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    Opiates: Natural vs. Synthetic 
    #1
    Bluelighter pallidamors's Avatar
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    My apologies if there's already been a thread like this.

    From what I can tell, most seasoned opiate veterans seem to prefer either natural or synthetics. Some people claim that an opioid is an opioid, but I disagree.

    For me, natural opiates/oids have much more of a heavy, body-load type feeling, almost as if gravity is exerting an unnaturally strong force on me. I get less euphoria from them, and my thinking seems muddled.

    With synthetics, my body seems somehow lighter, I get much more euphoric, and creative processes, like writing and drawing, come more easily to me, along with ideas I may not have had were I sober.

    What do you think? Do you find a personal difference in how you respond to naturals vs. synthetics? What do you think could account for this difference?
     

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    #2
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    yeah i agree with u, there is a definete difference between the two.

    For me, fully synthetic opiates like fentanyl give me a different high, and no nod. While a natural opiate, like morphine (well i think its natural :/ give me a more intense nod. Also natural like codeine and morphine are more itchy, were a synthetic like fent doesnt make me itch. Syntetics are also more speedy and make me talkative

    Also, if the categories are strictly syn vs natural I guess syn is better. But I'm not 100% sure I'm classifying some right

    So, correct me if I'm wrong...
    1) I think oxycodone is a semi synthetic, so synthetic for this discussion?
    2) morph and codeine : natural
    3) opium: self explainatory
    4) heroin: semi syn?? (kinda confused on this cuz one)
    5) fent: full syn (as are fent analogues)
    6) k4/dilaudid : syn

    I'm guessing on these but it seems logical, eh?
     

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    #3
    I personally like semi-synthetics. These include hydromorphone, hydrocodone, oxycodone, oxymorphone, etc...

    Natural: Euphoric, releases histimes, longer lasting.

    Semi-synthetic: Extremely eurphoric, short acting,and little histime release.

    Synthetic: Mild eurphoria, no histime release, long half-life.
     

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    #4
    Bluelighter pallidamors's Avatar
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    ^Hm, interesting point, about the semi-synthetics. I usually just lump those in with fully synthetic, but my favorite opiates are: fentanyl, oxycodone, and levorphanol, so I think I lean farther toward the synthetic than semisynthetic.

    I didn't know that fully synthetic opioids didn't release histamine. I know that I don't really get an itch with levorphanol, so that makes sense. However, I have gotten the itch from fentanyl, what would you classify that one as?
     

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    #5
    The difference is Histamine release. Natural opiates and semi-synthetic opioids derived from Morphine are very high in Histamine release, accounting for the itchy scratchy dopey feeling and firework rush.

    Codeine and Thebaine derived semi-synthetics (Oxycodone) and full synthetics (Methadone, Meperidine, Fentanyl) are low in Histamine release. They are more energetic and 'clean' feeling.

    Histamine seems to be the main difference between them. The studies I've seen point to Morphine/Heroin (i.e. the first category) as being more pleasurable / better accepted than any of the synthetics (second category) to addicts and former addicts.

    Notice too that in most countries Morphine is really the only high Histamine release opioid prescribed heavily. Nicomorphine in some countries, Heroin in some, etc. In general theres a much heavier reliance on synthetics in pain management and other medical applications for opioids (IBS, severe cough, etc).
    This is probably because the codeine/thebaine derived semi-synthetics and full synthetics are seen as less euphoric/have less abuse potential. Although every opioid down to Diphenoxylate/Codeine/Propoxyphene and so on have high, absolute abuse potential.

    EDIT: Histamine is still released, just not as much with some semi and all synthetics. A big shot of Morphine has an almost unpleasant, intense burning pins and needles sensation. I don't know of any synthetic that does this. The itch from Morphine/Heroin is much more severe than that of Oxycodone/Fentanyl/Levorphanol. Sometimes I drew blood scratching so much from the former.
     

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    #6
    Bluelighter pallidamors's Avatar
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    These are great responses so far. I've tried posing the same question in another board, only to hear people tell me that "all opiates/opioids are pretty much the same and I can't tell the difference."

    I'm learning alot from these posts, keep em coming!
     

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    #7
    The anecdotal evidence is all over the place. A big reason why Heroin is the largest clandestinely produced opioid is that it is so well accepted among users. Morphine is much cheaper and easier to produce on a massive scale with third world farmers and organized crime syndicates- so why do they go to the trouble to synth Heroin instead? It has similar profile to Morphine, but when taken produces a smoother rush and more euphoria, it's just a better version of Morphine in terms of pleasure for most people.

    In the late 70's to mid 80's Fentanyl and Meperidine analogues were synthed and put on the street as Heroin, but weren't well accepted. From a financial standpoint, those that originally did this made a mint. Billions of doses could be made from one medium cook on a much smaller scale than that of Heroin- which requires international trafficking, farmers, poppy fields, lots of chemicals, lots of people. The reason why AMF or 3-methyl-Fentanyl aren't made on the black market with any regularity is that people prefer Heroin. Desomorphine, Nicomorphine, most of the possible semi-synthetic derivatives of Morphine would probably be just as well accepted as Diacetylmorphine. But compared to these Heroin is simpler to mass produce.

    Some synthetics might be more pleasurable, more euphoric than Heroin, lots of people love Dextromoramide and Ketobemidone, but you aren't going to see them on the black market outside of those extremely rare prescriptions in a few European countries.
     

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    #8
    Bluelighter pallidamors's Avatar
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    Heroin passes into the brain more easily, and is about twice the strength of morphine (I've heard), which is part of the reason it's more enjoyed by users.

    I've always figured that part of the equation is that the first type of opiate you get into, you'll stick with. So if you start with codeine/morphine/heroin, you'll enjoy natural/more natural semi-synths more. I started with hydro and oxycodones, and I enjoy (semi-)synthetics more. But after these responses, I'm starting to think that most people enjoy the more natural opioids more, and I'm in the minority.

    I mean, I'd probably love black market rare European drugs more than an unlimited supply of H.
     

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    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by pallidamors
    Heroin passes into the brain more easily, and is about twice the strength of morphine (I've heard), which is part of the reason it's more enjoyed by users.

    I've always figured that part of the equation is that the first type of opiate you get into, you'll stick with. So if you start with codeine/morphine/heroin, you'll enjoy natural/more natural semi-synths more. I started with hydro and oxycodones, and I enjoy (semi-)synthetics more. But after these responses, I'm starting to think that most people enjoy the more natural opioids more, and I'm in the minority.

    I mean, I'd probably love black market rare European drugs more than an unlimited supply of H.
    Opioid addiction and dependency (and all of the historical, social, economic, cultural and legal implications it entails) are infinitely complicated. Historically, if an Opioid is available, it will be abused. A good example is pain medication trends in the USA. In the 60's and 70's, low dose Oxycodone products were produced en masse for pain control (like Tylox and Percodan). Abuse was widespread, so Methadone came into favor as a 'less abusable' alternative to Oxycodone. Abuse was widespread, overdoses of Methadone went up, so again Oxycodone products were brought out as a less-addictive, safer alternative to Methadone (this includes and culminates with the introduction of OxyContin in '95, and the common Percocet brand). OxyContin and low dose Oxycodone products exploded again in popularity, overdoses went up, primary addiction to OxyContin was born (after Purdue Pharma promised OxyContin was a less addictive opioid), doctors were being prosecuted for prescribing it and patients were denied legit prescriptions. Mid 2000's, Methadone again is prescribed more as an alternative to Oxycodone products. Recently the 'Methadone is a Killer' articles are surfacing in the local media wherever addiction and overdose rates are high.

    In the 60's and 70's, Rx abuse was rapidly entrenched in rural Virginia, Oxycodone was one of if not the most popular RX drug of abuse. In the 90's when OxyContin debuted and Percocet came back in force, Appalachia again developed an Oxycodone abuse problem. The media gave this 'Hillbilly Heroin' phenom a lot of attention, ignoring the fact that RX Opioid abuse, specifically with Oxycodone, had already become part of the regions culture 20 years earlier.

    Theres a lot more to opiates and all that goes with it than you'd think.
     

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    #10
    Bluelighter pallidamors's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tchort
    Theres a lot more to opiates and all that goes with it than you'd think.
    Very true. This class of drugs reminds me of a fractal: seemingly simple on the surface, but the more you look at them, the more infinitely complex they get.
     

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    #11
    my favourite opiates when I was addicted for 3 years were:

    1) MS-Contin - morphine
    2) Dilaudids -hydromorphone

    Oxy-contin, Demerol, codeine were my last resorts if nothing else was available. Thank God Heroin wasn't available.

    I loved the intense tight hug/rush immediately following Dilaudid IV the most.

    I hated the pins and needles from morphine but loved how long I could go on one shot! Morphine was my drug of choice then for the fact that I could wake up sick, fix up some M and be good til later in the afternoon... Saved money too as it was cheap and undesirable as Oxy's and Dillies were the most sought after.

    Codeine made me bunged up and itchy- I disolved the codeine in warm water and filtered the acetaminophen so I didn't scald my liver with a whole bottle worth of Tylenol... Extraction worked good with Perc's to for a last resort.

    Oxy's are crap if you ask me. They are too expensive for one. There is no rush and they have no legs once you break the time release when dissolving the tablets. An 80 is 30$ on the street! 200mg morphine is 20$ and it lasts.

    I never fucked with Fentanyl as too many ppl die from that stuff. There's a certain way to prepare it for IV that I wasn't aware of so I smoked some Fentanyl tokes and ate the patch.

    Sorry if you dont like my long reply. I tried to keep it short!
     

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    #12
    Yea, I"m going to have to go with synthetic. I say that because I'm not a huge fan of Morphine. Morphine has to much a head-high and often has to many sedate qualities-- at least for me. I wish i liked Morphine more because its so easy to get in the form of pods and seeds. The only time i use Morphine/pods is when i am out of my DOC. They sure save my butt but Morphine makes me lazy, i don't want to do much when i take it and i prefer a speedier high.

    Damn i can barely stop nodding. I HATE NODDING. that Ativan i took last night ruined my fent high today darn it lol. And the two together have got nodding big time, which i don't like. I'd rather be up doing crap. Oh well.. I forgot how long Atians half life is, darn it Can you believe it's been 24 hours since i took those Atvan and i only barely feel the whole 50mcg patch i did--sublingual. Don't worry, i have a tolerance and a 50 mcg patch is norma for me. Usually i do a half, or a full patch or somewhere in between. never did more than ne patch and don't plan on it.

    So yea, my ick is synthetic. I actually know a few people who only like the natural opiates but hey, if that floats your boat, more power to you!!

    Rpg
     

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    #13
    Bluelighter
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    Here is a list of the opiates I've tried with the first one being the one I enjoyed the most and the last one being the one I most disliked.

    1. Fentanyl
    2. Oxycodone
    3. Morphine
    4. Hydrocodone
    5. Hydromorphone
    6. Codeine
    7. Heroin

    Yeah I know, some of you may be wondering why I like heroin the least and I'm not really sure why. I've only done it twice (never IV'd anything) and both times I didn't like it so I never bothered to buy it again. I'm not sure if it was the quality or what.

    So I guess my answer to the question is that I prefer synthetics over natural.
     

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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by sunset117
    So, correct me if I'm wrong...
    1) I think oxycodone is a semi synthetic, so synthetic for this discussion?
    2) morph and codeine : natural
    3) opium: self explainatory
    4) heroin: semi syn?? (kinda confused on this cuz one)
    5) fent: full syn (as are fent analogues)
    6) k4/dilaudid : syn

    I'm guessing on these but it seems logical, eh?
    1. yes
    2. yes
    3. yes, I suppose
    4. semi-synthetic
    5. yes
    6. semi-synthetic

    If it has the morphine structure in it, its semi-synthetic. If not, its fully synthetic. And of course, the natural ones are those found in the opium poppy. There are many, but the only two that matter for recreational use are morphine and codeine.
     

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    #15
    Bluelighter 'medicine cabinet''s Avatar
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    Semi-Heroin

    Natural-Morphine

    There is something about the full synthetics like fent that jsut dont do it for me. its no warmth, just str8 cold euphoria. Honestly, i really like morphine.
     

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    #16
    Bluelighter pallidamors's Avatar
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    ^see, its the straight euphoria and semi-altered thought processes that I most enjoy, most semi-synths that i have tried and the natural ones don't deliver. I just feel so much more creative on synthetic opiods and select semi-synths, matched with the euphoria, that's exactly what I want out of a drug.
     

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    #17
    Bluelighter
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    Quote Originally Posted by william1985
    I personally like semi-synthetics. These include hydromorphone, hydrocodone, oxycodone, oxymorphone, etc...

    .
    I think most will again agree with william1985 with those being the best. Any group with hydro, oxy, dilly, and opanas takes the cake



    I am a little confused by the full-synthetics. As JC confirmed, Fentanyl is a 'full' synthetic, as are the analogues, what are other examples?
     

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    #18
    Bluelighter suessmayr's Avatar
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    Having used mainly codeine, morphine and oxycodone I can say that the latter shits all over the first two.

    Lighter, happier, more sensual and stimulating, and easier to come off.
     

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    #19
    Bluelighter pallidamors's Avatar
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    ^any fentanyl analogue, and levorphanol. I guess maybe tramadol would also qualify since it binds opioid receptors?
     

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    #20
    Bluelighter Mr Blonde's Avatar
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    From Wikipedia:

    Synthetic opioids

    Anilidopiperidines

    * Fentanyl
    * Alphamethylfentanyl
    * Alfentanil
    * Sufentanil
    * Remifentanil
    * Carfentanyl
    * Ohmefentanyl

    Phenylpiperidines

    * Pethidine (meperidine)
    * Ketobemidone
    * MPPP
    * Allylprodine
    * Prodine
    * PEPAP

    Diphenylpropylamine derivatives

    * Propoxyphene
    * Dextropropoxyphene
    * Dextromoramide
    * Bezitramide
    * Piritramide
    * Methadone
    * Dipipanone
    * Levomethadyl Acetate (LAAM)
    * Loperamide (used for diarrhoea, does not cross the blood-brain barrier)
    * Diphenoxylate (used for diarrhoea, does not appreciably cross the blood-brain barrier)

    Benzomorphan derivatives

    * Dezocine
    * Pentazocine
    * Phenazocine

    Oripavine derivatives

    * Buprenorphine
    * Dihydroetorphine
    * Etorphine

    Morphinan derivatives

    * Butorphanol
    * Nalbuphine
    * Levorphanol
    * Levomethorphan

    Others

    * Lefetamine
    * Meptazinol
    * Tilidine
    * Tramadol
    * Tapentadol
     

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    #21
    Bluelighter
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    ^kinda covers it, lol
     

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    #22
    Bluelighter pallidamors's Avatar
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    haha, ok, thats one very good reason why mr blonde is the mod here...

    but still, what is YOUR personal choice on this class of drugs? Do you even notice a difference? or am I and all the previous responders full of shit and "an opioid is an opioid"?

    Pretend this is Rush Limbaugh (or the most relevant conservative, opiate-addled pundit of your choice) and sound off here!
     

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    #23
    Bluelight Crew paranoid android's Avatar
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    The only opioids as in fully synthetics ive had are propoxyphene, tramadol (guess thats a opioid?), meperidine, and fentanyl. As for opiates ive had codeine, oxycodone, morphine, hydromorphone. I think thats it anyway thats all i can remember at the moment atleast.

    Id have to say that in terms of killing pain which is what i most want fentanyl is by far the best. It's pretty euphoric as well but not as good as hydromorphone in terms of euphoria.

    So it's kind of a hard one for me. Guess it's a toss up.
     

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    #24
    Bluelighter BumpyJohnson's Avatar
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    I'd most certainly have to say the semi-synthetics.. diethyl-morphine.. hydromorph.. oxymorph.. hands down my favorites.. but I sure as hell would love to get my hands on some (synthetic opiate/s) fentanyl and some fentanyl analogs..
    but I guess I'm just more of a somewhat 'natural' opiate addict.. something about morphine and the like are what I love most..
     

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    #25
    Quote Originally Posted by pallidamors
    haha, ok, thats one very good reason why mr blonde is the mod here...
    Because he knows how to search?

    Well it is really, really hard...
     

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