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Do the rich steal from the poor? Capitalism


Capitalism is an archaic system, end of argument.

. . . unfortunately too many people are unwilling to change.

Are too many people "unwilling to change," or are some people so closed-minded that they state their own personal opinion in five words, and then follow up with the oh-so-mature, "end of argument?"
 
Money beyond a certain point is in fact simply a tool of control.

So effectively the rich are stealing the illusion of control ( sometime reality) from the poor

capital = freedom
debt = slavery

any monetary object (real or virtual) is just a neatural tool. its the use that can make it a great tool (oportunity,growth) or an evil one (control)
 
Are you saying that's a bad idea? Why? The rich can afford to pay more because even if they make a little less, they're still way more than fine to survive comfortably, and society ends up reaping more benefit as a whole from that person because we're getting a larger percentage of large amounts of money. The poor have a hard time just keeping afloat in society as is. :\

Let's say you just earned a promotion at your job. To celebrate, you decide to go to your favorite sandwich shop to order a turkey sandwich.
"One turkey sandwich, please."
"Sure. That will be $8.00."
"What? $8.00? I ate here last week and it was $5.00. Have your prices gone up?"
"No, our prices are the same. You see, we have this special progressive pricing menu. Here's how it works. If you make X amount of dollars a year, then the sandwich costs $3.00. If you make Y, then it costs $5.00. And if you make Z, it cost $8.00. Because you just got a raise at your job, that bumbed you up to a higher menu bracket. From Y to Z. So that's why it was $5 last week and $8."
"So does the sandwich cost you any more to produce than it did last week?"
"No, you're just making more money now so we feel that you can afford to pay more for the same sandwich."
All this talking has made the people behind you in line a bit annoyed.
"Hey buddy!" one irrate customer yells "Hurry up. I'm trying to get a couple turkey sandwiches."
"That will be $6.00"
"Wait a minute." you say "So that guy gets two turkey sandwiches for less than what I have to pay for one?"
"That's right"
"Well, what if he had no job at all?"
"He would get the sandwich for free"

etc, etc, etc...
 
For every man and woman who succeded in the American dream, making it big and getting rich and SHIT, how many others failed? how many others were trampled on the way to the top? How many people were exploited by the successful American Dreamers?

Your right it is the land of opportunity. Very few people have a good chance at realizing the opportunity and even fewer will actually succeed, but many people will try, and they will work their asses off while the fat cat capitalists reap the rewards, while people work for an illusion.

How many non-drinking, non-drug using people who did not get knocked up at an early age can you think of that worked their asses off only to be trampled on their way to the top?
 
the looting of the net worth of the united states is happening as we speak. the "bailouts" and surge of white collar crimes... along with all these references to the great depression, and our way of life getting worse than its current state. the ignoring of the constitution, et cetera... these are all signs.

something heavy is going to happen. there is not enough of the american dream to go around for each citizen...

there are no robin hoods that will save us.
 
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Are you saying that's a bad idea? Why? The rich can afford to pay more because even if they make a little less, they're still way more than fine to survive comfortably, and society ends up reaping more benefit as a whole from that person because we're getting a larger percentage of large amounts of money. The poor have a hard time just keeping afloat in society as is. :\

Let's say you just earned a promotion at your job. To celebrate, you decide to go to your favorite sandwich shop to order a turkey sandwich.
"One turkey sandwich, please."
"Sure. That will be $8.00."
"What? $8.00? I ate here last week and it was $5.00. Have your prices gone up?"
"No, our prices are the same. You see, we have this special progressive pricing menu. Here's how it works. If you make X amount of dollars a year, then the sandwich costs $3.00. If you make Y, then it costs $5.00. And if you make Z, it cost $8.00. Because you just got a raise at your job, that bumbed you up to a higher menu bracket. From Y to Z. So that's why it was $5 last week and $8."
"So does the sandwich cost you any more to produce than it did last week?"
"No, you're just making more money now so we feel that you can afford to pay more for the same sandwich."
All this talking has made the people behind you in line a bit annoyed.
"Hey buddy!" one irrate customer yells "Hurry up. I'm trying to get a couple turkey sandwiches."
"That will be $6.00"
"Wait a minute." you say "So that guy gets two turkey sandwiches for less than what I have to pay for one?"
"That's right"
"Well, what if he had no job at all?"
"He would get the sandwich for free"

etc, etc, etc...

Your example does not counter my statement because I'm talking about taxing the wealthy to contribute to the good of society, because they can afford to pay more. Your sandwich example would be unfair because charging someone more for a sandwich because they make more doesn't result in a greater contribution to society. Our society is what allowed the rich to get rich in the first place, anyway, so why shouldn't they give back to it? The comparitively small amount of money that the poor are giving in taxes has a much greater detrimental effect on their ability to sustain their life than the comparitively larger amount does for the rich.

How many non-drinking, non-drug using people who did not get knocked up at an early age can you think of that worked their asses off only to be trampled on their way to the top?

A lot. Where do you come from? This happens all over. The fact is that the vast majority of people do not make it anywhere near the top, despite trying hard their whole lives. It can have to do with drugs and early pregnancy, but it often does not.

Again, not all poor people are lazy, drug-addicted losers. Our system is set up in such a way as to create a very small minority of super-rich and a vast majority of poor who fuel the wealth of the super-rich. There isn't enough money for everyone to be super-rich, so it won't ever happen. If we could spread the wealth of the super-rich around, they could still be plenty rich, but we could also allow everyone who works hard and adds value to society to have enough money to live comfortably and not have to spend every waking moment on the edge of survival.

Our current system allows giants like Wal-Mart to pay their employees disgustingly little and provide no benefits at all, and then actually suggest to their employees to take welfare, which drains our taxpayer money which could be spent on the betterment of our country instead, all so some high-ranking executives can make $200 million per year instead of $100 million, when $100 million is still tremendously more than enough for a person to have whatever they could possibly want. (Numbers made up to show a point)
 
He'll be telling us there's no Santa Claus next 8):p;)


There's dozens of them ;)


I dunno Robin Hood seems like just the guy. He's outside the system -admittedly outside this timeframe as well but hey there is no such thing as time . He kinda rejected the system & that would perhaps be something to consider.


RH is an ideal whom some ( that really means me) would consider worth aspiring to :)
 
what am i supposed to do about this though? i just get angry, so angry i could KILL. i hate the system -dont we all- which rapes us like little sheep and seems to have no end in sight, no weak point. will we leave it up to our children, who will have to organize into a full rebel underground type thing to even get their basic rights back? this is a disturbing, very Philipkdick type of society we're entering. very disturbing. wtf will we do?
 
Your example does not counter my statement because I'm talking about taxing the wealthy to contribute to the good of society, because they can afford to pay more. Your sandwich example would be unfair because charging someone more for a sandwich because they make more doesn't result in a greater contribution to society. Our society is what allowed the rich to get rich in the first place, anyway, so why shouldn't they give back to it? The comparitively small amount of money that the poor are giving in taxes has a much greater detrimental effect on their ability to sustain their life than the comparitively larger amount does for the rich.

First of all, the poor aren't giving "a comparitively small amount of money" in taxes. The poor pay no tax. None. Something like 40% of the population pays zero federal income tax.
Under Obama's proposed tax plan, we will soon have over half the working population zero taxes. And those people will still have the power to vote themselves more lollipops.

Secondly, you say...
Our society is what allowed the rich to get rich in the first place, anyway, so why shouldn't they give back to it?

Because the rich have already given back to society. They gave back in the form of good and services.

Third, the sandwhich analogy applies. You talk about government taxing the rich for the good of society. But social security checks and the like aren't written out to Society. They are written out to individuals.
Perhaps I'm a callous bastard but when I see someone paying for their groceries with food stamps, I fail to see how I (a card carrying member of "society") have benefitted in any way. I see how that individual has benefitted but not me. I guess they have more money to feed some kid who is probably being their grandparent anyway.
So let them eat cake. That's what I say. So long as that cake was not purchased with food stamps.

But if you get things that truely benefit society unambiguously and unmetaphorically; infrastructure, highways, national parks, and etc, the sandwhich analogy applies even more. When Bill Gates drives down the interstate, he actually contributed more money for that highway than the Pinto in the next lane over. He is well and truely paying more money for the same thing as another person.

People have this idea of the rich as just hording money. Like they are Scrooge McDuck pushing huge mounds of cash around their vault in a huge bulldozer with their initials emblazened on it in gold and diamonds.
The reality is that their net worth is mostly tied up in stocks, property, and businesses. It's being put to use in the economy. One could say they benefit society just by being rich.
Bill Gates has a net worth 58 billion. However, this is deceptive as most of his wealth is in the form Microsoft stock.. If I were to one day decide to buy a 58 dollar book of matches, he couldn't do it. Cause if he tried to start selling off his Microsoft shares, it would cause the price to crash which would cause other stockholder to panic and sell off their shares, and by the time he was done, it would be almost worthless. He would only end up getting a fraction of what its original worth.

Final thought: no one has ever been given a job by a bum.
 
That's a very good point. People hate on lawyers, businessmen, etc. so much, but a lot of them are just trying to "do" something, to make a difference anyway.
 
money

I seriously think the whole notion of money is as Pink Floyd said, the "root of all evil" . Well, of course there would undoubtedly be evil no matter what, men being the unreliable selfish scoundrels that they invariably have a tendency to be... it seems at one time we had everyuthing we needed to get along.. plentiful land, resources, forests, fish, fowl, jungle, beaches, etc etc etc. Some clever fellow who was stronger or quicker or just more evil decided he would stake out a claim and make something all "HIS". Thus, private property was born. Now, you had to do what "HE" wanted to get some of what he said was all "HIS". "UG OGG not want give YOU any! Ogg not LIKE you! YOU PAY Ogg now - with interest!" Ogg got even more hungry for power and land and food and resources and women and stuff. So.. there we have it.. he figured what the hell.. I'm bad.. I can do pretty much whatever I please. Screw everybody else.

There is not ONE person that has EVER been "self" made. EVER. Everyone of us has relied upon, needed, used and benefited from other people. We stand on the shoulders of many, many people who came before us or who somehow assisted us or helped us, whether voluntarily or knowingly or not.

Every "RICH" person has gotten THEIR cash , or land, or power or WHATEVER bysomehow by cheating, stealing, lying, manipulating, taking advantage of or using someone weaker or smaller or less competent or able. Some times it literally goes back CENTURIES.. but it's always true.

I look back on the history of mankind and it's largely grim and distasteful. The white men ripping off the Indians, plying them with liquor, selling weapons to both sides of a conflict, giving them smallpox infested blankets, raping their women and giving them syphilis... cheating them out of their land, killing them, ridiculing them and then herding them off into isolated unwanted areas...

big corporations cheating the poor overseas so they could turn a profit, so WE could have cheap disposable consumer goods... it's just a long and reprehensible parade of dishonesty, bullying, lying and manipulation. I seriously doubt any man or family or company even EXISTS who is rich that has NOT somehow gained advantage via dishonest or less than honorable means,, somewhere down the line. Trace it back run down the leads... the Bushes... all the people whose multiple generations have gone to Stanford.. etc.

Do I think it all boils down to having incentive, and hard work and stuck to it iveness? NO.m I have worked INCREDIBLY hard most of my life.. all (thus far) to no avail. But I HAVE been cheated, lied to stolen from and manipulated, all by supposedly "normal" upstanding "businessmen" all of whom profited off of MY hard work and undoubtedly the hard work of many others. it's STANDARD fare from the rich! So much so that there's this quasi acceptance of it all. NO.I can see and feel and observe and I know from my own experience what the truth is.. and it's exceedingly ugly. yes there are "good" people, but as far as I'm concerned anyone who amasses a large amount of p money and power and resources without pumping it BACK into the system they stole or cheated or extracted it OUT of is evil and yes, we have the right and the obligation to ensure that they play fair. Thus, we tax the wealthy. Who NEEDS $83,000,000 to LIVE, whether it's "deserved" or NOT?. I will always be a strong and committed socialist and humanist.
 
i dont think its quite so simple. the path toward property, egotism, greed, etc was not the invention of one outsider... it was a collective transformation, although there is a lot of truth to how you put it, there was/is definitely a lot of deception from concentrated power centres
 
I think capitalism can be a force for good; because when it comes down to it, its not the system that matters, its the level of cooperation and citizenship that people display that really matters. If we take an attitude of group cooperation, we can ensure success and a good life for anyone who wants it. We just have to stop being competitive dicks, hoarding away vast amounts of money concentrated within a small minority, and practice entrepreneurship with conscientiousness and good will.
 
Money itself is a problem tho - in the days before money (I recall them well & I'm still living them) one could only store up so much perishable produce & keep so many herds of woolly mammoths before it became a logistical nightmare which was unsustainable. The problem is the finite size of Earth. Capitalism thrives where expansion is possible. Expansion is most definitely not going to be sustainable in the medium term. Capitalism "believes" that the market will take care of things in the end. Trouble is that's about as logical as believing god/spacemen/neptune/bluelight will save us all from a terrible fate/dying/running out of LSD.
 
Re OP: Sometimes, definitely, but stealing is hardly unique to any economic status. Most of the time, though, I think the "poor" give to the "rich", then blame them for their wealth.
 
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