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Thread: Loperamide/kratom - Experienced - Potentiating kratom

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    Loperamide/kratom - Experienced - Potentiating kratom 
    #1
    So recently I've become more and more aware of reports around the web that Loperamide (the active chemical in the anti-diarrhea medicine Imodium) may have potential as a recreational Opioid if taken at very high doses (50-100+ mg). Some of the best threads about this are found here on Bluelight.

    It was in one of these BL Loperamide threads that I noticed a few posters (including Xorkoth who I consider a very credible individual) reported that they'd noticed that if they took a very high dose of Loperamide and then ingested Kratom a few hours later that the resulting Kratom buzz was stronger and longer lasting. Most folks upon hearing this claim would prob. instantly dismiss the idea that Loperamide could potentiate Kratom and not give it any further thought. I, however, try to be very open minded when it comes to drug experimentation and not just be so quick to write things off.

    So I first tried using a high dose of Loperamide alone to see if it did in fact have any recreational Opioid effects on its own. From what I'd read online it sounded like people were usually taking at least 60-70 mg or more of Loperamide for a buzz and I'd heard Lope (my nickname for Loperamide) takes a few hours to kick in.

    So one night a few weeks ago I popped 70 mg and waited. I did in fact notice a couple hours later that my body was warmer and more relaxed and my mind was more peaceful and content. The mental and physical euphoria was very subtle, nothing strong at all, however the warmth my body felt was way too significant to just be placebo. I eventually smoked a bowl of good nugg and def. noticed a more intense body and mental stone than usual. Now things def. felt opiate-like. I swallowed the remaining 26 mg of Lope and for the rest of the night I was pleasantly relaxed and upbeat and had no worries.

    That first experience alone didn't make me too enthusiastic about Lope's potential. Sure, I'd had a good time and it didn't feel bunk and did give me some relaxation but to fully enjoy it I'd had to smoke nugg a few times throughout the night plus I really didn't like how expensive the Loperamide buzz was (I'd paid $12 for just 96 mg).

    I did end up revisiting Lope more after all though when I discovered how much cheaper it is at Wal-Mart to buy their Equate brand Loperamide. I saw that a bottle of 48 there was only $6 or $7. And for $12 one could buy 2 bottles of 96 mg each and get a much better value. So I scooped up more Loperamide, thinking I'd now see if it synergized with Kratom as claimed.

    Well, I can report it seems as if it definitely does potentiate and lengthen my Bali Kratom buzzes, although, I still readily admit maybe I just have quite the imagination and have duped myself into experiecing profound placebo effects. I've used Lope and Kratom together on 3 or 4 occasions now and consistently got the same results.

    For one thing, it seems like the Kratom kicks in faster. It's a warmer, heavier body high than taking Kratom by itself. Kratom's peak seems to linger a lot longer and drop off more gradually than usual. See, usually when I eat Kratom I'm only content around 2 hours or so and start strongly craving and obsessing about wanting to redose. However, if I've preloaded on Imodium it seems like Kratom keeps me content a good 3-4 hours or more. Like last Fri. I couldn't get over that over 4 hours after my last dose of Kratom I still felt really really nicely opiated thanks to the Lope.

    So if anyone wants to give this combo a try this is my advice on how to do it. Take 50-70 mg of Loperamide and wait at least 2 hours. 2 or 3 hours after ingesting your Lope eat your Kratom (making sure you haven't eaten in a few hours as food tends to make Kratom kick in slower and more weakly).

    Me, how I eat Kratom is real simple. I make sure it's in a finely ground form and I dump it in a cup and add (usually) milk, Splenda and a sweet flavor of coffee creamer (like French Vanila) and stir vigorously for a while. Then I chug it like a true Kratomite. Some people bother preparing teas or doing fancy extractions but I see this as pointless. Why risk losing some of your Kratom by preparing it these ways when you can just swallow it as it is and ensure you absorb every last bit of alkaloids.

    Anyone who is considering ridiculing me or telling me off just keep in mind I pointed out I'm aware Loperamide's potentiation of Kratom may just be placebo but it sure as heck doesn't feel like it and feels nice...

    Oh, and sorry if I'm posting this thread in the wrong forum or something. I wasn't sure whether to post here or Simple or Advanced Drug Discussion. I thought posting in Other Drugs would give me the best responses seen by the most people who might find my information useful.

    substancecode_loperamide
    substancecode_kratom
    substancecode_opiates
    substancecode_opioids
    substancecode_pharms
    _combo_
    Last edited by Xorkoth; 21-11-2008 at 15:52.
     

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    #2
    Bluelighter QuasiStoned's Avatar
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    I occasionally use loperamide with pod tea and used to mix it with kratom. I did in fact notice an increase in the duration of the kratom buzz, from about 2 hours to 4 hours or more.

    It extends the duration of pod tea considerably (and pod tea lasts forever as is) and seems to increase the buzz, probably because less gets to bind in the gut.

    I don't even take that much, just 24mg could be used for potentiation. But I think that it helps.
     

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    #3
    Moving to Trip Reports.
     

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    #4
    Bluelighter psychedelicious's Avatar
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    QuasiStoned, that's exactly what I was thinking - loperamide stays out of the brain, causing a greater-than-usual amount of kratom actives to end up in the brain.

    cool Wizard, thanks for sharing! keep us posted on your findings!
     

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    #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuasiStoned View Post
    I occasionally use loperamide with pod tea and used to mix it with kratom. I did in fact notice an increase in the duration of the kratom buzz, from about 2 hours to 4 hours or more.

    It extends the duration of pod tea considerably (and pod tea lasts forever as is) and seems to increase the buzz, probably because less gets to bind in the gut.

    I don't even take that much, just 24mg could be used for potentiation. But I think that it helps.
    A week or two ago I started trying the high dose oral loperamide after some tries with the ISO extract and insufflation.. the stuff burns too much to be useful that way.. When I started trying it on and off, with and without cimetidine via the high dose oral route, I got satisfying effects. I discussed my experiences with The Wizard and that it was actually quite strong for me on it's own. He tried it and it didn't work as well for him, but when he came up with the kratom combo I had the same logic.. that the receptors in the rest of the body in the majority of the population will be filled up by loperamide and it can't pass through the BBB.. that's why it'd be stronger and longer lasting, the kratom would have nowhere to go but the brain...where in most people it'd have little-to-nothing to compete with for receptors.

    I had a theory as to why it works well orally for a small percentage of the people who try it, including myself. I've used it enough times to say it's consistent now and not placebo. I've actually gone into it several times thinking it wouldn't work anymore, but it's always making me feel numb in the face and all itchy, especially the next day for some reason.. I wake up and am itchy all over.. I also get analgesia and moderate euphoria (was stronger the first few times.. I've taken some breaks in between uses and it's kept the tolerance down but it used to be stronger). I also feel like it's pretty damn long lasting.

    My theory was this: if you've read about using DXM, you've probably read how some people will get inordinately strong effects from it; the people who don't metabolize it as well because of CYP2D6 deficiency. I think I might be one of those people, and those are the people feeling good effects from high dose oral use of loperamide. DXM was always really strong for me and I never felt like I got much of a tolerance from it. I could even feel doses as low as 60mg's and the psychological changes. It was almost impossible for me to get a 1st plateau dose because it was strong enough for me that i'd overshoot it too easily. Other evidence from my own personal drug history is when I take codeine, it's never nearly as strong as other opiates. I get extremely itchy and very very little euphoria, less than I actually experience from loperamide. I think that could be because of the poor CYP2D6 enzyme metabolism as well, because codeine is basically a pro-drug for morphine. If it doesn't get turned into morphine it's not very active. It could explain why some people are getting central effects from loperamide. It's like our bodies are already always on cimetidine or GFJ.. and as I've read, cimetidine won't help but will actually hurt codeine experiences for the reasons I'm citing.

    This is also something to keep in mind if people decide to try loperamide to potentiate other opiates.. if someone who reacts strongly to loperamide by itself (lets assume these people exist and these experienced drug users aren't just trying to play a joke on people) tries to potentiate another opiate, there could be an increased OD risk.. Harm prevention first, right? If I let my opiate tolerance go all the way down again (assuming loperamide has raised it) and then tried.. say.. poppy tea and loperamide at about 60mgs, I have a feeling I could get potentially dangerous effects. Most people wouldn't, but assuming there are some people out there who get good effects from loperamide by itself, you probably shouldn't try potentiating other opioids with loperamide until you find out how you react to maybe 50-60 mg's of it by itself.. if you feel like you get a high from it or any respiratory depression (i've had light respiratory depression from high doses of lope on it's own akin to oxy or pod tea.. not dangerous, but noticeable) you might want to wade in the waters a bit before you dive in and try an 80mg dose with your normal dose of kratom or whatever else. It could have a potential for dangerous side effects associated with opiate overdose in a small amount of people..

    It's like with DXM, they recommend trying it low-dose first to see how you react and to make sure you're not one of these poor metabolizers.. if that's why some people are getting strong effects from loperamide then you should take it slow. I have so far been someone who gets satisfying effects from loperamide on it's own, so if I decided to try to potentiate something else with it I'll take it nice and slow.

    Please note that I'm trying to be constructive, I'm not saying CYP2D6 deficiency is the definite reason for some people getting good effects from loperamide. I just think it's the most likely theory without calling it placebo, and I think it's somewhat disrespectful to call it placebo when experienced drug users are telling others that it's definitely not. I don't think that many experienced users would be wrong, but who knows.. maybe I am tricking myself into feeling this good. If so, I'll hope all the rest of you can figure out how to do it. I think the deficiency thing could be a much more plausible theory, and even if it's wrong it's more constructive than insulting people it works for or calling it placebo.. If you're one of those people who gets a really strong reaction to DXM from lower doses than other people need, then loperamide might be worth a shot for you, moreso than other people... but that's only if this theory is correct.. I wish I could run some sort of trials with known people with CYP2D6 deficiencies. I could be totally wrong though.

    Anyway, this thread is mainly about potentiation.. I just wanted to add that because if it does work for some people on it's own, there's a slight danger for those people trying to potentiate stronger opioids with loperamide. Keep that in mind above all the other things I've said. If you're going to try potentiating with it, you should likely see how you react to it alone first at a higher dose. I'd also like to say that me and the wizard have discussed a lot of things and known eachother for awhile and he seems to be a hardhead to a lot of substances. If this works good enough that he wanted to make a topic about it here, then I'd say it's definitely working for him and would likely work for a lot of other people. He's one of the most skeptical people I've talked to, but he also has an open mind. I say try it out, but yea, use caution. The second time I tried oral loperamide was 84mg's.. I felt really great like other opiates I've used, and just like other opiates I had cigarette cravings. Also just like other opiates, after a few of them the opiation felt way stronger and I felt somewhat nauseous.. also the respiratory depression was more pronounced.. this is why I think caution should be used, if you're like me and get strong effects from it on it's own, then adding in other opiates or alcohol might be a bad idea.

    I'll stop rambling now..
     

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    #6
    I would imagine it would.. if none of the loperamide makes it into the brain for you, then I'd imagine almost any opiate would hit the brain harder because of nowhere else to bind. We have people saying it works for kratom and pod tea so far, so that gives us confirmation (if this is why it works) for kratom, which are very atypical opioids, and then more traditional ones like codeine and morphine. If they all work I'd imagine oxy and hydro would too.. maybe even ones similar to loperamide would work, like fentanyl.. more experimentation needs to be done, but yea this thread is really interesting. There's some real potential here for potentiation.. it'd be nice to have a potentiator that didn't involve chugging GFJ all day or making it sleepier like with antihistamines.
     

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    #7
    Ex-Bluelighter Gaian Planes's Avatar
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    it depends if the affinity for the opiate molecule is higher or lower (than loperamide) for those gut receptors I would guess.
     

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    Thanks for sharing, man. I'm changing the title to conform to TR standards. Let me know if you want it edited.
     

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    #9
    Bluelighter psychedelicious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaian Planes View Post
    it depends if the affinity for the opiate molecule is higher or lower (than loperamide) for those gut receptors I would guess.
    jah, it'd be awesome if loperamide has really strong bindin affinity... I wonder how much of a non-loperamide opioid gets into the brain and how much GETS (stuck) IN MY BELLY
     

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    #10
    Bluelighter UptownOG's Avatar
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    I was trying to find a specific thread about kratom, but I'll just try my luck in this thread. I'm a first time kratom user and have a4 grams of 15x extract, fine powder on the way. Am not much of a fan of bitter tasting herbs. I've heard even in fine powder form and dissolved in water, kratom is still quite nasty. I was wondering if I could capsule up a gram, which is the recommended dose, and just pop a few capsules? Or is this method inferior to mixing it in tea or water? I would rather down a buncha gelcaps filled with the powder, but need somke advice as i have no experience with kratom.
     

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    #11
    Bluelighter spacefacethebassace's Avatar
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    I hate to ask this in TR, but doesn't a high dose of loperamide leave one constipated for days?

    This does not sound healthy.
     

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    #12
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    Not too badly if you're already accustomed to opiates... if you've had an opiate habit for long enough you'll eventually come to be able to "relieve yourself" anyway. At least that's true with kratom. On the few occasions I've taken loperamide to potentiate kratom, I will pretty much skip a day of shitting and then be fine the next day. Also I think taking a whole bunch doesn't really constipate you any more than an effective dose of it. At least it seems that way to me.
     

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    #13
    I had a week or so where I used loperamide for a few days and then stopped a few.. I stopped using cimetidine at some point.. I was taking loperamide a few hours after cimetidine and getting sub-par effects that day, then the next day getting much better effects without cimetidine.. my theory was the acid inhibition of the cimetidine was ruining the effects and making it metabolize badly.. I went with that theory and loperamide slowly got less and less effective till I felt like I needed a long break because I finally had a tolerance..

    I had planned on waiting awhile after my last dose to try it again for tolerance to go down.. I decided, on a whim, to test my OTHER theory, which was that cimetidine potentiates better the day after you take it if you take it the night before your dose.. I took the cimetidine then my last loperamide dose the next day and it was strong again, but still not as strong as it was originally.. this leads me to beleive the cimetidine was important, and taking it the night before you try it is more beneficial than a few hours beforehand.. There is still a buildup of tolerance however.. the effects are much less itchy and strong even with a higher dose (around 100mg's instead of like 80, which at one point felt like too much to me) and i will likely take a break for a little while..

    But I did buy more when I realized the cimetidine was helping all along.. I might try it to potentiate poppy seed tea with it now, because I bought some seeds, and as always I'll be careful and report and results.. I took 96 mg's of loperamide today around 10:45.. it usually peaks between 3-4 hours and I already feel it, the 3 hour mark is in like 20 minutes.. 4 hour mark 1 hour after that.. so it feels pretty good again so far with the night-before cimetidine.. If it's not too interesting I might treat myself to trying this potentiation trick tonight with a 1/2 lb bag of poppy seeds.. or maybe 1lb.. these seeds have shown themselves to be strong enough for me without tolerance to kill my pain problems at 1/2lb tea level.. but yesterday, after 2 days without loperamide, I barely felt the tea.. I don't know if it was my lack of hot water to prepare it (i did it in a friend's car) or if I have tolerance now from the loperamide use.. either way I could test out the potentiation theory tonight.

    It'd be nice if this could go back to Advanced Drug Discussion or Other Drugs where it'd get more attention, it's not really a trip report but more of a theoretical discussion.. and the description on Advanced is "Discussion of journal articles, drug science and other theoretical topics".. this to me is drug science and theoretical topics, but oh well.. sorry if that's out of line, but I'm not trying to be rude.. I'm just interested in the topic.
     

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    #14
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    Was your post moved from somewhere else to here? I agree it might not really belong in this thread. I don't think it belongs in ADD either, as that forum is for discussion of chemistry-related details of drugs. I can move this somewhere if you'd like. There is another loperamide thread in this forum, actually, that's more general. This one is about potentiating kratom with loperamide.
     

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    #15
    Yeah I thought my thread was more suited for Advance Drug Discussion or Other Drugs or just whichever forum would be best to open a discussion on peoples knowledge and theories about combining loperamide and kratom. I feel like if it's left in trip reports it's just kind of lost from most people's view because I figure people who look at the trip report forum a lot are looking for trip reports about the more popular drugs and might scoff at seeing my thread and doubt the combo could work so much that they dont both even clicking on my thread. Whereas, I find Advanced Drugs and Other Drugs draw a more open minded experimental crowd who loves to get into lengthy back and forth disucssions about the possibilities of drugs.

    As always you rock Xorkoth By the way have you tried combining Kratom with psychedelics yet? QUITE the lovely combo. Try Krat with some 2Cx's, L, MDxx's, LSA, Cacti, Psilo, DMT or Salvia and you shall see what I'm talkin bout, Willis.
     

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    #16
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    Oh, I've combined kratom with all the psychedelics I've ever used. I usually take kratom on the plateau/come-down. It's good at any stage though. Unlike opiates, it doesn't really diminish the psychedelic-ness of the trip. it just makes if more euphoric and physically pleasant. It actually increases the psychedelic of some psychedelics. I wonder if it has something to do with the fact that mitragynine and related compounds carry the tryptamine skeleton... they're closest in structure to indole, rather than opiates (interesting since it doesn't seem to affect the serotonin system, but mostly opiate receptors and dopamine.
     

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    #17
    Xorkoth, have you ever used an energetic strain (Thai, Malay) of Kratom with a psychedelic or only sedating Kratoms (Bali, Indo). I've only used Bali with psychedelics and have a feeling a more alert type of Kratom like Thai might better mix with tripping. Or perhaps, ideally, a 50/50 mix of Thai and Bali while tripping *drools*
     

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