Opioids Methadone Mega Thread and FAQ

[skylines7]

Low Dose Methadone and Crazy Withdrawal

Okay, I switched from Suboxone to Methadone, and so far it has been much more successful.

I have read plenty of horror stories about how bad methadone is to come off of. I have also read bad stories about people jumping from ridiculous amounts like 95mg cold turkey, of course your going to withdraw very bad.

I am at 50mg right now, and just finishing up the first week. I plan on dropping down to 40mg next week, then to 30, and staying around there.

I know that there will be withdaaw no matter what dose you are at, my question is more about avoiding a serious long term withdrawal. The benefits of staying away from the life of a dope addict far exceed far exceep

 

[amapola]

Hey skylines7,

Here's a link from the OD directory on Methadone Withdrawl- 6 Days Clean- How Much Longer?

I'm going to merge this into the Methadone Mega Thread which I think if you read through you will find some great information and will be an appropriate place for your question. If you are looking more for support during recovery as your last sentence indicates but still want to stay in OD then you might find The Recovery Thread a helpful resource.

Best of luck!

 

[supermarket]

I have a question - What is the best dose of methadone to stay on in MMT, if I want to occasionally still use other opiates, such as my DOC (Oxycodone) recreationally?

In other words, whats the highest dose of methadone I can go on, without it completely interferring with my oxy high if I choose to use oxy on the same day?

Right now I'm on 50mg, and the clinic is going to keep me here for 3 days before I go up. Back when I went to another clinic a year ago, I was up to 80mg, which held me reallly well - but I also remember when I got that high, it started blocking other opiates.

Do you guys think I should stay at 50mg? As for withdrawals, I have to be on 50mg for a few days before I can determine if its actually enough to hold me or not. I'm hoping it is, since my tolerance has went down a decent bit since the days of being on 80mg of done.


So, if I'm on 50mg of methadone a day, should I still be able to experience a buzz from oxy without skipping my methadone dose? What about 60mg? I do know that 80mg was too high, and it blocked it then.

 

[debaser]

^ You're asking for too much. The high of oxycodone and the comfort of methadone. It doesn't work like that, at least in the long term.

 

[Ripamaru]

I have a question - What is the best dose of methadone to stay on in MMT, if I want to occasionally still use other opiates, such as my DOC (Oxycodone) recreationally?

In other words, whats the highest dose of methadone I can go on, without it completely interferring with my oxy high if I choose to use oxy on the same day?

Right now I'm on 50mg, and the clinic is going to keep me here for 3 days before I go up. Back when I went to another clinic a year ago, I was up to 80mg, which held me reallly well - but I also remember when I got that high, it started blocking other opiates.

Do you guys think I should stay at 50mg? As for withdrawals, I have to be on 50mg for a few days before I can determine if its actually enough to hold me or not. I'm hoping it is, since my tolerance has went down a decent bit since the days of being on 80mg of done.


So, if I'm on 50mg of methadone a day, should I still be able to experience a buzz from oxy without skipping my methadone dose? What about 60mg? I do know that 80mg was too high, and it blocked it then.

Your not only dreaming.....but your making life hard on people that actually need MMT.

You can't have both or everyone would be doing it. People like you need to leave methadone alone, you clearly haven't hit bottom yet.

 

[SubDude]

I have a question - What is the best dose of methadone to stay on in MMT, if I want to occasionally still use other opiates, such as my DOC (Oxycodone) recreationally?

In other words, whats the highest dose of methadone I can go on, without it completely interferring with my oxy high if I choose to use oxy on the same day?

Right now I'm on 50mg, and the clinic is going to keep me here for 3 days before I go up. Back when I went to another clinic a year ago, I was up to 80mg, which held me reallly well - but I also remember when I got that high, it started blocking other opiates.

Do you guys think I should stay at 50mg? As for withdrawals, I have to be on 50mg for a few days before I can determine if its actually enough to hold me or not. I'm hoping it is, since my tolerance has went down a decent bit since the days of being on 80mg of done.


So, if I'm on 50mg of methadone a day, should I still be able to experience a buzz from oxy without skipping my methadone dose? What about 60mg? I do know that 80mg was too high, and it blocked it then.

Going on MMT does not work well with using other opiates and as one already said... it's a waste of space unless you want to stay off street drugs. MMT is to get off street drugs and get your life back to as normal as possible. Now if you're determined to bet a buzz on MMT... just chum around with the long-termers and they will tell you everything you need to know since most have done it and found different stratagies which mostly include stockpliling takehomes and using with benzos. It's not a good way to use the MMT program and will likely lead you to a place you don't want to go. I first went on MMT in 1971 and have been off/on every since. The longer you continue to take non prescription drugs... the more likely you will go to jail, go broke, and watch your health deteriorate.

 

[villian]

MMT is to get off street drugs and get your life back to as normal as possible.

Ideally yes. In the real world though many people on MMT continue to use. This is why some clinics won't even let you maintain on low doses.

 

[supermarket]

Your not only dreaming.....but your making life hard on people that actually need MMT.

You can't have both or everyone would be doing it. People like you need to leave methadone alone, you clearly haven't hit bottom yet.

People like you need to learn not to judge, and also not see things in such a narrow minded perspective.


I don't recall anywhere stating that I'm not on the program for legitimate reasons -, however even though it is NONE of your business, I am on the program for FINANCIAL reasons.

Hit rock bottom? Ive done that many times - including losing my son, my life, my wife, my family, debt over 20grand, homeless, etc etc etc.

I know all about rock bottom - I hit that long ago, and never looked back once I got my life back together.


Im not asking about getting high on oxycodone all the time, or even every single month.

I'm asking for a stable dose of methadone, where, if I choose to take oxy one random day in one random month, I would still be able to feel it. That was ALL I was asking.

I not only do very well at my MMT program, but I've eliminated all drugs except methadone entirely. You really should reserve your judgements for YOURSELF.

Again, I was just asking for a stable, low enough dose that if I so decide to partake a few days here and there - I would be able to breakthrough.

And since your the type that loves to give your opinion, and from what i can tell thinks you know it all - let me make it clear that YES, some because can chip, SUCCESSFULLY, without it ruining their lives. I was on sub for over a year, and would do oxy maybe once a month, and never had any problems.

The only reason I'm back on methadone, it because suboxone has way too many horrible side effects for me, and methadone has none.

 

[SubDude]

Supermarket^ I hear what your saying and since your a lot like me in that you prefer methadone over subs because of the side effects. I'm going to backtrack a bit... you deserve a place on MMT as much as anyone else even if you want to still get high now and then. Your right... many do. I don't suggest using other opiates mainly because it can be a waste of money much of the time [depending on your methods] and there's always the legal exposure. Also, until you get at least two week takehomes, your subjecting yourself to dirty UA's which can get you kicked out if they see this 2-3 times. And each time they see it... you usually lose your takehomes and start back to square one.

Like I said before, I've been on/off MMT for over about 40 yrs and IME have rarely known anyone to get 'worthwhile' buzz 'from other opiates and those who did... most always eventually got kicked out after losing takehomes a few times because of the UA problems. You gotta consider the risk vs rewards issue

The best way is to use the methadone itself... along with some low dose benzos. That is... if you want the MMT/benzo nod type of buzz. I don't have to tell you that can also be dangerous for overdose. But you can also get a decent energy type of high with methadone alone if your patient enough to wait a several months until you get at least weekly takehomes [TH]. Then talk with some long term clinic users and they will advise you.

I'm referring to using a USA clinic that is open to the combination benzo/meth combination. Don't know about other countries.

Many of our MMT clinics [who do] are ok with the benzo script coming from a dr not associated with the clinic. A lot people who need benzos with meth, have PTSD and/or panic attacks.... among other conditions

BTW I can't give you personal experience on using other opiates while on MMT because I never felt the need. But then I also liked a few shots of vodka with methadone occasionally.

You probably already know this... Heres info on TH's on the US federal level but some states can be a little different

How to Get a Take Home Dose as Soon as Possible

So, if you want your take home doses as soon as possible, follow these 6 evaluatory conditions.

1.You must show (through random drug testing – a minimum of 8 instances per year) no evidence of drug abuse.
2.You must attend the clinic on your appointed schedule
3.You must show appropriate behavior
4.You must not engage in criminal activity
5.You must show a stable home and stable non drug-related relationships
6.You must promise to store take home methadone appropriately and safely
And…

1.The doctor must believe that the risks of diversion associated with giving you a take home dose of methadone are overshadowed by the benefits of easing reporting demands.
2.You must meet the minimum time in treatment regulations. (see as follows)
Essentially, you must prove to the medical staff at the clinic that you are serious about your recovery on methadone, and that you can be trusted to use methadone safely at home.

Time in Treatment Requirements

The following are mandatory minimum standards for the allowance of take home doses. You will not be allowed take home doses in excess of the following.

•Days 1-90 – A maximum of 1 scheduled take home dose per week, as well as a take home dose for one day if the clinic closes on Sunday. .[TWO TOTAL a week}
•Days 90-180 – A maximum of 2 scheduled take home doses per week as wells as a take home dose for the one day a week the clinic will close. .[THREE TOTAL a week}
•Days 180-270 – A maximum of 3 scheduled take home doses per week + 1 for days the clinic is closed. [FOUR TOTAL a week}
•Days 270-365 – Up to 6 take home doses per week.
•Year 2 - Twice a month reporting.
•Year 3 – Once a month reporting.

Local Variations

Local regulations may call for slightly more stringent protocols, but local regulations should be basically in-line with federal regulations. No patient will be allowed take home doses unless the medical director of the clinic believes they are at low risk to divert the medication.

If You Aren’t Getting the Take Homes You Deserve?

1.If you feel that your clinic is unfairly restrictive, you can meet with your doctor to discuss your compliance with federal guidelines. These guidelines are in place to allow individual clinicians the flexibility to reward "good behavior" with take home doses.
2.If that doesn’t work, you can inquire at any other local clinics about take home regulations, and perhaps find a clinic that allows for greater flexibility.
3.You can also file a grievance at your local clinic. Your clinic is required by law to have a patient grievance mechanism in place and to respond to grievances within 5 days. (From SAMHSA's Opioid Drugs in Maintenance and Detoxification Treatment of Opiate Addiction; Final Rule (42 CFR Part 8.4.(e))

Dose Caps?
SAMHSA does not endorse dose caps. Research has found that clinics that operate with maximum capped doses are operating outside of best practices guidelines.

100mg Take Home Limit?

SAMHSA does not cap take home doses. There is no federal regulation against take home doses in excess of 100 mg per day.

http://methadone.forumotion.net/t66...reporting-get-the-take-home-doses-you-deserve

There are excetions for special circumstances

http://www.dpt.samhsa.gov/regulations/exrequests.aspx

 

[Ripamaru]

People like you need to learn not to judge, and also not see things in such a narrow minded perspective.


I don't recall anywhere stating that I'm not on the program for legitimate reasons -, however even though it is NONE of your business, I am on the program for FINANCIAL reasons.

Hit rock bottom? Ive done that many times - including losing my son, my life, my wife, my family, debt over 20grand, homeless, etc etc etc.

I know all about rock bottom - I hit that long ago, and never looked back once I got my life back together.


Im not asking about getting high on oxycodone all the time, or even every single month.

I'm asking for a stable dose of methadone, where, if I choose to take oxy one random day in one random month, I would still be able to feel it. That was ALL I was asking.

I not only do very well at my MMT program, but I've eliminated all drugs except methadone entirely. You really should reserve your judgements for YOURSELF.

Again, I was just asking for a stable, low enough dose that if I so decide to partake a few days here and there - I would be able to breakthrough.

And since your the type that loves to give your opinion, and from what i can tell thinks you know it all - let me make it clear that YES, some because can chip, SUCCESSFULLY, without it ruining their lives. I was on sub for over a year, and would do oxy maybe once a month, and never had any problems.

The only reason I'm back on methadone, it because suboxone has way too many horrible side effects for me, and methadone has none.

HAHAHA

First off you are judging me while telling me not to judge.

Secondly you are not on MMT for legit reasons if you are contemplating using oxy in any way, shape, or form. You are trying to find a way to manipulate the program by keeping your methadone dose low enough to have the option to cheat while not suffering the consequences.

MMT programs are meant for people that honestly want to change their life.

You are nowhere near the only one doing it for the wrong reasons. Plenty of people go on MMT just because they can't afford to keep up their habit. Doesn't make them any less wrong.


You are still in denial about your addiction. I have been there myself. You are still chasing the high and thinking that you can manage things yourself. Despite all the crap you have been through you are still unwilling to admit that you are powerless over your addiction.


I honestly don't care what you do with your life. It's sad that your selfishness has caused so much harm to the people you are love and should take care of and that you put the drugs above your family.....but many people have been unable to beat their disease so I am not being judgmental about it honestly.

The only thing I judge is the damage people like yourself do to people that need MMT and desperately want to get better, that will never try to abuse opiates again. One day MMT may well disappear because of the abuse of it. It is certainly more expensive and harder to get on in some places because of it. Places with long waiting lists are full of people abusing it and keeping honest recovering addicts out.


I have to deal with the suspicion and bullshit caused by abusers of the system. I have to have someone watch me piss every week which is VERY hard for me to do with me having severe urinary retention with people near me. One of several things that causes me unneeded stress just because people like you want to have your cake and eat it too.

Hasn't selfishness done enough harm in your life?



It is damn sure my business when what you are doing effects me. Much more so than it is your business how I judge others.

If you aren't doing anything wrong go ask your clinic this question lol.

 

[Pegasus]

^You are no one to say what is the right and wrong way to take a drug. Maybe it is against the common procedures or whatever, but don't come in here and spout crap like this:

You are nowhere near the only one doing it for the wrong reasons. Plenty of people go on MMT just because they can't afford to keep up their habit. Doesn't make them any less wrong.


You are still in denial about your addiction. I have been there myself. You are still chasing the high and thinking that you can manage things yourself. Despite all the crap you have been through you are still unwilling to admit that you are powerless over your addiction.

Seriously, that is rude and patronizing and not how we approach people here on BL. I agree that the idea he has of trying to use oxycodone on methadone is not really a plausible one; it is the self-righteous tone of your post that I'm objecting to.

 

[Jabberwocky]

well now, let's keep things civil hey guys? people are going to have objective opinions but there's no reason for personally attacking each other.

thank you and please come again.

 

[amapola]

Ripamaru I already had to edit another of your rants in the bupe thread on the exact same issue. Your stance against the abuse of meds designed to help people get over their opiate addiction by opiate addicts isn't a problem, however your personal attacks on other users using statements of fact which are merely based on your own beliefs, mass generalizations, and all of this in a demeaning and accusatory tone are not acceptable.

If every person who came on Bluelight asking about opiates was ridiculed and harassed by people who are actually in pain and need medication we would not be able to help anyone.

edit:
By the way don't call addiction a disease and say you aren't being judgmental when you also blame people's problems on their selfishness.

 

[Ripamaru]

Anything other than following the rules of a program is by definition abusing it. How in the world can one argue that?

Secondly, selfishness is a part of the disease, a very central part of 12 step programs. This is a fact, not my opinion.

Please actually read what I say without inferring your hurt pride in it.

 

[Jabberwocky]

so everyone take the 12 step programs as fact!

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Anything other than following the rules of a program is by definition abusing it. How in the world can one argue that?

Secondly, selfishness is a part of the disease, a very central part of 12 step programs. This is a fact, not my opinion.

Please actually read what I say without inferring your hurt pride in it.

Selfishness is a virtue, you obviously haven't read my posts long enough to know otherwise.

That's besides the point; people are entitled to do what they will with their own bodies in their own lives. You can't come on Bluelight and start criticizing people for making these decisions in their own lives. It's against the BLUA.

 

[amapola]

Hey Ripamaru,

Anything other than following the rules of a program is by definition abusing it. How in the world can one argue that?

I never said it wasn't being abused. In fact I supported your argument as a valid stance on the subject. It was the tone and accusatory nature that I took offense to.

Secondly, selfishness is a part of the disease, a very central part of 12 step programs. This is a fact, not my opinion.

Besides the fact that my previous brief reading over of the 12 step program from long ago included multiple steps involving god, if selfishness is part of the disease you should blame the disease not the symptom. For example being depressed causes a lack motivation and laziness. You shouldn't tell a person suffering from depression that it's a shame they lost their job and family because they were so lazy.

Please actually read what I say without inferring your hurt pride in it.

I did read what you said multiple times and having never been addicted to opiates (therefore never on methadone nor bupe) my pride is not a part of the equation. My response to your post was purely from the point of view of a moderator of Other Drugs as well as a human being seeing you berate another.

Yelling at junkies to not abuse drugs and clean up their lives or get out of the way has been tried many times before. At Bluelight we try a different tactic of giving people suffering from addiction access to support and information in as nonjudgmental a way as possible. It might not be a perfect system but there are a lot of people who believe it's better than the way you are approaching the matter, and as it is what this forum and site stands for, following this method will be enforced.

Feel free to make your point that logically opiate addicted people shouldn't abuse medications designed to help them get off opiates as one day they may truly wish to use them completely legitamitly. Then recognize as you've said multiple times that addiction is a disease, not all addicts act in a logical manner, and at Bluelight they will still get our help and support.

 

[villian]

Selfishness is a virtue

care to elaborate? I would argue Selflessness is a virtue personally but I'm curious as to what you mean..

 

[Heroin Girl]

supermarket, I've found 50-60mg to be the best dose for holding + occasional opiate use, although I do get a bit sick at night. But imo more methadone and/or benzos provides a better buzz than other opiates do on MMT - although that combination can, of course, be dangerous. When I want to get high, I usually skip dosing the day before, although I know that's not always possible.

Anything other than following the rules of a program is by definition abusing it. How in the world can one argue that?

Secondly, selfishness is a part of the disease, a very central part of 12 step programs. This is a fact, not my opinion.

Please actually read what I say without inferring your hurt pride in it.

Are you lost?

 

[ThePharmicist]

Secondly, selfishness is a part of the disease, a very central part of 12 step programs. This is a fact, not my opinion.

The 12-step program (AA/NA) is not exactly rife with scientific fact. In your opinion, selfishness is part of the disease. When you look at the disease model of addiction and look into the complex biological and environmental processes that shape the mind of an addict I think your opinion of what exactly "selfishness" is would be quite different.

It's been shown that drug addiction can effectively undermine voluntary control, which to some may be interpreted as selfishness when in actuality it's due to dysfunction in several different key functions in the brain.

You know what's ridiculous? Ridiculing a drug addict for *gasp* using drugs! Even if a person is using MMT or BMT and uses doesn't mean that they are a bad person or abusing the system. They have a disease and just like with any other chronic disease treatment approaches are utilized to minimize the symptoms rather than cure the disease. That's exactly what's going on here, I commend supermarket for stepping in the right direction, and if he uses or ends up using while on methadone, it is what it is. At least supermarket is speaking in terms of moderation right now. If his goal is the reduction of negative effects and consequences than he's doing great by starting MMT in the first place.

In short, supermarket's goals are his goals alone. Whether he strives for moderation or complete abstinence I'd support him throughout. And if the only thing he could do is continue to use I'd try to help him do it in the safest way possible.