• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

L-Theanine: Is Suntheanine the best?

Potentiating psychedelics is surely accomplishable via many other techniques. How about using the inactive PEAs or Trypts?

I'm sure some of these are really only activating part of what's required for a 5HT2a psychedelic.
 
A)Theanine BLUNTS out psychedelics.


i take 1g of theanine when i cant sleep when i taken lsd or mdma...

Well, 1g is a pretty high dose. I know of a couple people who, pre-tolerance, feel drunk from 400mg theanine, so it's not surprising that psychedelic effects might be blunted from a higher dose. It is sedating after all.

One probably irrelevant thought about your experience is I always considered Periactin (cyproheptadine) to have a somewhat similar profile to L-theanine in terms of overall functional effect, enough for me to suggest it to someone as a replacement for theanine. Periactin, like theanine, is dopaminergic (via serotonin receptor antagonism) and sedating. If someone finds theanine to be a good sleep aid, they might have good results with Periactin as well, Periactin being found to increase sleep quality. It also apparently inhibits CA++ outflow, which is kind of like NMDA antagonism (come to think of it I'm not sure how theanine goes about doing that). They have similar half-lives. Periactin definitely blocks psychedelic effects from 5HT2a agonists (this is borne out in research), as it antagonizes 5HT2A. Although I am in the camp that says that 5HT2A agonist psychedelics are functionally antiserotonergic also.

only way to "potentiate" stimulants is selective enzyme inhbitors (Quercetin)or, piracetam.

There are plenty of other ways to "potentiate" stimulants IMO. Basifying the urine ... mu opioid agonists potentiate stimulant-induced behavior in studies ... memantine potentiates things for me in a way ... novel situations ... etc.

also if anyone was wondering Selegiline (deprenyl) blunts out a lot of the "positive" effects of d-amphetamine/meth

I take selegiline and I find it very significantly potentiates my d-amp, providing motivation and focus. However, I take very low doses -- around .325 mg orally or .150mg sublingually -- with or without dextroamphetamine, higher doses make me extremely jittery and emotionless with overfocusing perseveration. I know of at least two other people who need to take similarly low doses. I suspect the mechanism making higher doses uncomfortable for us is not the highly trace amphetamine metabolites, but a somewhat mysterious positive interaction of selegiline with adrenoreceptors:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...ez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
 
Advanc3d- I'd agree with grue also. There are many other ways of potentiating stimulants other than what you listed. And I have to completely disagree with "Selegiline (deprenyl) blunts out a lot of the "positive" effects of d-amphetamine/meth". I take Selegiline like grue, and it's probably the most effective 'poteniator' I've come across.

Surprisingly, I'm on 12 mg daily of transdermal Selegiline. And I know that it can be very unsafe but I've started very low with my amphetamine dosing and now I've worked my way up to about 30-40 mg amphetamine daily (mostly due to tolerance).
 
Some interesting reads:
The acute effects of L-theanine in comparison with alprazolam on anticipatory anxiety in humans.
[My paper] Kristy Lu, Marcus A Gray, Chris Oliver, David T Liley, Ben J Harrison, Cali F Bartholomeusz, K Luan Phan, Pradeep J Nathan
Neuropsychopharmacology Laboratory, Brain Sciences Institute, Swinburne, University of Technology, Victoria, Australia.
L-Theanine (delta-glutamylethylamide) is one of the predominant amino acids ordinarily found in green tea, and historically has been used as a relaxing agent. The current study examined the acute effects of L-theanine in comparison with a standard benzodiazepine anxiolytic, alprazolam and placebo on behavioural measures of anxiety in healthy human subjects using the model of anticipatory anxiety (AA). Sixteen healthy volunteers received alprazolam (1 mg), L-theanine (200 mg) or placebo in a double-blind placebo-controlled repeated measures design. The acute effects of alprazolam and L-theanine were assessed under a relaxed and experimentally induced anxiety condition. Subjective self-reports of anxiety including BAI, VAMS, STAI state anxiety, were obtained during both task conditions at pre- and post-drug administrations. The results showed some evidence for relaxing effects of L-theanine during the baseline condition on the tranquil-troubled subscale of the VAMS. Alprazolam did not exert any anxiolytic effects in comparison with the placebo on any of the measures during the relaxed state. Neither L-theanine nor alprazalam had any significant anxiolytic effects during the experimentally induced anxiety state. The findings suggest that while L-theanine may have some relaxing effects under resting conditions, neither L-theanine not alprazolam demonstrate any acute anxiolytic effects under conditions of increased anxiety in the AA model.
The Neuropharmacology of L-Theanine(N-Ethyl-L-Glutamine):A Possible Neuroprotective and Cognitive Enhancing Agent.
[My paper] Pradeep J Nathan, Kristy Lu, M Gray, C Oliver
, PO Box 13F, VI, 3800, Australia, [email protected].
L-theanine (<i>N</i>-ethyl-L-glutamine) or theanine is a major amino acid uniquely found in green tea. L-theanine has been historically reported as a relaxing agent, prompting scientific research on its pharmacology. Animal neurochemistry studies suggest that L-theanine increases brain serotonin, dopamine, GABA levels and has micromolar affinities for AMPA, Kainate and NMDA receptors. In addition has been shown to exert neuroprotective effects in animal models possibly through its antagonistic effects on group 1 metabotrophic glutamate receptors. Behavioural studies in animals suggest improvement in learning and memory. Overall, L-theanine displays a neuropharmacology suggestive of a possible neuroprotective and cognitive enhancing agent and warrants further investigation in animals and humans. doi:10.1300/ J157v06n02_02.
Theanine, an ingredient of green tea, inhibits [(3)H]glutamine transport in neurons and astroglia in rat brain.
[My paper] Takami Kakuda, Eiichi Hinoi, Akihiro Abe, Ayumu Nozawa, Masato Ogura, Yukio Yoneda
Central Research Institute, Itoen Ltd., Makinohara City, Shizuoka, Japan.
We have previously shown that theanine (=gamma-glutamylethylamide), an ingredient of green tea, has a protective effect against ischemic neuronal death in the hippocampal CA1 region of the gerbil brain without affecting ligand binding to ionotropic receptor subtypes of the neurotransmitter glutamate structurally related to theanine. The neurotransmitter pool of glutamate is thought to be fueled by the entry of the other structural analog glutamine (Gln) and subsequent cleavage by glutaminase. Although theanine did not inhibit [(3)H]glutamate accumulation, [(3)H]theanine was actively accumulated in a temperature-dependent and saturable manner in rat brain synaptosomal fractions. The accumulation of [(3)H]theanine was markedly inhibited by Gln in a concentration-dependent manner, whereas [(3)H]Gln accumulation was inhibited by theanine vice versa. Both [(3)H]theanine and [(3)H]Gln accumulations were decreased after the replacement of sodium chloride with choline chloride, along with similarly high distribution profiles in telencephalic structures. A similar equilibrium was observed within 30 min at 30 degrees C for the accumulations of both [(3)H]theanine and [(3)H]Gln in cultured rat neocortical astroglia as well as neurons, whereas theanine inhibited [(3)H]Gln accumulation in a concentration-dependent manner at 0.1-10 mM. Furthermore, sustained exposure to 10 mM theanine led to a significant decrease in the level of extracellular glutamate released from cultured neurons. These results suggest that the green tea ingredient theanine would be an inhibitor of different transporters capable of transporting Gln across plasma membranes toward the modulation of the glutamate/Gln cycle required for the neurotransmitter pool of glutamate in neurons. (c) 2008 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
Involvement of GABA(A) Receptors in the Neuroprotective Effect of Theanine on Focal Cerebral Ischemia in Mice.
[My paper] Nobuaki Egashira, Kazuhide Hayakawa, Megumi Osajima, Kenichi Mishima, Katsunori Iwasaki, Ryozo Oishi, Michihiro Fujiwara
We investigated the involvement of gamma-aminobutyric acid(A) (GABA(A)) receptors in the neuroprotective effect of gamma-glutamylethylamide (theanine), a component of Japanese green tea, following a 4-h middle cerebral artery (MCA) occlusion in mice. Theanine (1 mg/kg) reduced the size of the cerebral infarct and alterations of NeuN, GFAP, and Iba 1 expression levels at 24 h after MCA occlusion. This neuroprotective effect of theanine was prevented by bicuculline (GABA(A)-receptor antagonist, 10 mg/kg) but not 3-mercaptopropionic acid (glutamate decarboxylase inhibitor). These results suggest that the neuroprotective effect of theanine is mediated, at least in part, by GABA(A) receptors.
The effects of l-theanine, caffeine and their combination on cognition and mood.
[My paper] Crystal F Haskell, David O Kennedy, Anthea L Milne, Keith A Wesnes, Andrew B Scholey
l-Theanine is an amino acid found naturally in tea. Despite the common consumption of l-theanine, predominantly in combination with caffeine in the form of tea, only one study to date has examined the cognitive effects of this substance alone, and none have examined its effects when combined with caffeine. The present randomised, placebo-controlled, double-blind, balanced crossover study investigated the acute cognitive and mood effects of l-theanine (250mg), and caffeine (150mg), in isolation and in combination. Salivary caffeine levels were co-monitored. l-Theanine increased 'headache' ratings and decreased correct serial seven subtractions. Caffeine led to faster digit vigilance reaction time, improved Rapid Visual Information Processing (RVIP) accuracy and attenuated increases in self-reported 'mental fatigue'. In addition to improving RVIP accuracy and 'mental fatigue' ratings, the combination also led to faster simple reaction time, faster numeric working memory reaction time and improved sentence verification accuracy. 'Headache' and 'tired' ratings were reduced and 'alert' ratings increased. There was also a significant positive caffeinexl-theanine interaction on delayed word recognition reaction time. These results suggest that beverages containing l-theanine and caffeine may have a different pharmacological profile to those containing caffeine alone.
Theanine, r-glutamylethylamide, increases neurotransmission concentrations and neurotrophin mRNA levels in the brain during lactation.
[My paper] Takashi Yamada, Takehiko Terashima, Keiko Wada, Sakiko Ueda, Mitsuyo Ito, Tsutomu Okubo, Lekh Raj Juneja, Hidehiko Yokogoshi
Theanine (r-glutamylethylamide) is one of the major amino acid components in green tea. Recent studies suggest that theanine affects neurotransmission, especially inhibitory neurotransmission. In this study, we investigated whether theanine affects brain development in infant rats, because inhibitory neurotransmission is required for mature brain function. Mother rats were fed theanine ad libitum after confinement. The body weight gain rate of infants was not different from control infants. We detected theanine in the infant serum and measured neurotransmitter concentration and nerve growth factor (NGF) mRNA level in the infant rat brain. Some neurotransmitters, including dopamine, serotonin, glycine and GABA concentration, increased in the infant brain and NGF mRNA level increased in the cerebral cortex and hippocampus. However, these differences were lost by the end of nerve maturity. These results suggest that theanine enhanced synthesis of nerve growth factor and neurotransmitters during a nerve maturing period and promoted central nerve system maturation (CNS). Thus, theanine accelerated maturation. In conclusion, theanine may assist in healthy brain function development.
 
That study says L-Theanine in the absence of caffeine decreases your ability to substract from seven?

Odd.
 
grue said:
Well, 1g is a pretty high dose. I know of a couple people who, pre-tolerance, feel drunk from 400mg theanine, so it's not surprising that psychedelic effects might be blunted from a higher dose. It is sedating after all.

One probably irrelevant thought about your experience is I always considered Periactin (cyproheptadine) to have a somewhat similar profile to L-theanine in terms of overall functional effect, enough for me to suggest it to someone as a replacement for theanine. Periactin, like theanine, is dopaminergic (via serotonin receptor antagonism) and sedating. If someone finds theanine to be a good sleep aid, they might have good results with Periactin as well, Periactin being found to increase sleep quality. It also apparently inhibits CA++ outflow, which is kind of like NMDA antagonism (come to think of it I'm not sure how theanine goes about doing that). They have similar half-lives. Periactin definitely blocks psychedelic effects from 5HT2a agonists (this is borne out in research), as it antagonizes 5HT2A. Although I am in the camp that says that 5HT2A agonist psychedelics are functionally antiserotonergic also.



There are plenty of other ways to "potentiate" stimulants IMO. Basifying the urine ... mu opioid agonists potentiate stimulant-induced behavior in studies ... memantine potentiates things for me in a way ... novel situations ... etc.



I take selegiline and I find it very significantly potentiates my d-amp, providing motivation and focus. However, I take very low doses -- around .325 mg orally or .150mg sublingually -- with or without dextroamphetamine, higher doses make me extremely jittery and emotionless with overfocusing perseveration. I know of at least two other people who need to take similarly low doses. I suspect the mechanism making higher doses uncomfortable for us is not the highly trace amphetamine metabolites, but a somewhat mysterious positive interaction of selegiline with adrenoreceptors:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...ez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

how do you measure 0.xxx mg?
the lowest scale i find measures in 10mg increments.


That is strange then, considering i orally consume 2.5mg w/food of selegiline for weeks on and take d-amphetamine and feel no "good" feeling. i just get talkative and slightly energised and thats it. usually when i take d-amp i get the euphoria with a lot of energy but not with selegline.

but indeed mdma and selegiline is possibly the best combo, last time i took half of a average pill and felt like i double dumped and im a person who has a medium-high tolerance
 
Ham-milton said:
That study says L-Theanine in the absence of caffeine decreases your ability to substract from seven?

Odd.
LoL. The whole procedure seems odd to me.
Validity of the serial seven procedure
Peter Karzmark *
Neuropsychology Service, Department of Neurology, Stanford University Medical Center, California, USA

Abstract
Serial subtraction by seven (Serial Seven Test, SST) is frequently used in mental status evaluation for dementia as a measure of concentration. Validation research on the SST has been limited. The literature to date raises significant concern about the nature of the procedure. The purpose of the present study was to evaluate the nature and validity of the SST. The participants were 80 consecutive outpatient referrals to the neuropsychology consultation service of two large general medical hospitals. All subjects were administered a comprehensive neuropsychological assessment battery, including the Mini Mental State Examination version of the SST. Multiple regression analysis indicated that calculation skill is at least as important as concentration, in predicting SST performance. Measures of overall level of cognitive dysfunction, education, and psychopathology were unrelated to SST performance. The results suggest that SST performance is heavily influenced by basic arithmetic skill and that the procedure should be used with caution as a measure of concentration or other nonacademic mental abilities.
 
I just took it on a DXM afterglow and had a anxiety attack. Normally it is alright but don't mix with DXM if you are prone to anxiety.
 
I'm still messed up a little from L-Theanine mixed with DXM. Made my afterglow kinda scary. Horrible combination.
 
^ ^

To be honest I don't thing I've ever taken 1g in a single sitting. That's a good question though, I may have to try that soon, once my new shipment of bulk powder arrives

I certainly believe so, but it's different than any other amphetamine-potentiator I've used. I definitely increases the euphoria. It kinda takes the edge and any excess tension side-effects away but leaves the euphoria (and adds to it). Which is why Theanine is especially handy when taking large doses of amps, really smooths things out. Theanine + Amps make a great study combo. Theanine + Amps + Buprenorphine is one of my favorite recreational combos. Add some coca leaf in there to chew on and I'm in euphoric heaven.

Being an NMDA Antagonist like you said, it may be effective for keeping tolerances down. And about the MDMA, I can't comment on that since I've never taken them together. It would seem that it would be a good combo though.

I wonder what L-Theanine's affinities are for the receptors it acts upon...anyone know?


ARGH!!! I can't send a PM STILL!!! So frustrating!!
Sorry to have to do this publically, but because I can't PM mitragyna directly I'm just gonna have to Copy&Paste it here, sorry people:

"hey man,

just read a post of yours regarding you passion for l-theanine when it comes to anxiety etc...
i find l-theanine really helps me as well, both in terms of anxiety and socialising, but as well as concentration, focus and memory - it's a great all round supplement!

I just have 2 questions for you, though:

1) What dose do you take to get decent effects from it? You said (in this post) that you always carry a bunch around with you, but how many mg's d'you reckon is a good 'calming' dose for you? It usually takes me about 300-500mg to actually feel properly relaxed and actually like I'm "on" something, but maybe I don't need to feel that; maybe I just need to get it's effects but not "notice" them, so-to-speak. Plus it's quite expensive stuff here in the UK so if I could cut it down to less that'd be more economical...

2) You said you had these chewable tabs which you carried around...? I'm VERY interested in these, as the only ones I can find are capsules and I'm getting tired of swallowing bulk capsules all the time. Do you have a link.

Any other info much appreciated as well :)

Cheers"

On another note --> HOW LONG BEFORE I CAN SEND PM'S?!?!
 
ARGH!!! I can't send a PM STILL!!! So frustrating!!
Sorry to have to do this publically, but because I can't PM mitragyna directly I'm just gonna have to Copy&Paste it here, sorry people:

"hey man,

just read a post of yours regarding you passion for l-theanine when it comes to anxiety etc...
i find l-theanine really helps me as well, both in terms of anxiety and socialising, but as well as concentration, focus and memory - it's a great all round supplement!

I just have 2 questions for you, though:

1) What dose do you take to get decent effects from it? You said (in this post) that you always carry a bunch around with you, but how many mg's d'you reckon is a good 'calming' dose for you? It usually takes me about 300-500mg to actually feel properly relaxed and actually like I'm "on" something, but maybe I don't need to feel that; maybe I just need to get it's effects but not "notice" them, so-to-speak. Plus it's quite expensive stuff here in the UK so if I could cut it down to less that'd be more economical...

2) You said you had these chewable tabs which you carried around...? I'm VERY interested in these, as the only ones I can find are capsules and I'm getting tired of swallowing bulk capsules all the time. Do you have a link.

Any other info much appreciated as well :)

Cheers"

On another note --> HOW LONG BEFORE I CAN SEND PM'S?!?!

Howdy! It's good to see other people are utilizing this fantastic substance.

Now, to answer your questions:

1. For me, a good calming dose is around 400 mg. Even 200 mg would help with any anxiety, but I prefer at least 400 mg to really do the job. But I would just recommend experimenting, since everyone responds differently to different substances. If you haven't already...start with 100 mg, then move up in 50-100 mg increments until you find a good dose to quell any anxiety.

2. Check your PM's.

I think you can start PM-ing other members when you hit 20 posts.
 
lol I wonder if L-theanine would help you get over a dxm addiction
or getting off of gabapentin (or one of its derivatives)
 
lol I wonder if L-theanine would help you get over a dxm addiction
or getting off of gabapentin (or one of its derivatives)
I certainly think it would help. Especially since it raises GABA levels in the brain. It also affects many other "happy" neurotransmitters.
 
but can it be used to wean one off of a addiction to alcohol/benzos/GHB? that is the true test of
any GABA-tweaking treatment in my opinion
 
Please be realistic, there is nothing that can help wean you off of those strong GABAergenics besides more benzos. This supplement however may have potential in helping a person stay clean in the post addiction phase where anxiety becomes quite crippling. Even if you were told it could help, would you really risk a seizure to try this out?
 
how do you measure 0.xxx mg?
the lowest scale i find measures in 10mg increments.


That is strange then, considering i orally consume 2.5mg w/food of selegiline for weeks on and take d-amphetamine and feel no "good" feeling. i just get talkative and slightly energised and thats it. usually when i take d-amp i get the euphoria with a lot of energy but not with selegline.

but indeed mdma and selegiline is possibly the best combo, last time i took half of a average pill and felt like i double dumped and im a person who has a medium-high tolerance

your baseline dopamine is therefore higher after weeks of segeline so your desensitised receptors percieve less effe3ct. yo!
 
your baseline dopamine is therefore higher after weeks of segeline so your desensitised receptors percieve less effe3ct. yo!

Hmm, this is interesting.

I take 2.5mg Selegiline everyday. Obviously this means that my average dopamine levels are higher due to it's MAO-B inhibition.

However, I didn't really think it through before starting to take it; what effect it would have on my dopamine receptors...

Say I was to take 2.5mg Selegiline everyday for two weeks - this would only result in MAO-B inhibition (as it is still a low dose): my dopamine receptors will be downregulated/de-sensitized, right? So then how long would I have to abstain from Selegiline use until my dopamine receptors had returned to normal? (i.e. I would be able to fee dopamine-acting drugs)

2 weeks is the average time for an irreversible MOAI to stop having it's effect, but I've read that other resulting effects can last up to 40, even 50 days!

I like taking Deprenyl (Selegiline Hcl) but not if it will have too much interference with other drugs. That being said, I mostly like downers and GABA acting drugs; opiates etc... so I guess dopamine inhibition is not that major. I could just take L-Tyrosine or DLPA daily I guess...?
 
Hmm, this is interesting.

I take 2.5mg Selegiline everyday. Obviously this means that my average dopamine levels are higher due to it's MAO-B inhibition.

However, I didn't really think it through before starting to take it; what effect it would have on my dopamine receptors...

Say I was to take 2.5mg Selegiline everyday for two weeks - this would only result in MAO-B inhibition (as it is still a low dose): my dopamine receptors will be downregulated/de-sensitized, right? So then how long would I have to abstain from Selegiline use until my dopamine receptors had returned to normal? (i.e. I would be able to fee dopamine-acting drugs)

2 weeks is the average time for an irreversible MOAI to stop having it's effect, but I've read that other resulting effects can last up to 40, even 50 days!

I like taking Deprenyl (Selegiline Hcl) but not if it will have too much interference with other drugs. That being said, I mostly like downers and GABA acting drugs; opiates etc... so I guess dopamine inhibition is not that major. I could just take L-Tyrosine or DLPA daily I guess...?
It was always in my knowledge that MAOIs potentiated stimulants in general. I just can't see how an MAOI would weaken the effects of these drugs...
 
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