one of those very basic societal underpinnings that we do not examine very often. I'd like to see anthropologists and socio-biologists in this thread along with people who have been in prison or gangs.
 
I grew up in a society (Jordanian) in which cultures of honour (Bedoines all Jordanian) clash with that of Law (city-dwellers, mostly Palestinians).

Crimes of honour is a big social issue there, and one that I take a firm clear stance on: take your backwards assholery and shove it up yours.

While I myself have conceptions of honour and practise them regularly (especially having to do with guests and hospitality), I certainly cannot see how your misogyny gives you the right to take another's life.

I will write more once I get back home from work :)
 
As a Middle-Easterner, I am big on Honour, and would easily kill or be killed for it. it is diffiuclt to explain to Westerners but there is nothing at all romantic about it, as what seems to be the perception of the OP. It is just how life evolved in a harsh environment. in the desert, if smeone drinks from your well they ar eliterally taking life from you and yours. You must kill or the next time your well will be drained dry and your women taken. One violation, requires immediate justice.

As Jews we have evolved from a very harsh way of life. Anyone wanting to know how life was, simply read amalek in the Old Testament. We exterminated even their livestock. Just how it was. Today Jews live a more "civlised" way of life but the sense of honour still holds true.
 
I think if u were brought up in a culture like that you would survive there.

If drugs will be kept illegal I think soon we will have a drug lord controlled CoH. People want drugs, will always want them just like sex. Make that illegal and there u have a problem. Maybe it's a way to destroy our democracy. Dunno.
 
rachamim said:
As a Middle-Easterner, I am big on Honour, and would easily kill or be killed for it. it is diffiuclt to explain to Westerners but there is nothing at all romantic about it, as what seems to be the perception of the OP. It is just how life evolved in a harsh environment. in the desert, if smeone drinks from your well they ar eliterally taking life from you and yours. You must kill or the next time your well will be drained dry and your women taken. One violation, requires immediate justice.

As Jews we have evolved from a very harsh way of life. Anyone wanting to know how life was, simply read amalek in the Old Testament. We exterminated even their livestock. Just how it was. Today Jews live a more "civlised" way of life but the sense of honour still holds true.
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This post offers me much insight into the middle-eastern worldview, and perhaps into the source of so much animosity in that part of the world. I always enjoy reading your posts rachamim, because while I don't agree with many of your views, you always present them in a fair and informative manner.

I must ask, though, do you think its a wise world-view to continue to perpetuate? Especially considering the world we live in today is much less suited to violence, and we have much greater resources available to us that render fighting unnecessary. Wouldn't it be better to adopt a worldview of "Now that our wells have plenty of water, can we not sit and have a drink together?" I respect the origins of your faith, and the hardships your people had to endure, but perhaps the "kill and be killed" days should be filed away as ancient history. Maybe that would be a better way to live life..

I only mention this because having been an aggressive person earlier in my life, I find it infinitely more fulfilling to live a more peaceful life.
 
MyDoorsAreOpen said:
What do you all think about the whole Culture of Honor thing? Is it the default state of [male] human relations -- our past and our likely future? In this case, do you feel it behooves any and all adult males to be able, if need be, to survive and defend their property under such a culture? Or is the Culture of Honor something we're evolving away from as a species, in favor of other systems that allow men to channel their testosterone-fueled whims into more constructive pursuits?
Click to expand...

Hmm, really liked the post... Maybe a CoH is less complex. Does that mean it's necessarily more stable? They're different...

Do we have enough history behind us to firmly say? Culture is hugely nonlinear. Maybe the answer to the question depends so sensitively on the input that there's no satisfying generalisation.
 
Roger&Me said:
This post offers me much insight into the middle-eastern worldview, and perhaps into the source of so much animosity in that part of the world. I always enjoy reading your posts rachamim, because while I don't agree with many of your views, you always present them in a fair and informative manner.

I must ask, though, do you think its a wise world-view to continue to perpetuate? Especially considering the world we live in today is much less suited to violence, and we have much greater resources available to us that render fighting unnecessary. Wouldn't it be better to adopt a worldview of "Now that our wells have plenty of water, can we not sit and have a drink together?" I respect the origins of your faith, and the hardships your people had to endure, but perhaps the "kill and be killed" days should be filed away as ancient history. Maybe that would be a better way to live life..

I only mention this because having been an aggressive person earlier in my life, I find it infinitely more fulfilling to live a more peaceful life.
Click to expand...

His world view, while accurate, does not represent that of the whole middle-east. The notions of honour themselves are universal, what is done with them is not. While rachamim and other jews may immediately think of killing people in retribution, my palestinian family and I prefer to deal with things in more peaceful ways - even though we share the same framework of honour.
 
So in other words Jam, you feel an obligation to respond in kind, in some way, if someone does you wrong, but that does not translate into physical violence or property destruction. That I can relate to.

Papa, I think you're onto something. I think a CoH might be what cultures SETTLE AT when resources are very lean and central authority is lacking. Compare mammalian metabolisms, which settle at ketone body synthesis (ketosis) in starving times to save energy. They're very much selected against, though, in times of plenty and of competent central authority.

From reading about their history, it would seem the prevalence of a CoH waxed and waned drastically between dynasties in China, depending on how unified or fragmented central rule was, how rich or lean the economy was, and how just or corrupt the ruling class was in meting out punishment. You see it very strongly in the literature of the so called Spring and Autumn Period.

I think a CoH is really not economical to maintain, except in the most desperate of times. Men who can take it for granted that they can trust one another, who do not have to expend energy and resources to ensure they hide all possible vulnerabilities, can cooperate better and stimulate economic dynamism (at the very least), and collaborate to solve problems that plague the greater community (at the very most).

Yes, there need to be social protocols for showing others one's trustworthiness and goodwill. This is like saying living things need water. I'm not arguing against that. Nor am I arguing that there ought not to be penalties paid by people who fail to follow these protocols.* But I think everyone pooling their resources to invest in a central enforcing authority that everyone submits to, frees up a lot of power, both brawn and brains, and saves people having to invest large amounts of money on useless things, whose only purpose is to make the owner look rich.\

* Note that the way I phrase this is neutral on the issue of, and open to the possibility of, people who make a deliberate choice to break a social protocol and pay the penalty, whereby it becomes a tax for them rather than a penalty. I am willing, for example, to give up the possibility of friendship with people who look down their noses at the unfashionable. I am not willing, however, to abide the stigma of being a fully open drug user.
 
^ Yes, at the core of it, it is the intent and feeling that matters, not the end result (IMO about the latter). If someone from the middle-east offends me in some way that is KNOWN in the middle-east to offend (such as denigrating my mother, for example), I will assume it is his intent to offend me. I wouldn't kill him (nor would anyone in my family do so), but he will most likely be ostracized and shunned. Or with the more violent people I know, he might get beaten up. But killing is pretty unheard-of in my family, which is one of the more urbanized large families from Hebron (and so Rachamim's extreme desert conditions no longer apply - culture ought to evolve).

But, and here I speak only for myself and my family, if someone NOT from the mid-east were to do the same, I would think twice before getting too offended. In fact, I might even find it funny (Yo Momma jokes). It is not (or at least, should not be) expected of an outsider to conform to this culture of honour.

But killing (or retribution) is simply one facet of such cultures. For example, one part of my upbringing that I hold on to and try to improve as much as I can is hospitality. I actually feel honoured if someone decides to visit me, and may in fact feel a bit dishonoured if an invitation is declined without good reason.

This whole honour thing is pretty deep rooted. Even on BL, some of my outbursts are a result of this, when I am not keeping myself well enough in check to avoid them. They mostly have to do with camaraderie and trust (and breach thereof).
 
Roger: Thank you of course for the kind words. As for how wise it is to retain and perpetuate this worldview...Well, it is unwise to discard it while others retain it. It sounds like a "Chicken and Egg" mindfuc% but there is no really simple answer.

Do you know the Israeli PM who time after time got the highest ratings FROM "Palestinians" and Arabs of outher backgrounds? Ariel sharon!

They are dismissive by and large of any kind of moderartion and to show a willingness to moderate makes one extremely vulnerable.

"A better view perhaps of, 'Now that our wells are full, let us drink together'?": I often read Arabic poetry. In searching for antiquated translations from Farsi into Arabic, of Runi, i came across a site offeing in Arabic some pre-Islamic poetry just yesterday.

Interestingly many of the poems, not suprisingly are martial in nature and one was bearating various tribes and said "They let anyone drink from their wells!" Invariably, if one seeks permissionfirst by asking for asylum Bedua (Bedouin) will give you the shirt off their backs (sometimes literally) for 3 days. If you do not ask, or not able to ask, you will be killed if they can.

These are harsh views buut they come form harsh environments. In the Empty Quarter (huge expanse of desert in modern day Saudi Arabia), allowing anyone to take your minimalassets leaves you and yours extremely vulnerable. Knowing a hrsh response will not be forthcoming, most would keep taking advantage. This is a normal facet of human nature.

Personally I wish for peace in every way. I hate violence, but I recognise its utility, its intrinsic value if controlled and used in a very trained and restrained way.

Jamshyd's metholody/attitude is admirable but he grew up in Canada where such an atttude is entirely possible. Had he grown up say in Gaza City, or in Ramallah it woul most likely be entirely different. Enviornment is crucial I think.

Where I lie now is one of those places where the rule of law is non-existent. If a family somes and stakes a claim on my land who do I turn to? The police? Where are they? I must deal with it myself or have soemone deal with it for me, so it all depends (i believe) on where one is).

Jam: I did not know your family was from Hebron. Like me. Hebron is not the desert, but the concept is the same. My ancestral home is on Worshippers Way, and my clan is Dwek (Dweck, Dweick, and so on). We have a large Arab faction in my clan by virtue of conversion about 800 years ago to Islam.

For Arabs the desert nomad is held as the absolute ideal. Many urbanised Arabs have tents on their property and virtually all have mourning tents when a loved one dies, so it is not that far removed from the original context.

Personally I could not care less if a person insults my mum (who is long dead), unless I must face the person frequently, or he is known where I live . Then I have no choice but to neutralise any threat.
 
^ Ah rachamim, we surely did talk about the Hebron thing in PM! That's how we started out as friends! Though, Dweik? wow, I never knew about that... I was unaware that they are originally jewish. My father knows many from the house Dweik.
 
^ Ah rachamim, we surely did talk about the Hebron thing in PM! That's how we started out as friends! Though, Dweik? wow, I never knew about that... I was unaware that they are originally jewish. My father knows many from the house Dweik.
 
Jam: Dweik are my clansmen! they broke off about 9 centuries back but to us it is yesterday and we still hate them for it haha (quite true especially since they never raised their voice to get us back our stolen properties after 29). My dad changed his surname from Dwek to Ben Ami as did several clansmen after 48 when they had fought in the war. We are huge in NYC, Montreal, London, and of course in Israel now. Still have the branch in Damsacus even now!

I guess you did tell me of Hebron but I forgot, go figure. I would think I would not forget that but i am in middle age after all.
 
Link to the first article on that blog roster, the one in front right when it opens with the same title as in the link "Moneyinnewyorkthesyempire"

It is a scandal sheet that tries to dredge up all the Jewish gossip in NY, and the "Edict" they talk about only applies to those of us who opt to live in the States, as I never really did of course, I am not "disowned" and in fact, we have a synagouge her ein Makati (right outside of Manila) in the Salcedo Village area, and my own clan funded half of it.

We are the Jews who own all the electronics stores in NY, LA, Montreal, Vancouver and so on. Crazy Eddy was from our community but not my clansman. My clan is the one that owns the Empire, funded the WTC buildings, and so on.

When I look at the article though my heart skips a beat seeing all my family's homes there, remembering Jewishness and of course here I am 1 of 2 Jews on the entire island of Mindanao and the other guy high tailed it off when Gaza began and we got threats.

Anyway Dweks are all over the world.
 
It seems to me that COH breed entirely too much aggression and thus can never be truly successful.
 
It seems there would be two types of cultures of honor, produced by weak or absent authority as talked about and produced by having an authority that is despised or not trusted. Drug culture, prison culture, and the culture of an occupied nation or enslaved people is going to be different from Bedouins, frontiersman, and herdsman I think. They both have importance on good name, honor and shame to some extent.

The people with a despised authority have a clear path to honor- take on or trick the enemy. The worst shame is usually going to be collaboration or accommodation. A culture that is in isolation with weak authority might have honor or shame that is more directly about the individual relating to the community. I'm just speculating, no experience with cowboys or like folk.
 
^ Not in the last post, but Klingons are a fictional representation of a CoH in imo as I said in earlier post.
 
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