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Heroin vs. Nicotine

Originally posted by SovietContin:
Johny, everything you said is entirely ignorant.
But I guess we shouldn't expect much from someone that can't even spell "control" correctly.
I apologize for my dyslexia.
Opiates alter brain chemistry. The brain can send impulses that override or at the very least rival conscious desires. It's a well established and proven fact. Opiates effect the decision making processes of the brain. That's also a well established a proven fact, which ties into what I said before. And the entire psychological experience can be enough to change previous concerns about addiction and health. And again, that's a well established and proven fact.
It really has nothing to do with being weak.
What you are talking about doesn't set in until you are addicted. Why let it gat that far in the first place. Now that's ignorant.
For a first time user the impulses are not so bad that you just can't stop using. They may not want to stop using though (and that's what's really stupid not the fact that I can't spell)
And it's particularly sad someone who knowingly became addicted to a substance that kills 400,000 Americans every year is not only going to call other addicts "weak", but is going to sit here and say they merely haven't tried to quit and that's why they continue using.
Yes I'm fucking weak I smoke ciggs and it's stupid. You inject a highly cut drug you buy on the street.
Think about it. I'm certainly no worse.
Oh.. and then partake in another substance that evidence keeps suggesting causes long-term damage to the brain.
Get real
Which substance would this be then?
I don't use anything but marijuana and alcohol anymore.
You get real.
Hey everyone don't listen to me I put two ll's on the end of a word while Soviet uses a spell checker every time just incase someone might see him spell a word wrongly :) I apologize for my dyslexia.
 
Johny Boy, while the statement that being a drug addict is due to weakness may be technically true given a wacked out enough definition of weak (I am not sure there is any reasonable one for personal strenght) it is still grossly misleading. Sure you might define week as something like being addicted to drugs, or doing things you know are bad for you (in which case you are weak) but the implication involved in this statement is clearly that somehow drug users have less strength of charachter (if this means anything) than the average individual.
First of all most drug users seem to have much more troubled lives (before their drug use) than non-users. I bet if we ran a survey on BL a ridiculous percent of the posters would come from really fucked up families. Most peoples implications in the word weak are of an essential charachter flaw, i.e. if most others went through the same situation they wouldn't end up this way. Do you have any evidence whatsoever to back up this sort of claim.
Secondly why do people who don't do drugs not do drugs? Its because society, parents, friends whatever tells them not to. It sure as hell isn't because of unbiased research into the subject. So if these people are not doing drugs merely because of peer pressure are they more or less weak than those who choose to do drugs?
Why am I even bothering going into those arguments. Unless you actually define these vague words you are using you aren't doing anything essentially differnt than saying "drug users are fuckers".
What the fuck does "No drug is impossible to control mean?" Many people in fact do not control their drug use. Is this some sort of philosophical belief that nature is fundamentally non-deterministic? Argghh nothing in your post means anything!!!
Soviet are you implying that nicotine (or other substances in tobacco) has been implicated in long term brain damage? If so do you have a source?
[ 13 August 2002: Message edited by: quale ]
 
Originally posted by quale:
Johny Boy, while the statement that being a drug addict is due to weakness may be technically true given a wacked out enough definition of weak (I am not sure there is any reasonable one for personal strength) it is still grossly misleading.
If my life was full enough with joy and constructive outlets would I do drugs? Fuck no! I do them to fill a gap, as do most people. They fill my weakness.
I would much rather know my weakness and strengths then blank out anything bad and just focus on the good point or else how do we developed.
Sure you might define week as something like being addicted to drugs, or doing things you know are bad for you (in which case you are weak) but the implication involved in this statement is clearly that somehow drug users have less strength of character (if this means anything) than the average individual.
No, I'm not saying that. I am saying I have got myself into an addiction I accept it and I know I'm weak for not fighting it for my health's sake. Every addict knows what they are doing isn't good for them but they make an excuses to allow them to give into it.
First of all most drug users seem to have much more troubled lives (before their drug use) than non-users. I bet if we ran a survey on BL a ridiculous percent of the posters would come from really fucked up families. Most peoples implications in the word weak are of an essential character flaw, i.e. if most others went through the same situation they wouldn't end up this way. Do you have any evidence whatsoever to back up this sort of claim.
Never said it was wrong, but anyone in an addiction knows it's not helping them.
But most choose to carry on.
You can only be what you where molded into but that doesn't mean you have to just give up and not fight.
Secondly why do people who don't do drugs not do drugs? Its because society, parents, friends whatever tells them not to. It sure as hell isn't because of unbiased research into the subject. So if these people are not doing drugs merely because of peer pressure are they more or less weak than those who choose to do drugs?
3rd option could be they just don't need them or find them fun.
Why am I even bothering going into those arguments. Unless you actually define these vague words you are using you aren't doing anything essentially different than saying "drug users are fuckers".
You bother because you feel I'm saying something that hurts your pride. Why do you feel stung.
All I've said is Heroin addicts aren't pathetic, they can help themselves if they want to. Its not an addiction to far. There is nothing wrong with drug use but using to the point where you know you are going to feel awful for days is stupid when you could just detox regularly enough to avoid severe addiction or withdrawal.
People get to defensive when you mention things that touch home closely to their lives.
All I try and do is provoke thought, I'm not trying to preach or teach.
I always strive to try and find a different side to the coin, not only to broaden my own horizons but if I say something which triggers discussion negative or positive I feel I have done something worthwhile.
What the fuck does "No drug is impossible to control mean?" Many people in fact do not control their drug use. Is this some sort of philosophical belief that nature is fundamentally non-deterministic? Argghh nothing in your post means anything!!!
What I mean is drug user are well aware of what they are getting into and they still do it.
They are well aware that banging heroin everyday will give them a nasty addiction and physical withdrawal symptoms.
What I mean by weak was if they didn't want to get addicted or go through withdrawal they could have stopped using. Heroin didn't just take over their mind and rid them of free will. They chose to give into the urges and accept that they will become addicted/withdraw/struggle to control their addiction and maybe die.
Seems fair enough assumption
What I'm saying is, a heroin addict must at some point decide to become an addict (consciously or sub consciously) It doesn't just happen.
(I spell checked your post too so Soviet doesn't have to ;) heheh )
[ 13 August 2002: Message edited by: Johny Boy ]
 
If my life was full enough with joy and constructive outlets would I do drugs? Fuck no! I do them to fill a gap, as do most people. They fill my weakness.
Sure I grant that people do drugs only because they are lacking in some regard. I still alledge this is one of those deceptive an perverse definitions of week (just because one posseses weaknesses i.e. is not perfect in no way implies they are weak in the normal sense of the term). First of all it seems EVERYONE is week under this definition. Can you name someone without a weakness, or even someone who hasn't done something (and usually a pattern of things) which were not in their absolute best interest because of these weaknesses?
If you are alledging drug addiction is a weakness everyone would agree with you. However, you are implying something much stronger, a relative deficit in charachter, when you alledge drug users are weak.
No, I'm not saying that. I am saying I have got myself into an addiction I accept it and I know I'm weak for not fighting it for my health's sake. Every addict knows what they are doing isn't good for them but they make an excuses to allow them to give into it.
As does everyone who eats at McDonalds. Are they week as well?
3rd option could be they just don't need them or find them fun.
Unlikely. First of all most of these people haven't tried drugs at all (especially if you exclude MJ and hallucinagens). Second of all suicide is like the second leadin causes of death in the 18-24 year old age bracket. 13% of the population is clinically depressed, 5% chronically so, I imagine many others are deeply dissatisfied with their lives. So I really don't think it is accurate to suggest that they just aren't doing drugs b/c they are psychologically A ok.
You bother because you feel I'm saying something that hurts your pride. Why do you feel stung.
All I've said is Heroin addicts aren't pathetic, they can help themselves if they want to. Its not an addiction to far. There is nothing wrong with drug use but using to the point where you know you are going to feel awful for days is stupid when you could just detox regularly enough to avoid severe addiction or withdrawal.
People get to defensive when you mention things that touch home closely to their lives.
First of all you didn't hurt my pride with these remarks at all, I just encounter these sort of deceptive (usually unitentionally) attacks on groups of people so often and they piss me off. I asked why I bothered with these arguments because until you can come up with a reasonable definition of week in terms of commonly agreed upon terms (you and I clearly don't have a similar notion of week apparently) you haven't actually said anything. It is no differnt than if you called drug users "blah" but "blah" has very bad conotations in most peoples mind. You still haven't made a statement.
Your doing it again with that shit about "people get defensive" crap. Now rather than actually argue about the issues you are trying to impinge my arguments by suggesting that they are based in some sort of psychological denial. Even if this were true it is irrelevant to the correctness of the argument.
What I'm saying is, a heroin addict must at some point decide to become an addict (consciously or sub consciously) It doesn't just happen.
Not really. I mean you can always take just one more shot etc.. etc.. There is no obvious bright line between recreational use and addiction. If shooting heroin once a month is okay why not 1.5 times etc.. etc..
Heroin didn't just take over their mind and rid them of free will.
That is an interesting question and not altogether clear. I mean heroin does fairly directly trigger reward centers in the brain and in so doing changes your brains wiring (as does everything you experience but heroin probably more intensely than most things in everyday life). It could quite reasonably be claimed it alters *who* you are. Maybe the new person has free will (another term I really don't understand) but now you are all bogged down in who choose to become and addict etc. etc..
This is all irrelevant anyway. The entire thrust of my eariler post was that you are implying that drug addicts are somehow essentially lacking in charachter that the average person has. You make no response to my point that you have NO EVIDENCE that a non drug addict would not have become one if he was in similar circumstances. Whether this is what you meant by weak or not it is how people interpret it and it is these kind of disparagement that so easily (though quite wrongly) let people lock up drug users and throw away the key instead of treating them like human beings with a problem, i.e. it doesn't happen to people like me.
 
Sure I grant that people do drugs only because they are lacking in some regard. I still allege this is one of those deceptive an perverse definitions of week (just because one possesses weaknesses i.e. is not perfect in no way implies they are weak in the normal sense of the term). First of all it seems EVERYONE is week under this definition. Can you name someone without a weakness, or even someone who hasn't done something (and usually a pattern of things) which were not in their absolute best interest because of these weaknesses?
Yes my definition of weak does include everyone because no one is perfect. You can be strong in one way and weak in another. That's a standard. I don't believe in Idols, everyone is struggling to live their life how ever they can. If heroins your thing fine, I'm sure some people can even bang it every day and still live totally normal lives. Why am I perverse for believing that everyone is human.
If you are alleging drug addiction is a weakness everyone would agree with you. However, you are implying something much stronger, a relative deficit in character, when you allege drug users are weak.
I'm saying no ones perfect. big deal.
Unlikely. First of all most of these people haven't tried drugs at all (especially if you exclude MJ and hallucinogens). Second of all suicide is like the second leading causes of death in the 18-24 year old age bracket. 13% of the population is clinically depressed, 5% chronically so, I imagine many others are deeply dissatisfied with their lives. So I really don't think it is accurate to suggest that they just aren't doing drugs b/c they are psychologically A ok.
Is it too much to believe that some people enjoy sobriety?
Not really. I mean you can always take just one more shot etc.. etc.. There is no obvious bright line between recreational use and addiction. If shooting heroin once a month is okay why not 1.5 times etc.. etc..
Do as much as you want just try and avoid getting physical withdrawal symptoms or a nasty addiction. 1 or 1.5 could be considered a habit but I'm sure it would be easily maintainable. I can even see it growing, but surely there is a choice made when you start using daily. I know then its like you're locked into it and that it takes a lot of strength to over come an addiction like heroin.
I've been there myself with pills/coke/crack or though never used any of them more than 2-3 times a weak at most, normally a lot less. I know what addiction is like. Your post seems to insinuate that I'm some how looking down on people and that I don't understand addiction.
Anyway I can't be bothered to reply to all of your post.
My original point was just that ciggs are nasty and well addictive and heroin can be maintained without actually falling into a nasty addiction by not doing it too regularly. Also that it didn't eat your mind like the propaganda would have you believe.
I might have said it a bit more brashly but it was a point that I thought more people would have agreed with rather than just saying that they can't control themselves (basically). And can't help their addiction. At least that's what it sounded like to me.
(I've just spell checked it to make sure Soviet Doesn't crucify me for mine and your typos unfortunatly it doesn't replace week with weak ;) )
[ 13 August 2002: Message edited by: Johny Boy ]
 
the gist of what I get from your post is you think I think non drug user are better than non drug users.
Simple answer incorrect, you assume to much.
Everyone has like I say time and time again strengths and weaknesses.
Some of my strengths have been developed from drug use.
Same with everyone we learn from everything, you just assume that because I said some people just don't like drugs or feel to do them that I think their better. I simpley think they don't enjoy drugs. Which you seem to assume is imposiable.
[ 13 August 2002: Message edited by: Johny Boy ]
 
Okay we agree then in principle if not in choice of language.
I was not saying no one can just not like drugs, I am sure many people don't like most drugs, what I was arguing was that for a huge percentage of people this is not the reason they don't use drugs. They don't use drugs because of societal/religous/family pressure (is something a weakness even if it results in something that may be good..I tend to think so...being clumsy isn't a strength but maybe you trip and fall before you walk in from of the bus).
My point was that calling someone weak is taken by most people, for instance myself and Soviet, as an indietment of general charachter and not simply failure to be all that you can be.
For the record I have never critiqued anyone else's spelling. As long as it is understandable it is really entierly irrelevant.
 
Ciggs on the other hand, I was 13 and stupid and have had a habit for years smoking everyday. I'm sure if I really tried I could give up but...
Also the favorite maxim of heroin addicts around the world!
 
Originally posted by AbraMontague:

Also the favorite maxim of heroin addicts around the world!
You're probbably right
 
Just to add my 2c worth, a good friend of mine was addicted to heroin for several years, but successfully kicked the habit a year ago... however he hasn't been able to quit smoking, and claims that it feels much harder to give up cigs than heroin, having tried more than a few times.
Of course that kind of thing varies from person to person.
 
Chart
http://www.drugwarfacts.com/addictiv.htm
Comparing Addictive Qualities of Popular Drugs
(Higher score indicates more serious effect)
First number is 1Dependence
2Withdra 3Tolerance 4Reinforcement 5Intoxication
1 2 3 4 5
------------------
Nicotine 6 4 5 3 2
Heroin 5 5 6 5 5
Cocaine 4 3 3 6 4
Alcohol 3 6 4 4 6
Caffeine 2 2 2 1 1
Marijuana1 1 1 2 3
 
Originally posted by FreakK:
comparing NICOTINE withdrawal to HEROiN withdrawal is simply not even worth comparing
That's all there is to it. I've never experienced heroin, only know opiate withdrawls twice via oxy and hydro at insane tolerances. A lot of people say it's nothing compared to H withdrawl. I would still choose nicotine instead of a horribly violent flu for 3 days.
Nicotine. More than anything, it's the hand-mouth routine and the frequency of use that keeps me failing to quit.
 
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